Azthor Posted April 17, 2014 Report Posted April 17, 2014 Log, Azull's courtesy (I will add an edited and cleaned up version of the lecture in the next few days, as I reckon I broke my previous line of thought around 21:20 ST). [spoiler] [15/04/14 15:09] :Ars Alchemy arives early to sweet the floor and set up chairs [15/04/14 15:09] Ars Alchemy: (*sweep) [15/04/14 19:32] papaver:Hello all! Nervous, Azkhael? [15/04/14 19:32] :Gljivoje cheers papaver [15/04/14 19:33] papaver:Hi Glji! I found myself a training partner! [15/04/14 19:34] Gljivoje:nice one! training partner is something great to have [15/04/14 19:36] papaver:Only I am much stronger than he is. So we have to be very careful. [15/04/14 19:37] Azkhael:Greetings. [15/04/14 19:38] Azkhael:Perhaps. I am used to it; then again, it is a different audience from what I am accustomed to, so there is a bit of anxiety involved, of course. :) [15/04/14 19:38] Gljivoje:well, strength doesn't play that much part, i'd say. its a beautiful fighting system with plenty of possibilities. [15/04/14 19:38] Gljivoje:Hello Azkhael, they're all positive feelings. [15/04/14 19:40] papaver:Where is your lecture about, Azkhael? [15/04/14 19:42] Azkhael:Formally? Online communities as semi-autonomous social systems, but it is much more straightforward than the title would imply. [15/04/14 19:43] Gljivoje:Oh, greatness! I thought it would be something roleplay md related. [15/04/14 19:43] Azkhael:Ah, I suppose that the announcement left a lot of room for interpretation. :P [15/04/14 19:44] Gljivoje:indeed, but my interest grew much higher suddenly [15/04/14 19:45] Azkhael:I am glad to hear that. [15/04/14 19:45] papaver:Are your feelings positive or negative about those social systems? [15/04/14 19:46] Azkhael:It would be hard to attribute a positive or negative attribute to them as a whole. [15/04/14 19:47] Azkhael:Rather, it is an observable phenomena. [15/04/14 19:48] Gljivoje:yeah, i'd say it have much positiveness but that also gives certain negativeness. depends on angle of watching. [15/04/14 19:49] Azkhael:Of course, I could make one such a judgement towards a specific community, such as MD; observed that my own judgement would be subjective to my social background. [15/04/14 19:50] Azkhael:Or, in other words, my particular moral values. [15/04/14 19:50] Azkhael:Back in five minutes, I will have lunch now so that we don't need a pause in the middle of the lecture. [15/04/14 19:53] :papaver scratches her head [15/04/14 19:55] papaver:Where are the others? [15/04/14 19:59] :Gljivoje shrugs [15/04/14 20:05] Gljivoje:is there some item collecting place here in the Archives? [15/04/14 20:05] papaver:I really wouldn't know. [15/04/14 20:06] Gljivoje:it's alright. Maybe Azkh will know when he returns or Ars there. [15/04/14 20:06] papaver:He/she is asleep. [15/04/14 20:08] Gljivoje:oh, alright [15/04/14 20:09] papaver:Did you get a present? [15/04/14 20:10] Gljivoje:i don't think i did, no [15/04/14 20:11] Azkhael:And done. Excuse me for the delay. [15/04/14 20:11] papaver:Oh. Because you want to go to such a place, I thought so. [15/04/14 20:12] papaver:Well, as you can see the others still are not here. [15/04/14 20:12] Gljivoje:Ah that, no, I need to collect some usual item, a water bucket *smiles* [15/04/14 20:12] Azkhael:I have the time to spare, but a schedule is a schedule. I leave it up to you who are present whether you'd rather wait for more players. [15/04/14 20:13] papaver:I agree with you. Let us start. [15/04/14 20:13] Gljivoje:well Azkhael, it's all the same to me really. [15/04/14 20:14] Gljivoje:If you have time, maybe you can wait others, if there'll be some [15/04/14 20:14] :Gljivoje shrugs [15/04/14 20:15] papaver:Do you want to become a water dowser Glji? [15/04/14 20:16] Gljivoje:every land has some resources unique for it, so when you become it's citizen you can gather them with certain tools/items that you can get. [15/04/14 20:16] Azkhael:I shot a reminder in the mood panel; we will start at 20:20 ST regardless of attendance. [15/04/14 20:17] Gljivoje:so, for example, every citizen of MarindBell can receive a bucket and gather water, for example. [15/04/14 20:17] :Gljivoje nods [15/04/14 20:17] papaver:But there is that alliance too, right? [15/04/14 20:18] BFH the Green:this is happening [15/04/14 20:18] darkraptor:yep!! [15/04/14 20:18] BFH the Green:I will port people here [15/04/14 20:18] darkraptor:thank you BFH [15/04/14 20:19] :Azkhael nods [15/04/14 20:21] :Azkhael clears his throat [15/04/14 20:21] Gljivoje:yes, papaver, to your question [15/04/14 20:21] :darkraptor will poke BFH [15/04/14 20:23] Azkhael:We are starting; should anyone miss part of the lecture, a log will be available afterwards. [15/04/14 20:23] papaver:Hi Occamrazor! [15/04/14 20:23] Occamrazor:thanks [15/04/14 20:23] Occamrazor:hi [15/04/14 20:23] :BFH the Green failed to cast a spell [15/04/14 20:24] darkraptor:some are already walking this way [15/04/14 20:24] darkraptor:yet a jump would be nice :-P [15/04/14 20:24] Azull:thank you [15/04/14 20:25] Seigheart:Oh yay [15/04/14 20:25] Gljivoje:nice one [15/04/14 20:25] Azkhael:To those present at the end of the lecture, as an arbitrary mark, or those present beforehand who PM me tot hat effect, a subsequent quest based on the lecture will be offered. [15/04/14 20:25] Azkhael:More on that later. [15/04/14 20:25] :papaver applauds for Azkhael [15/04/14 20:25] Azkhael: (to that effect*) [15/04/14 20:26] :[Spell] Portal of Light Azkhael's Lecture - MDA Main Lobby [15/04/14 20:26] :Occamrazor is excited to visit this new place [15/04/14 20:27] MRAlyon:hey all [15/04/14 20:27] Occamrazor:yay! quests rock [15/04/14 20:30] :Seigheart passed Sand Castle to Azull [15/04/14 20:30] :Rikstar sits down on the staircase. [15/04/14 20:31] Ary Endleg:did I miss it? [15/04/14 20:31] Azkhael:Not at all. [15/04/14 20:31] Azull:thank you Seigh. please enough now :)) [15/04/14 20:31] Ary Endleg:lecture I mean [15/04/14 20:32] Azkhael:I chose to wait longer due to the sudden influx; but I suppose we've waited long enough. [15/04/14 20:32] Occamrazor:'ello endleg [15/04/14 20:33] Ary Endleg:awesome [15/04/14 20:33] Ary Endleg:hello [15/04/14 20:33] Seigheart:lol you only got that cuz you have another, and this one was a necrovion sand castle :P [15/04/14 20:33] Azull:I saw :)) One day you have to tellme what happened to the tower [15/04/14 20:34] :BFH the Green failed to cast a spell [15/04/14 20:35] BFH the Green:afk [15/04/14 20:35] Seigheart:Hehe :P [15/04/14 20:35] Seigheart:Its a neat story. :P [15/04/14 20:35] Seigheart:Murs fault, like usual lol [15/04/14 20:36] :Azull chuckles [15/04/14 20:37] :Seigheart passed Guardian's Ring to Rikstar [15/04/14 20:38] lashtal:I'm curious about this lecture... [15/04/14 20:38] papaver:Me too! [15/04/14 20:38] Rikstar:Thank you Seigh. [15/04/14 20:38] Gljivoje:to me personally, the subject of it is awesome [15/04/14 20:39] Seigheart:Thank me by using them well [15/04/14 20:40] :Occamrazor is bouncing slightly in anticipation [15/04/14 20:40] Azkhael:A few things, before we start: [15/04/14 20:40] Azkhael:I ask that you feel free to ask questions at any time during the lecture should anything seem dubious; for miscellaneous questions, I will openly signal a few moments during the lecture for such. [15/04/14 20:41] :Occamrazor nods [15/04/14 20:41] Azkhael:I will not answer PMs during the lecture, though, should you have to leave early, you are encouraged to send me a PM so that I may count you as present in the aftermath for the purpose of the (cont) [15/04/14 20:41] Azkhael:subsequent quest. [15/04/14 20:42] Azkhael:The log will be available in the forums after the lecture. [15/04/14 20:43] Azkhael:As the announcement did not specify it, the lecture's theme is, in fact, not directly related to MD, though very closely tied nevertheless: "online communities as semi-autonomous social systems". [15/04/14 20:44] Azkhael:For those familiar, this heavily draws from Durkheim's methodology; due temporal parallels observed. [15/04/14 20:45] Rikstar:One question, do you study these kind of subjects? [15/04/14 20:45] Azkhael:Laterally; my field of specialty is Law, not sociology. [15/04/14 20:47] :Ary Endleg makes note: Azk is possible candidate for supstituting Mur [15/04/14 20:47] Azkhael:First, for a few general considerations on the statement of that theme. [15/04/14 20:50] Azkhael:Online communities can be analyzed as social systems with inherent values, but, unlike an actual society, we cannot claim those values are truly autonomous. [15/04/14 20:52] Azkhael:We, as individuals, are, in mainstream epistemology, in large part defined by our experience within society, joining a greater framework of values. [15/04/14 20:53] Azkhael:Whether our close family, acquaintances or even the scenery, we are coerced into a given notion of right. [15/04/14 20:53] Azkhael:That extends as deep as our very notion of beauty, strange as it may sound. [15/04/14 20:54] Azkhael:Even if we admit certain universal standards of beauty to exists (harmony) , ultimately there are many culturally defined nuances. [15/04/14 20:56] Azkhael:It'd be naive to see society as a construct exerting one-sided influence, of course; likewise, the individual components of society shape it across history. [15/04/14 20:56] Azkhael:Unconsciously so, often enough; that is what is characterized as "habit". [15/04/14 20:57] Azkhael:The classic methodology in sociology does away with such a complex interaction, for the sake of society's study, not because analyzing those interactions in such depth is, so far, unattainable. [15/04/14 20:58] Azkhael:Something further developed by the maturing of psychology and, particularly, psychiatry. [15/04/14 20:59] Azkhael:Note, for such methodology, society should never be approached as that two-sided interaction, but rather, an aggregate of social facts that cannot be decomposed into their individual parts. [15/04/14 20:59] Azkhael:An irreducible collective consciousness. [15/04/14 21:00] Rikstar:May I ask what methodology is, I tried to google it but I don't get simple answers. [15/04/14 21:01] Azkhael:Certainly. [15/04/14 21:01] Ary Endleg:it can't be decompossed yet it can be easily altered by the changes in individuals? [15/04/14 21:02] Azkhael:First, to address Rikstar, methodology is the aggregate of approaches utilized by a field to study its subject, often in empiric fashion. [15/04/14 21:03] Azkhael:Or an attempt to emulate it, in social fields. [15/04/14 21:04] Gljivoje:different methods for different approaches [15/04/14 21:04] Rikstar:Ah thank you for explaining. :) [15/04/14 21:04] BFH the Green: (in simple words methodology is a way of doing things. like for the goal of reaching this place you could have walked, you could have jumped, or beign teleported. All acomplish the same goal but all ) [15/04/14 21:04] BFH the Green: (lead to the same result) [15/04/14 21:05] BFH the Green: (and I'm NOT here :P - sorry for interrupting) [15/04/14 21:05] Rikstar: ( *chuckles* ) [15/04/14 21:06] Azkhael:As for the second point, abstractly, society is molded by its component individuals and molds them in turn, but in truth, that is an artificial construction for the sake of analysis. Ultimately (cont) [15/04/14 21:06] BFH the Green: (many last sentence should have stated, all lead to the same goal but all used a different method or methodology) [15/04/14 21:06] BFH the Green: (my*) [15/04/14 21:07] Azkhael:there is no such a thing as a society, but rather, individuals influencing each other. [15/04/14 21:07] Ary Endleg:now that is something I agree with [15/04/14 21:07] Azkhael:Likewise, that we render one such an abstraction irreducible is a choice of methodology, due to our inability to work with those individual parts. [15/04/14 21:08] :Ary Endleg nods [15/04/14 21:10] Azkhael:It is important to keep that (reality) in min, even as one works with the abstraction. [15/04/14 21:10] Azkhael:mind* [15/04/14 21:11] :Occamrazor mumbles my name is methodology [15/04/14 21:12] Azkhael:Modern sociology, in no small part due tot he development in other fields, and the overcoming of an ideological dispute that established sociology as an autonomous field in the first place, has (cont) [15/04/14 21:12] Azkhael:been more attentive to the individuals as agent and subject of sociology; that is microsociology. [15/04/14 21:13] Azkhael:But it is ultimately only usable in analysis of limited scope. [15/04/14 21:14] Azkhael: (analyses*) [15/04/14 21:15] Azkhael:Alas, I tend to divague. [15/04/14 21:17] Azkhael:Once you've taken a society for an irreducible aggregate of social facts, you are able to study those facts with relative objectivity. [15/04/14 21:17] Azkhael:If history's goal is to show what was, sociology's goal would be to show why it was so. [15/04/14 21:17] Azkhael:By applying the presumption of causality upon those social facts across history. [15/04/14 21:18] Azkhael:Similarly, you have axiology, that particularly studies the values inherent in a society. [15/04/14 21:19] Azkhael:Those social facts, though abstractions, imply a series of determinisms that shape our moral framework and habit. [15/04/14 21:19] Rikstar:Could there ever be something as having no society? [15/04/14 21:20] Azkhael:I cannot give you an answer there, but as long as there is human interaction, as humans are, one'd be inclined to say no, there cannot. [15/04/14 21:20] Azkhael:Even a state of complete anarchy still constitutes a society. [15/04/14 21:20] Gljivoje:society can always be, just following different patterns towards one another [15/04/14 21:22] Miq:look at me! I'm A society [15/04/14 21:22] Azkhael:In fact, Anarchy precisely relies upon a common moral framework to render the State redundant. [15/04/14 21:22] Azkhael:Hence its idealism. [15/04/14 21:23] Azkhael:Communism, as opposed to socialism, though given a materialist focus, follows likewise. [15/04/14 21:23] Ary Endleg:how about... individuals stuck in cryogenic chambers in statis in some secret underground facility that runs on thermal power and all of humanity everywhere else is extinct [15/04/14 21:24] Azkhael:You could not speak of a society, because there are no active human beings in the world. [15/04/14 21:24] Azkhael:Admittedly, for all purposes, thus frozen they are dead. [15/04/14 21:24] Miq:There is no difference between communism and capitalism other thant the means to the end [15/04/14 21:24] Ary Endleg:potentially not if aliens show up and unfreeze them for experiements *grins* [15/04/14 21:25] Azkhael:They were still dead, however, though later revived. *chuckles* [15/04/14 21:25] Occamrazor:considering that it is no society seems kinda not just humanity that has society of some sort, but also most other types of living creature, the idea of no society, as we understand it seems unlikely. [15/04/14 21:26] Miq:What do you think society is [15/04/14 21:27] Gljivoje:i'd say it's a discussion with much variables and ways of thinking [15/04/14 21:27] Miq:it's just a mixture of gains [15/04/14 21:27] Azkhael:Human society is humans influencing humans, in an extreme reductionism. [15/04/14 21:28] Ary Endleg:what if influence is continually unsuccessful? :P [15/04/14 21:28] Azkhael:Though a complex society, one with a moral framework of its own, for instance, also requires the perpetuation of habit. [15/04/14 21:28] Miq:i will have no society with you unless there is a gain [15/04/14 21:28] Gljivoje:but society where everyone work against everyone is also society 'cause they're all following the same pattern, ideology. they are not society as we know, but on higher scale it could be. [15/04/14 21:28] Ary Endleg:hmm [15/04/14 21:28] Miq:i have land, knowledge [15/04/14 21:28] Gljivoje:they have gain from one another, but in more primitive way [15/04/14 21:28] Miq:i need no other human [15/04/14 21:29] Miq:unless they will work for me [15/04/14 21:29] Miq:sure i wil lalso give something back [15/04/14 21:29] Miq:but need is the basic fundament [15/04/14 21:29] Ary Endleg:specially tailored leash? [15/04/14 21:30] Rikstar:That sounds still like a society Miq. [15/04/14 21:30] Azkhael:To put in perspective, Miq; though sapience is, we are led to believe, an human potential, it is one socially developed. [15/04/14 21:30] Miq:if you and your friends de [15/04/14 21:30] Miq:prr [15/04/14 21:31] Azkhael:As for your earlier statement, Ary, that an attempt at influencing someone did not fulfill its intended purpose does not mean it exerted no influence. [15/04/14 21:31] Miq:it's not just social [15/04/14 21:31] Ary Endleg:no I didn't mean that it didn't fulfill it's purpose [15/04/14 21:31] Miq:some of the sapience is from the need to oversmart animals [15/04/14 21:31] Ary Endleg:I meant exactly on influence [15/04/14 21:32] Miq:other part is from the need to oversmart other humans [15/04/14 21:32] Azkhael:The only way that could happen is if the target individual were completely incapable of sensing interaction in the first place. [15/04/14 21:32] Ary Endleg:what if it was received with complete indifference... continually (which is practically impossible but still let's theorize) [15/04/14 21:32] Miq:but i am indifferent [15/04/14 21:32] Ary Endleg:hmm you sure? [15/04/14 21:33] Rikstar:Well you talk the same language as us Miq. [15/04/14 21:33] Azkhael:That you are replying in the first place already indicates you are not truly indifferent in the sense intended by Ary. [15/04/14 21:33] Miq:because it gives me a gain [15/04/14 21:34] Miq:you well remember me, when i need a favor it will be easier do get [15/04/14 21:34] Azkhael:Alas, your own view of what is desirable is part of a value framework. [15/04/14 21:35] Azkhael:Barring, perhaps, those desires most instinctive. [15/04/14 21:35] Rikstar:Also isn't this so that any opinion can't be called objective? [15/04/14 21:35] Rikstar:Because we are always influenced. [15/04/14 21:35] Miq:well if in a month or so i need your help to get a woman [15/04/14 21:36] Azkhael:You, s an individual, are a byproduct of influence, that it cannot be avoided means our view of objectivity already accounts for such. [15/04/14 21:36] Azkhael:as an* [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:what objectivity? [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:there is just a need [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:i need meat [15/04/14 21:37] Miq:i care not what it will cost [15/04/14 21:38] Azkhael:Objectivity strikes closer to a form of expression than to a source of initiative; hence, there is no objective opinion, but there is objectively expressed opinion. [15/04/14 21:38] Miq:what opinion are you talking about? [15/04/14 21:39] Azkhael:Lest we trail too far from the intended topic, what is it you wish to denote, Miq? [15/04/14 21:39] Azkhael:That all our actions are based on egotistical impulses? [15/04/14 21:39] Miq:simply the fact that there are people who are not infuluenced by society [15/04/14 21:40] Azkhael:Do you consider yourself one such an individual? [15/04/14 21:40] Miq:but yes by simple egosim [15/04/14 21:40] Miq:or even fundametal undrestanding that it does not matter [15/04/14 21:41] Miq:me? somewhat [15/04/14 21:41] Azkhael:Oh, why are you bothering replying then? [15/04/14 21:41] Miq:i take part of sociaty [15/04/14 21:42] Azkhael:Replying is a direct form of acknowledging you were influenced by interaction. [15/04/14 21:42] Ary Endleg:exactly! [15/04/14 21:42] Miq:for two reasons 1) there is gains in it 2) i'm bored [15/04/14 21:43] Ary Endleg:resistence is futile, Miq, you will be assimilated :P [15/04/14 21:43] Miq:mostly 1 [15/04/14 21:43] Rikstar:Well I agree with Azkhael. [15/04/14 21:43] Miq:talking with you will give me a leverege in some areas [15/04/14 21:43] Azkhael:And while I will concur that all drives have an egotistical impulse behind them, those impulses can be socially conditioned. [15/04/14 21:43] Azkhael:That is habit. [15/04/14 21:44] Azkhael:Or, on a more individual basis, they are psychologically conditioned through your life. [15/04/14 21:45] Azkhael:Your view of gain is, itself a constructed abstraction. [15/04/14 21:46] Azkhael:Hobbesian contractualism might interest you, in hindsight. [15/04/14 21:46] Occamrazor:excuse me >.> it seems we have drifted away from the exact topic [15/04/14 21:46] Azkhael:Indeed, let us go back on track, excuse me. [15/04/14 21:46] Rikstar:Shh it's still iteresting to me. hehe [15/04/14 21:47] Azkhael:Miq, I will gladly continue the conversation once we are done. [15/04/14 21:47] Occamrazor:thanks [15/04/14 21:48] Azkhael:Certain values we associate most strongly with an universal right are, in fact, devoid of such certainty; in our case, most often, western values. [15/04/14 21:49] Azkhael:A good example would be tolerance. [15/04/14 21:50] Azkhael:For the better part of history, one such a value was largely neglected; in fact, one could we are inherently much more prone to reject the strange to us than embrace it. [15/04/14 21:51] Azkhael: (one could say*) [15/04/14 21:52] Azkhael:However, for the most part, most of us cannot see tolerance as anything but a virtue? Why? Because we owe equality to our fellow human beings. Why is that? Because we were taught that from birth. [15/04/14 21:53] Azkhael:That is not to say every single individual in a society will share its primary framework of values, but rather, that there is a powerful tendency for such. [15/04/14 21:54] Rikstar:Do you think that it is good or bad that a lot of those "ideas" get thought to us? [15/04/14 21:55] Azkhael:I'd say the event itself is devoid of value, being a generic statement. [15/04/14 21:55] Gljivoje:i think only "don't kill fellow human" is aspect of tolerance that is mostly regarded. untolerance is on many different steps and aspects [15/04/14 21:55] Azkhael:However, if we were to talk specifically of a given set of western values most of us are subjected to... [15/04/14 21:56] Azkhael:Even from my own western-conceived viewpoint, one must beware not to take them blindly. [15/04/14 21:56] Occamrazor:what do you mean by "get thought to us" [15/04/14 21:56] Rikstar:The critical thinking part. [15/04/14 21:57] Occamrazor:ok thanks [15/04/14 21:57] Azkhael:One cannot help but agree with most of them, for they were born under such, but not all elements of that inheritance are unconscious. [15/04/14 21:57] Azkhael:In fact, a few social values are intentionally conceived towards a given purpose. [15/04/14 21:57] Rikstar: (Woops I mean the teached, I think.) [15/04/14 21:57] Rikstar: (Well my english isn't my main language.) [15/04/14 21:58] Azkhael:Symbolic domination, for one. [15/04/14 21:58] Rikstar: (It was: taught.) [15/04/14 21:59] :Occamrazor pets Rik [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:Consciously created, unconsciously inherited norms of social behavior by which we recognize another as an inherent superior. [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:It can be as simple as etiquette. [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:Or as complex as an entire lifestyle. [15/04/14 21:59] Azkhael:A great example is language. [15/04/14 22:01] Azkhael:Language is used for communication, but in doing so, it is also a form of exclusion. [15/04/14 22:01] Rikstar:That exclusion part can be seen as a small problem in the Netherlands. [15/04/14 22:02] Rikstar:*with language. [15/04/14 22:02] Ary Endleg:hahahaa [15/04/14 22:02] Gljivoje:words are like things, i'd say, certain bound feelings and previous past experiences are bounded to certain words by individual, so it's always misleading in a way [15/04/14 22:02] Azkhael:Hence the degree of ritualization that can be found in most of them. [15/04/14 22:03] Azkhael:One inherits more than land or capital, but also values specific to a given social group within larger society. [15/04/14 22:03] Azkhael:Those can be a form of maintaining privilege on their own; "symbolic capital". [15/04/14 22:04] Azkhael:While an online community will never reach an individual as deeply as that society they live directly in, its values do grow more complex the older it is. [15/04/14 22:06] Gljivoje:but also could remove many borders that are formed in "living" communication. like better imagination and less judgment, etc. [15/04/14 22:06] Azkhael:Interactions rituals, means of social distinction within said online community, or even knowledge pertaining distinctly to that setting. [15/04/14 22:06] Azkhael: (Interaction rituals*) [15/04/14 22:07] Azkhael:In a sense, that very framework, joint by a perception of distance from that original society, can dillute that framework. [15/04/14 22:07] Azkhael:But it can do no never do away with them. [15/04/14 22:07] Azkhael: (it can never do away*) [15/04/14 22:08] Azkhael:For one, though we clearly have means of distinction internally recognized within MD, we still indirectly defer to means of distinction external to it. [15/04/14 22:09] Azkhael:What is more, we are much more strongly driven by our inherent (social) beliefs of right and wrong than we are by the realm's own rules, even as we force ourselves to accept them. [15/04/14 22:09] Azkhael:That is because, being a second social system, we outright look at it as such; whereas that first system is inherently grafted into behavior. [15/04/14 22:09] Rikstar:Like being corrupt? [15/04/14 22:10] Azkhael:Can you elaborate a bit, please? [15/04/14 22:10] Rikstar:In the real world we won't d certain things, because we will feel bad. [15/04/14 22:11] Rikstar:In MD we won't do them either, while there aren't any rules to not do them. [15/04/14 22:11] Azkhael:Yes, that is good example. [15/04/14 22:11] Azkhael: (a good*) [15/04/14 22:12] Azkhael:Though, on the contrary, interesting enough, a reverse process also exists. [15/04/14 22:12] :Rikstar nods [15/04/14 22:13] Ary Endleg:So if Zully made a rule that all NC citizens must kill somebody once a month we would start doing it irl? [15/04/14 22:13] Gljivoje:and people can more open expose themselves, see how their ideas are accepted, because they're "true" identity is safe behind the mask. And in that way it can help in their "real" world expression. [15/04/14 22:14] Azkhael:As I said, the influence is much weaker from this end, Ary. [15/04/14 22:14] Ary Endleg:but possible? [15/04/14 22:15] Azkhael:Unless your hesitation to murder someone is already shaken within that society, you will not comply. [15/04/14 22:15] Ary Endleg:especially if we have immoral or amoral person irl from criminal parts of society? :P [15/04/14 22:15] Gljivoje:md is a part of real life, real life is not par of md. but its not first time that "game" influences people in such way Ary mentioned [15/04/14 22:15] Azkhael:At most, were one to do so, that influence, here, would've served as a trigger. [15/04/14 22:16] Azkhael:The framework preventing you from murdering another was already unstable. [15/04/14 22:16] Ary Endleg:I see [15/04/14 22:17] Azkhael:Those means of interaction you've adopted in MD, will, of course, have their influence magnified within MD. [15/04/14 22:17] Azkhael:That is to say, when we are playing we all adopt a mask of sorts. [15/04/14 22:18] Rikstar:I see chatting in MD as different then chatting outside of MD. [15/04/14 22:18] Azkhael:Quite! [15/04/14 22:19] Rikstar:I still mean with text via internet. [15/04/14 22:19] Azkhael:Yes, I got it. [15/04/14 22:19] Gljivoje:atmosphere [15/04/14 22:19] Azkhael:Social context, reverential dread, peer pressure, perceived expectations. [15/04/14 22:20] Azkhael:In fact, that may even apply difference between chat and a PM, both within MD. [15/04/14 22:20] Azkhael:Unconsciously so. [15/04/14 22:21] Azkhael:Note, those influences, even from a same source, are rarely entirely consistent. [15/04/14 22:22] Azkhael:Hence it is unlikely any of us have a set of beliefs which sports absolutely no contradiction. We may feel strongly in favor of clashing opposites. [15/04/14 22:23] Ary Endleg: (how much longer? I'm getting time constrained) [15/04/14 22:23] Azkhael:I will open to miscellaneous questions now. [15/04/14 22:23] Ary Endleg: (aprox?) [15/04/14 22:24] Azkhael: (Missing the conclusion and quest announcement) [15/04/14 22:24] Azkhael: (Probably another twenty minutes) [15/04/14 22:24] Ary Endleg: (okay, will try to stay for conclusion, not interested in quest since no time generally :P) [15/04/14 22:24] Azkhael:Anyone? [15/04/14 22:25] Rikstar:Well, I'm interested in these kind of topics, but I'm an amateur on the subject. Could you recommend any books to read? [15/04/14 22:25] Gljivoje:i get a feeling theres much more to be said [15/04/14 22:26] Azkhael:Of course there is :P [15/04/14 22:27] Azkhael:Certainly, Rikstar. [15/04/14 22:27] Azkhael:I'd suggest Language and Symbolic Power for a starter. [15/04/14 22:27] Azkhael:Pierre Bourdieu. [15/04/14 22:28] Gljivoje:maybe opening one day for chat session how rl affects on our md experiences and how md experience effect on our rl life. correlations and observations *laughs* [15/04/14 22:28] Azkhael:This is mostly an introduction, admittedly. [15/04/14 22:29] Rikstar:I have the title saved in my notebook. [15/04/14 22:30] Azkhael:There are authors who have conducted in depth studies as to said analysis, specifically oriented towards online communities. [15/04/14 22:30] Azkhael:Most of them microsociological studies. [15/04/14 22:32] Azkhael:However, to draw a conclusion here, online communities find themselves in a precarious balance in regard to their autonomy. [15/04/14 22:33] Azkhael:We saw that societies, held as an abstraction of those individuals within, for the sake of ease of analysis, bring tendencies within their moral frameworks that largely determine (cont) [15/04/14 22:33] Azkhael:an individual's values. [15/04/14 22:33] Kyphis:. [15/04/14 22:34] Azkhael:Furthermore, we saw that most individuals suffer said and enact such influence unconsciously, though that framework can be intentionally manipulated by a select number towards a given end. [15/04/14 22:34] Azkhael:Likwise, we saw that online communities sport many such aspects, including internal mechanisms of social recognition and rituals of communication. [15/04/14 22:34] Lania:Rik, if you are also interested in studies on online behavior and identity creation you can read: Alone together by Sherry Turkle and The winter of our disconnect. (sorry for intervening) [15/04/14 22:34] Occamrazor:really like Gljivoje's idea of 1 day chat sessions great topic [15/04/14 22:35] Azkhael:Still, it was said that those values bear a much reduced influence on the individual itself, if compared to that originary society. [15/04/14 22:35] Rikstar: (I have it saved Lania. :) ) [15/04/14 22:35] Lania: (oh cool. :P ) [15/04/14 22:35] Occamrazor:you guys are really smart [15/04/14 22:36] Azkhael:However, when acting within said online society, we adopt those influences more strongly, even as those more inherent to us lower in intensity. An internal form of social coercion. [15/04/14 22:36] Occamrazor:and gals [15/04/14 22:36] Azkhael:Yet still, even through that mask our originary society exerts the more powerful filter. The earlier may serve as a trigger, but it is not the most determinant of our behaviour. [15/04/14 22:37] Azkhael:How that holds true for each of you, however, is for you to ponder over, and here, I will gladly support Gljivoje's proposal. [15/04/14 22:38] BFH the Green: (when is this scheduled to end? I need to be back by then to send people back :P) [15/04/14 22:38] Azkhael: (Just the quest announcement now :P) [15/04/14 22:39] BFH the Green: (ohh there's a quest?) [15/04/14 22:39] :Phantom Orchid [15/04/14 22:39] Gljivoje:i'm glad your found some interest in this mdoholic meetings *smiles* something to ponder about and eventualy realize [15/04/14 22:39] Azkhael:Those of you here now will be eligible to participate in the following spin off quest, as well as those no longer here who had PMed as to their absence. [15/04/14 22:39] Rikstar: ( *chuckles* ) [15/04/14 22:40] BFH the Green: (send me a pm when over, the beeps annoy the documentary I'm watching) [15/04/14 22:40] Occamrazor:beep [15/04/14 22:41] Azkhael:You are to write a summary of no more than 500 words approaching the lecture's key points, to be sent to divine-being@hotmail.com, devoid of any form of identification. Should your email (cont) [15/04/14 22:42] Azkhael:directly reveal your username, I ask that you create a decoy one for the purpose of this quest. [15/04/14 22:42] BFH the Green:against that [15/04/14 22:42] BFH the Green:use forum [15/04/14 22:42] BFH the Green:that's why we have one [15/04/14 22:43] BFH the Green:i'm not here [15/04/14 22:43] :Rikstar chuckles [15/04/14 22:43] Occamrazor:does everyone get a prize? [15/04/14 22:43] Occamrazor:everyone that writes one i mean [15/04/14 22:43] Rikstar: *pets Occamrazor* It's not about the prize. :) [15/04/14 22:43] Azkhael:Submissions will be ranked from 1 to 5 based on how thoroughly they've approached those topics, and how synthetically thus. [15/04/14 22:44] Occamrazor: *laughs* oops [15/04/14 22:44] Azkhael:All submissions will be awarded, though it goes without saying a better score bears a better reward. [15/04/14 22:44] Gljivoje:maybe thorugh mail and than Azkhael can put it on forum? [15/04/14 22:44] Azkhael:I will create a topic with the log and the quest proposal. [15/04/14 22:45] BFH the Green:FORUM PM! [15/04/14 22:45] :Occamrazor kicks Rikster [15/04/14 22:45] Azkhael: (Are anonymous forum PM's a possibility?) [15/04/14 22:45] :Rikstar hides under the staircase. [15/04/14 22:45] Azkhael: (If so, please feel free to opt for that instead; my username is Azthor) [15/04/14 22:45] Rikstar: (What do you mean with anonymous?) [15/04/14 22:46] BFH the Green:use another person to send them [15/04/14 22:46] Lania: (as in you can't identify who sent the msg? ) [15/04/14 22:46] Gljivoje:when's the due for this quest? [15/04/14 22:46] Gljivoje:i dont have problem with anonymity [15/04/14 22:46] BFH the Green:brb [15/04/14 22:46] Azkhael:Two weeks from now, exactly. [15/04/14 22:46] Rikstar: (Well we were to write our player names, so I think forum PM will work.) [15/04/14 22:46] Azkhael:For submission. [15/04/14 22:46] Gljivoje:oh, nice [15/04/14 22:47] Azkhael:I wrote the accounts of those present; due to the anonymity, I won't be able to check presence prior the fact, but will do so after the evaluation. [15/04/14 22:47] Azkhael:Those not qualified, though they will have their text rated, will be denied a reward. [15/04/14 22:47] BFH the Green:If you want anonimous submissions then neither emails and neither direct forum pms will work. [15/04/14 22:47] Occamrazor:thank you so much for your knowledge, patience & time [15/04/14 22:48] BFH the Green:but that doesn't make sense as you have to reward them [15/04/14 22:48] Gljivoje:yes [15/04/14 22:48] Rikstar:Ah you want anonymity so that your view on us won't make you grade us different right? [15/04/14 22:48] Azkhael:Indeed, I'd request the usernames after the evaluation. [15/04/14 22:48] Azkhael:And yes. [15/04/14 22:48] BFH the Green:so if you want to judge them based on content make them send their submission to a neutral player [15/04/14 22:49] Azkhael:Also doable. [15/04/14 22:49] BFH the Green:and the neutral player send you all submissions [15/04/14 22:49] Gljivoje:i love this way of thinking [15/04/14 22:49] BFH the Green:without names [15/04/14 22:49] Rikstar:I opt for BFH's idea. [15/04/14 22:50] Azkhael:It is certainly an option, though I need a volunteer who won't participate. [15/04/14 22:50] BFH the Green:send them to me [15/04/14 22:50] BFH the Green:give them a deadline [15/04/14 22:50] Azkhael:Allow me to get the forum post up first. [15/04/14 22:50] Gljivoje:there will write everything needed to know, anyway [15/04/14 22:51] :Azkhael used the Acousticremains stone to temporarily learn the Acousticremains spell [15/04/14 22:51] BFH the Green: (emails shouldn't be used for quests :) [15/04/14 22:52] Haedrin:Whats poppin my wizards! [15/04/14 22:52] Gljivoje:greets Haedrin, i see you aged in the labyrinth [15/04/14 22:53] Haedrin:Yeah man. I came through to Golemus. [15/04/14 22:53] Gljivoje: *claps* nice one [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:. [15/04/14 22:53] :Haedrin bows deeply [15/04/14 22:53] Rikstar:Sorry, possible spoilers. [15/04/14 22:54] Haedrin:And! I drew a map! :D [15/04/14 22:54] Gljivoje:thats alright [15/04/14 22:54] Rikstar:We don't want to ruin secrets about the maze. :) [15/04/14 22:54] Haedrin:Secrets? [15/04/14 22:54] Gljivoje:nice one, cant trust your brain anyway [15/04/14 22:54] Rikstar:It's what you call secrets ofcourse. [15/04/14 22:55] Haedrin:I have a cool brain [15/04/14 22:55] Rophs:Here's a hint for the labby, every scene is viewed from the same angle. [15/04/14 22:55] :Haedrin claps excitedly for Rophs [15/04/14 22:55] Haedrin:so you figured? [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:Dont worry I dont intend to give my map to anyone unworthy [15/04/14 22:56] TheRichMerchant:here is my hint: keep pressing buttons, eventually you will make it [15/04/14 22:56] BFH the Green:rophs you will host the other thing? [15/04/14 22:56] TheRichMerchant:as i did *whistle* [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:But I do like to join Golemus. [15/04/14 22:56] BFH the Green:where is it? [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:Where is what? [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:Who are you * blink blink * [15/04/14 22:56] Haedrin:! [15/04/14 22:56] :Gljivoje laughs [15/04/14 22:57] rigo3halo:wow how did i get from the entrance of lore root to in here? what is going on here? [15/04/14 22:57] BFH the Green:rophs!!! [15/04/14 22:57] Rikstar:BFH I think you have to explain something. xd [15/04/14 22:57] BFH the Green:ROPHS! [15/04/14 22:57] Rophs:What? [15/04/14 22:57] Rophs:What did I do? [15/04/14 22:57] Rikstar:BFH what about a portal to the GoE? [15/04/14 22:57] Azkhael: (As the Council had not commented, I had thought emails to be permitted; BFH, if I may ask, what is your forum account?) [15/04/14 22:57] Rikstar:So that stranded players can get back. [15/04/14 22:57] :Rophs looks around in panic [15/04/14 22:58] BFH the Green:you are the seed walk guy? [15/04/14 22:58] :Rophs nods [15/04/14 22:58] Azkhael: (I thought*) [15/04/14 22:58] BFH the Green: (BFH) [15/04/14 22:58] rigo3halo:hmm? [15/04/14 22:58] Rophs:I do Seedwalks nowadays. [15/04/14 22:58] Haedrin: * stares into the library * Hmm I wonder if theres anything good in there [15/04/14 22:58] Azkhael: (Noted, thank you) [15/04/14 22:58] rigo3halo:well hello everyone [15/04/14 22:59] Gljivoje:hello rigo3halo [15/04/14 22:59] Rikstar:Hello. [15/04/14 22:59] rigo3halo:i havent been here in over four years whats new what have i missed? [15/04/14 22:59] Rophs: *grins* Will I be given the Traveller's Sandals back so that I may more easily walk to the seeds? [15/04/14 22:59] BFH the Green:"Seedwalk at Awiiya at 23:30." will happen? [15/04/14 22:59] Rophs: *nods* It will. [15/04/14 23:00] BFH the Green:ask council not me? [15/04/14 23:00] BFH the Green:... [15/04/14 23:00] Gljivoje:how should one simply answer that, rigo [15/04/14 23:00] Rophs:... [15/04/14 23:00] rigo3halo:i got distracted with dna activation and tuning into the earth, and etc.. lol [15/04/14 23:00] Rikstar:MoC has the sandals Rophs. [15/04/14 23:00] Lania:No, Rophs. We won't get them back, sadly. [15/04/14 23:00] Rophs:Kyphis asked me if I would be able to do one during MDA's day [15/04/14 23:01] rigo3halo:well you could just start from the begging and i dont mean genisis [15/04/14 23:01] BFH the Green:So see you there [15/04/14 23:01] :Rophs nods [15/04/14 23:01] Gljivoje:i'd saythe past doesn't matter, look ahead rigo [15/04/14 23:01] :[Spell] Loquacious retrieval [15/04/14 23:01] rigo3halo:rght on [15/04/14 23:01] :Haedrin grabs hilt looks around menacingly [15/04/14 23:02] papaver:I am going to take a nice long walk back. [15/04/14 23:02] Haedrin:What you looking at son? [15/04/14 23:02] Rikstar: (Also Lania I like your Public log on my acc. :) ) [15/04/14 23:02] Haedrin:HAHA! [15/04/14 23:02] rigo3halo:well so far i dont really know anybody to well here or really know whats going on i just wonder about sight seeing and etc. [15/04/14 23:02] :Gljivoje laughs [15/04/14 23:02] Lania: (Yep, Rik. I just can't forget ((: ) [15/04/14 23:03] Haedrin:i feel you my brother from another mother [15/04/14 23:03] rigo3halo:i guess you could say ive been slumbering for four years... a good nap [15/04/14 23:03] Rikstar: (I am also not able to forget, but it will be hard to do another one like that. hehe) [15/04/14 23:03] rigo3halo:< (^~^) > [15/04/14 23:03] Gljivoje:i see some plant atributes on you, developed tilakoid membranes and such cool stuff [15/04/14 23:03] Lania: (ah. Doesn't matter. I just hope I'm in the right spot at the right time :D ) [15/04/14 23:04] rigo3halo:on me? [15/04/14 23:04] rigo3halo:ive grown mold you mean? [15/04/14 23:04] Rikstar: (I will make sure of that.) [15/04/14 23:04] Haedrin:I think I got mugged... [15/04/14 23:04] rigo3halo:ugh i got take a bath.. lol [15/04/14 23:04] Gljivoje:not mold man [15/04/14 23:04] :Azkhael failed to cast a spell [15/04/14 23:05] Lania: (looking forward to it XD) [15/04/14 23:05] :[Spell] Loquacious retrieval [15/04/14 23:05] rigo3halo:btw where am i.. i remeber standing in front of lore rrot and the wah la.. im here [15/04/14 23:05] rigo3halo:root* [15/04/14 23:06] Haedrin:i feel so volatile... Whats that all about... [15/04/14 23:06] Haedrin:pardon my french [15/04/14 23:06] papaver:Azkhael, thanks for the interesting lecture. I will go now. [15/04/14 23:07] Azkhael:Farewell! [15/04/14 23:07] Haedrin:Bwuahaha!!! [15/04/14 23:07] Haedrin:cya [15/04/14 23:07] Rikstar:Bye papaver. [15/04/14 23:07] rigo3halo:so im growing? "as if i was a real boy" [15/04/14 23:07] Azkhael: (I can't seem to get the log window up. Or I am terribly blind, can anyone give me a hand?) [15/04/14 23:07] Lania:Bye, Papaver :) [15/04/14 23:08] Rikstar: (Hmm do you have a pop ups disabled?) [15/04/14 23:08] papaver:' *leaves the building* [15/04/14 23:08] Azkhael: (Nay, I even tried a different browser) [15/04/14 23:08] Rikstar: (Hmm) [15/04/14 23:09] Azull: (popup blocker?) [15/04/14 23:09] Azull: (ah lag :P) [15/04/14 23:09] :Azull used the Acousticremains stone to temporarily learn the Acousticremains spell [15/04/14 23:09] Rikstar: (Or else is there an other player who can pull the log?) [15/04/14 23:10] Haedrin:Ahrem ladies... Ill take my leave... [15/04/14 23:10] Rikstar:Bye Haedrin. [15/04/14 23:10] :Haedrin giggles, spins around and runs out the door [15/04/14 23:10] Azull:winbd whispers [15/04/14 23:10] :[Spell] wind whispers [/spoiler] The following players are qualified for participation, based on registered attendance or PM amidst the lecture, as accorded at its beginning: Rikstar, Samon, Intrigue, Shemhazaj, MRAlyon, darkraptor, Grido, Miq, Mya Celestia, Valoryn, Eara Meraia, Azull, Fire Starter, Ars Alchemy, Gljivoje, Lania, Occamrazor, Phantom Orchid, TheRichMerchant, papaver, lashtal, Ary Endleg, Seigheart & Kyphis. Others may submit their applications for evaluation, should they wish so, but their submissions will not be eligible for a reward. Quest: write a summary of no more than 500 words approaching the lecture's key topics. Submissions will be rated from 1 to 5 based on their overall quality, with particular emphasis to thoroughness of content, synthesis ability and formal text structure. Nothing not explicit in the above log shall be taken for consideration in evaluating the breadth of content. Rewards will be tiered according to the score attained. The summaries are to be sent to BFH (by forum PM), who has offered to act as an intermediary for the submissions so that I may rate them without knowledge of their authorship. The deadline for submissions is Thursday, May 1st, overruling the original deadline of April 29th, due to my own delay in producing this post. Sir Blut 1 Quote
Azthor Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) The sole participant, Eara Meraia, had her entry rated 3/5, and was awarded an Anniversary Aramor, sponsored by the Council. My thanks to all those in attendance, and a special mention to Eara Meraia, for submitting an entry, and BFH, for his assistance in maintaining anonymity during the evaluation. Though I shall not name them, my thanks too to the sponsors and those involved in the Anniversary's organization, as well as Azull, for the lecture log. Edited June 19, 2014 by Azthor Rophs 1 Quote
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