Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Ok Alche I believe I understand what Mount Kelle’tha is and even how it was made, and what and where the Book of Principles is and how to reach it. I will try to explain my theory as clearly as possible but please bear with me. It is quite long and very complex. I will of course refer back to my research source materials to help explain it. I researched the principles themselves, the adventure log, and support forums as they relate firstly to Akasha’s quest and then secondly your quest. So we can all agree on what is there, here is the description of Mount Kelle’tha: There are 6 piramids formed in a circle, within each is a blank piece of paper (6), and an additional pyramid apart from the circle. Above them and within the circle sitting atop a large “pillar of flame” are 2 piramids; one up-side-down and the other atop totaling 9 piramids. There are of course 10 principles. The wizard tells Akasha: “…the Book of Principles (is) guarded by the fires of Mount Kelle'tha. The book is actually protected by the principles itself…” Log, Page 15. “…Akasha finally reaches the top of Mount Kelle'tha. Thinking at first that they are huge rocks, she discovers a circle formation of piramid shaped buildings,…” Log, Page 43. “She moves away as far as she can so that she can see what is causing that light above the huge floating piramid. Amazed by the view, Akasha realises that the light is caused but something that could be described as a "slow fire" , a fire that burns but its flames are moving really, really slow….” Log, Page 51. “…After inspecting all the pyramids she found out that each one contains an empty paper that looks like a page of some large notebook..or something similar. She now has 6 pages,…” Log, Page 68. I believe the 6 piramids built in a circle are physical representations of 7 of the principles. Firstly the circle itself represents the Principle of Cyclicity (the so-called missing Principle)…” Symbolic, all events occur (in) the shape of a circle, two opposites intertwining, just like a snake, biting its own tail…” Secondly, the 6 piramids are the representations of the opposing and complimenting principles of: Transposition/Time, Entropy/Syntropy, and Darkness/Light. The up-side-down pyramid is I believe the representation of the Element Principle and the pyramid on top is the Principle of Balance, which leaves us only the Principle of Imagination as the pyramid that is set apart from the circle. What we have here is the physical representation and manifestation of the Book of Principles as a place. I believe a spell of great power was cast to protect the Book of Principles (very possibly the source of all magic) and the 6 pages are actual pages of the Book itself. Now I will explain how I came to this conclusion. Firstly the Pages. There are 7 piramids on the ground and 10 principles but only 6 pages. If we take all 6 pages and put them together we have a front cover, using front and back, 10 pages on which to write, and a back cover. The log states that the pages were seemingly torn from a book, which I believe happened during the casting of this spell. We have the book but it is blank. The principles are no longer in written symbology but in physical simboligy. I’ll start with Transposition and Time which I believe are opposites, and therefore are in the Cyclical Circle of balanced apposing and complimenting principles. Transposition tells us “we must not take into account time and we must combine all the stages of that object’s existence into one continuous thought. For instance, an action can be condensed to a simple identity, understanding the beginning, the course and the end of that action as a whole..”, which is the exact opposite of the Time Principle. “A very important thing to understand is that a range of actions is temporally perceived as long as it cannot be perceived as a single thought, a single identity.” By apposing one another, Transposition and Time cancel out some of each others aspects, but not as they pertain to the group as a whole in which they compliment other principles. In like manner all the principles in the circle are balanced against its opposite, but also compliment, in some way either limiting or enhancing, all of the others principles including the circle itself as the Principle of Cyclicity, except Imagination, which I will get to. Transposition states; “Two identical or close identities will behave as if they belonged to the same source, no matter the physical distance that separates them. By reproducing the aforementioned identity in a place, that identity will be connected to all its similar identities… Remarkable phenomena occur when complex identities are reproduced and impregnated into less complex objects,…” like the very complex principles into pyramids. The fact that all the principles are in the “identity” or shape of a pyramid shows how Transposition is helping to maintain the balance of the spell and complimenting other principles like darkness. “Through its feature of canceling forms, darkness may be used for changing existing forms or for creating new ones…” When we add to it Time we can see how Time can limit and compliment other principles like darkness; “Darkness is a temporary state, extremely unstable, but which tends to become stable and amplify its features in combinations with other principles such as time…” There is also the “slow flame mentioned in the log suggesting that Time is also complimenting the Element of fire. Time being one of the most powerful principles affects almost all the other principles like Enthropy by limiting it, or like Light and Syntropy by enhancing there regeneration aspects and creation aspects. You can see that the other opposites of light and dark, and Entropy and Syntropy have similar relationships within the balance of the spell. I chose the up-side-down pyramid to be the form of the Element Principle because the shape of a pyramid is to focus energy from the base to its zenith. With the tip pointing down it would be in a position to focus the flame as an element component of the spell. The top I thought to be Balance which would pretty much bind the whole thing together combining all the other principles beneath it’s controlling power; “It ( the Principle of Balance) generally stands for all things opposite and applies both to individual situations and other inferior Principles. Each situation, object or action is formed by parts, that have opposites.” If further explanation of the opposing and complimenting of all the principles is desired , Ican supply them in time. That leaves us with only the Principle of Imagination as the pyramid that was built apart from the circle. The reason for this is because it was used to form the spell by combining all the opposites and compliments of the other principles into a single thought but then could not be further included without upsetting the balance “There is a very sensitive threshold between reality and imagination… For example, imagination has a very important role in the process of creation and in reaching the awareness of complex (concepts) by combining (more than one thought) into one coherent thought, but this is where it's role stops, the wielding and any other intervention over the identity created in imagination are made in reality, not in the imaginary, actually (realizing) those things… Only confidence and sincere belief can hold on to the right path, the one oscillating between fantasy and reality… The human body has an extraordinary ability to automatically apply what is imagined (into) the real world, such a fascinating ability that we can (think) of imagination as a temporary place only used to (assemble) thoughts, not a place in which to keep them captive… Imagining certain things must be made with care, (because) what many times seems as only the imagining of things, is actually (happening in the real world).” I believe this is why when our heros came to the bridge, carrying a map with a storm marked on it…the storm appeared. Akasha was able to use her understanding of the Principles to dissipate the storm. “i wonder if that could stop the bad weather...but that’s for more complex things... oh well since i have nothing better to do while i am waiting, lets imagine how this could be done... maybe add a bit of Fire to the Water and Wind outside, merge them into one, use the wind to spread the action and use Earth to attract the Water ..... OHH! look the sun is shining, and this delicate warm rain ...oh and the fog is clearing.. i guess i can stop thinking nonsense and move on now..." Log, Page 36. It is also why the Wizard gets upset at thinking that the book could actually exist, “"She will never find the Book of Principles ..nobody can..there is none ....and even if there was....arghhh!!i am thinking again fulish things!"”…because thinking (or believing) it actually exists…means it actually exists. King Manu said it in the support for Akasha forum; “she is climbing the stones to get near the fire because YOU suggested she might find something out if heating the papers ...how many times should i tell you ...you actually change the story! MANU” Thinking it or writing it makes it happen. Imagination is the Key. This place is hyper sensitive to what is said, believed and written. Alche, you did create the storm, with your map. Akasha it wasn’t nonsense, it was the Principle of Imagination working. Alche, if you want to get inside the Floating pyramid, then enter the Imagination Pyramid and believe you are in the Floating Pyramid and you will be. As for the Book, writing her own had a definite affect on Akasha, might be OK but that’s your call. I think that in the Top Floating Pyramid you will find a complete understanding (not nessessarily a copy) of the Book of Principles. And with the papers there you will be able to create a copy. Or not. : D BlackThorn
Ren Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 YOU'RE A GENIUS! This is JUST what alche needed to hear! And now I leave Glai goat to pick out the flaws.
Glaistig Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Hmm, yes, he spelled pyramid incorrectly, as well as necessarily, and occasionally forgot to separate his clauses with commas, yes, many flaws. His paragraph breaking was inconsistent, might I say, and he keeps capitalizing some words inappropriately. No, Ren. >_> I'm very impressed by the creativity in his thoughts, and I think his theory could well be correct, although I'm not saying I'm thoroughly convinced by it. In any case, I wouldn't be a good judge. Why you! Provoking me to reply.. I need to get back to homework. Ackshan Bemunah 1
Bootes Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 That Definitely seems to be a very well thought out Theory. I agree with pretty much everything you said... I Hope that works for Alche...
Ren Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Well, I like this theory for two big reasons. 1. I comprehend his logic and definitely agree that this is possible. 2. It's pretty simple. Alche doesn't have to worry about getting blown up if he just walks into a pyramid imagining it is a different one. (admittedly there will be much more to it. He'll probably need a great deal of imagination charge, for instance) Ackshan Bemunah 1
Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Well, I like this theory for two big reasons. 1. I comprehend his logic and definitely agree that this is possible. 2. It's pretty simple. Alche doesn't have to worry about getting blown up if he just walks into a pyramid imagining it is a different one. (admittedly there will be much more to it. He'll probably need a great deal of imagination charge, for instance) It might be more like what Akasha did to disipate the storm. a spoken spell in combination with deep meditation on what Alche is truly seeking. be carefull what you Imagine Alche, in the principle of Imagination it warns of falling into It's trap more than once. also "Only confidence and sincere belief can hold (you) on to the right path, the one oscillating between fantasy and reality." be carefull what you Imagine because you will get it. I believe it's trap is insanity. BlackThorn
Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Hmm, yes, he spelled pyramid incorrectly, as well as necessarily, and occasionally forgot to separate his clauses with commas, yes, many flaws. His paragraph breaking was inconsistent, might I say, and he keeps capitalizing some words inappropriately.No, Ren. >_> I'm very impressed by the creativity in his thoughts, and I think his theory could well be correct, although I'm not saying I'm thoroughly convinced by it. In any case, I wouldn't be a good judge. Why you! Provoking me to reply.. I need to get back to homework. Sorry, I stayed up all night working on it. mind is running low on batteries. next time i'll send it to you for editing. BlackThorn
Glaistig Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Sorry, I stayed up all night working on it. mind is running low on batteries. next time i'll send it to you for editing.BlackThorn No, don't x_x; I was just joking because Ren said I would point out a lot of errors. I make lotsa errors myself and it was easy enough to understand what you were saying.
godesstda Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 OMG.. Blackthorn I thought about this all night and I came up with the same thories you did the 2 opposing pyramid's symbolize the Element and Balance principle, and of course the fire burning round them is a clear indicator of the element principle to me, and they are balanced on one another.. , that one was a no brainer. Another thing I want to interject her is that I think we all want to make this harder than it has to be, if we just stick to the simple facts we can stay focused on the problems at hand. And to me the whole of Mt. Kelle'tha represents the Book Of Principles in exactly the way you have described it. All this conjecture of moving pyramids, bringing the floating pyramids down to get at the fire for reading so called invisible words on the pages, catapulting anyone of us up there, walking into the flames..ect.ect. is not needed to find the book, I think we do not need to find the book..it is not there as an object to find, hence the wizards reamarks about sending Akasha in the first place. But I do think the book is there and with the wonderful imagination (principle) of us all, from first incorporating the principles into the MagicDuel game, structuring an evolving game to use them in the creation of magic into the game, having 2 key players seeking the Book of Principles, all this and so many more thoughts turned into actions, all play together with the Principles all involved in it....to create this book from it. And really when you think about it the book is allready created the Principles are all ready there, but just have to be bound in a book and the desire for that has come to being.. . There is one more thing I want to interject into all of this, since the Transposition Principle was the one I am supposed to be exploring..and really it lead me to this train of thought also. Understanding the idenity of a individual of object, when I started to do that about Mt. Kelle'tha it brought it all together for me. This place is obviously a very holy place..hence all the altars, the magic of the floating pyramids, the slow burning eternal flame, the desire for magic and knowledge of that magic spurred in all of us, the almost irresistable urge to explore that and to acquire that magic and knowledge of it. All this plays perfectly well into the Transposition Principle..understanding the place to begin with, using how we understand it and giving those qualities of understanding to an object and to ourselves. As I understand the Principles as a whole and on there own more and more it is not the Principles by themselves that are magic it is how we use them together that creates the magic for us! And as magic is and of in itself a holy premise what a more perfect place for it to be born than Mt. Kelle'tha. Now I do have a theory on how the book will look, not that it really matters, and since I don't know how to draw on this thing..sad I know..lol... so will explain .. 2 triangles bound together on the bottom edge of the so called pyramids, so it opens up to form the diamond shape of the 2 floating pyramids on Mt. Kelle'tha. Reasoning for this is the amount of pages found 6 isn't it..5 for the principles front and back used, and the remaining 1 page torn from coner to corner to form the bindings of the book, I am not sure about this but didn't Akasha say that one of the pages was torn on the corner..sorry I need to check her story for me to be sure about this. Ok this is all just off the top of my head from me as I got up and checked the posts and Blackthorn's therories fit with mine I had more researching to do today on it and havn't done that yet, but I was pretty confirmed in my ideas about the whole thing. And thank you Blackthrone for putting it all so eloqunetly! I will post more later after I have done some checking on a few things.
Suuljin Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 listening carefully to this new information, suuljin started to meditate. indeed, blackthorn seems to be some steps ahead on the path to understanding... very close to it indeed. but then, it may be just as well some skillful use of the principle of imagination... or just another perspective on the same truth... everything said is sensible, but it relys on things what we think to know about the principles... recalling the descriptions of each, they seem more like an introduction to the possiblities within each principle, not like the deeper truth we seek, like the secret of a book of priciples... can we really rely on something we believe to know? what is the point of the book, if we CAN know its truth? how can something created by the most basic understanding of the principles enhance our understanding of them? trying not to relate on things he called knowledge, he started to think again. ... is it a definite answer we seek in the first place, or would it only scorn the nature of the question itself... a book of principles... <the> book of principles...? slowly, his mind leaves the pyramids, leaves the problem as such, thinking about the very nature of principles and what connects them. ... harmony.... as simple as that, is the true connection - light and dark, creation and destruction... two sides of one medal, as they say, both of equal value, yet different nature... so it seems. antonyms, yet not contradicting each other - in harmony... even if fighting each other. cyclicity, balance - aspects of harmony as an eternal principle. balance is the state in which the principles should be, as should the world. cyclicity is the alpha and omega, representing the eternal struggle between different principles. thinking this he stops, collecting his thoughts once more... is it really all about the struggle, or has the coming war blurred my sight. the synergy of principles is yet another dimension too less discovered. transposition for example: it projects the identity of one thing to another, but realising its true potential could mean to project not identity, the "is", but imagination, the limitless "could be". possibilities would be endless, yet the path to such understanding is long and branches many times... and this may be just one synergy between two of the ten principles! ...ten principles.... ten we have an understanding of, but is the whole creation governed by this ten? or is there even more? a eleventh, a twelth principle? absorbed by his thoughts, suuljin starts to smile. how little we know, yet how much we can accomplish... but the train of thoughts rushes on, back to what blackthorn said... transposition and time are opposite... are they? "For completely understanding an identity or a mark, we must not take into account time and we must combine all the stages of that object’s existence into one continuous thought." that is, what we accepted as our knowledge of this principle... but is this contradicting "time"? no, the opposite seems true! by combining transposition as your base of thoughts with imagination as a medium, we would expand the principle of time from one moment of the existance of an entity to all the stages of its existance as a continuous thought, by bringing time and cyclicity into harmony with each other. synergy... harmony.... he abandons this thouhts.. for now. these are things to meddle with, when a deeper understanding is reached, when the subject is iluminated by the true light a little more.... realising that he didn't come one step closer to an answer, but instead created more questions, suuljin smiles satisfied. not an answer, but a new perspective... and what are my questions other than a new point of view on the same subject... so many different perspectives, so many different thoughts combined to achieve a common goal - we are on the right path for sure... yet not knowing how long it will be. awakening, as from a long trance, he looks into the round, examining his wise and witfull companions with other eyes than before. and again, he smiles. -------------------------------------> this rather long posts purpose obviously is to broaden and deepen the "question", so other players can continue to come up with their own thoughts, not being shyed off by blackthorns really good suggestion... and to intoduce my char suuljin to the story^^ feel free to borrow/plunder/change/ignore any of this thoughts for story purposes
stormrunner Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 I hate to kill the mood but time and Transposition are non related, and Cyclicity has nothing to do with opposites balance controls that, the Imagination is right thou, p.s. the answer was already found good try thou p.p.s. sorry for my bad spelling and killing the mood
Suuljin Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 ... all i said in the former post was meant as a response to blackthorns great logical problem solving suggestion... as it took me half an eternity to polish my post, many others have replyed before me and seem to agree on his suggestion. nonetheless i want to encourage others to come up with different ideas and to rather keep the question alive by coming closer step by step, than by solving it rightout... blackthorns idea is a great "first step" (or solution...), but i think it could establish great myths about the adventure if it wasnt to end it now, but to greatly progress it. we are talking about the "great book of principles" after all
Suuljin Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 @ stormrunner: well, transposition and time ARE related... "For completely understanding an identity or a mark, we must not take into account time and we must combine all the stages of that object’s existence into one continuous thought. For instance, an action can be condensed to a simple identity, understanding the beginning, the course and the end of that action as a whole." this is a direct citation of the text about transposition. the things i highlighted are clearly referring to time (contradiction is a relation, too) and little "imagination" is needed to link them to cyclicity: "beginning, the course and the end of that action as a whole" = one interpretation of cyclicity Q.E.D. as stated above, this should not be another (or even opposing) suggestion to solve the quest, but to keep it alive^^ even if not agreeing, you see my point? [edit: corrected some bad spelling mistakes ]
godesstda Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 Suulijin, I tend to agree with you on the other hand also..Are we ready to solve this great Mystery of finding the Book Of Principles, and are these all the Priciples out there to discover! Is this the step we need to take to finally incorporate Magic into the game. It seems to be that Manu is waiting for something to do that. But in doing it are we limiting ourselves to the 10 basic principles for now, but then as more may come to being another quest or more legends, myths, whatever to incorporate them into the book? Maybe the book does not need to be a bound tangible object but Mount Kelee'tha the place for all this knowledge about them to be reposited for us to have acess to when we need to understand them more and more. So, on that line of thought maybe just a through understanding is a ever ongoing quest for all players to achieve ...depending on there abilities at the time to acess Mount Kelle'tha and take from it what they need about the knowledge of the different Principles. I guess the biggest question in my mind should the principles have an ending or be left open ending to evolve as the game does... B)
Suuljin Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 to your question: i would definitely say: let them evolve as the game does! taking into consideration that, thinking a bit about it, you could easily come up with a way for every principle to shaken the very fundaments of universe, there should be no maximum to reach, because the ultimate end of evolution in a principle would mean that you have discovered all their secrets and interconectivenesses with the world, thereby reached enlightenment and became a demi-god ^^ it so much more flavorful imho, to be on an endless jouney of understanding, knowing that each step you do will improve your understanding and your power, but that you will (eventualy) never reach the final omnipotence. a limit other than the ultimative power (which would obviously be gamebreaking), would mean an artificial barrier: "you reached the cap, there is no more understanding (i.e.: you are not smart enough) or evolution (i.e.: darwin pawned you!) to accomplish, chose a different principle now..." that would feel rather odd, wouldn't it^^ ? on a sidenote: i am the last one that wants to delay the implementation of magik^^ if you seek for a flavorful, story-related reason to implement it, this is a great one. in fact the whole idea is so great, i dont want it to end now, because its a realy nice combination of logic and wild philosophy, which i both love^^ so i would say, yes, alche discovers a way to release magik into the world, but that is not the end of his quest, but the beginning! knowing so very little about what he found, he might open pandoras box and unleash more and darker powers than he seeked for the story possibilities are nearly endless^^
Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 I hate to kill the mood but time and Transposition are non related, and Cyclicity has never to do with opposites balance controls that, the Imagination is right thou, p.s. the answer was already found good try thou p.p.s. sorry for my bad spelling and killing the mood I struggled a long time to place the 6 principles represented with the six pyramids in the circle, and you may be right about time and transposition not being opposites: I disagree. light and darkness, and entropy and syntropy are rather obvious. but you must carefully read the transposition and time principles to see how they are quite opposite in relation to each other. not to say that they can't also compliment one anouther, as I also believe they can. also the Cyclicity Principle is represented not by a pyramid but by the shape of a circle that the 6 opposing princples are in, and the cycle is never ending but rather continously revolving "like a snake eating it's own tail". the top most pyramid, I believe is Balance, as you stated controlling all the principles except for Imagination, which was necessary only to create the spell. the post where Manu mentions one of the Akasha supporters "found the answer" was I believe in regaurds to "what will happen next" and was probably related to OmegaWeapon's rather briliant idea for Akasha to write the book herself, which of course she did. The question as see it is to understand the Book of Principles as it exist no matter the form: not to create an additional,personal, Book of Principles as Akasha did. we can't be sure what effect that will have, including falling into the Imagination trap. It seemed to me that when Akasha interjected with Alche, she was slightly Irrational and seemed more than a little off. I may be wrong about that, and Akasha please forgive me if I am, but she did lie to Alche and took pleasure in thinking of his destruction in the fire and rather demented in her demeanor I might add. Log, Page 112. I believe Akasha needs our help. That HER book of principles has somehow unhiged her. Alche needs to seek understanding of the pure and uninterpreted Book of Principles or I fear he will fall into the trap of Imagination as well. BlackThorn
Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 ... all i said in the former post was meant as a response to blackthorns great logical problem solving suggestion...as it took me half an eternity to polish my post, many others have replyed before me and seem to agree on his suggestion. nonetheless i want to encourage others to come up with different ideas and to rather keep the question alive by coming closer step by step, than by solving it rightout... blackthorns idea is a great "first step" (or solution...), but i think it could establish great myths about the adventure if it wasnt to end it now, but to greatly progress it. we are talking about the "great book of principles" after all I agree with Suuljin. I believe I have the Mount understood but which principle or priciples to use to gain access to understanding the Book of Priciples in it's purest form, I am not compleately sure of and I apprieciate very much his continued questioning of my theory. The quest is not over and it still remains to be seen if my theory helps at all. BlackThorn
stormrunner Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 no they don't the time supports and define Transposition as part of time\space(when and where) the case of a little madness is likely the darkness principle making her unable to move on p.s. try a simpler way (If something is in mid air just fly to it) p.p.s Cyclicity still has nothing to do with opposites.and sorry for bad spelling side note: this game like the simple answer
Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 to your question:i would definitely say: let them evolve as the game does! taking into consideration that, thinking a bit about it, you could easily come up with a way for every principle to shaken the very fundaments of universe, there should be no maximum to reach, because the ultimate end of evolution in a principle would mean that you have discovered all their secrets and interconectivenesses with the world, thereby reached enlightenment and became a demi-god ^^ it so much more flavorful imho, to be on an endless jouney of understanding, knowing that each step you do will improve your understanding and your power, but that you will (eventualy) never reach the final omnipotence. a limit other than the ultimative power (which would obviously be gamebreaking), would mean an artificial barrier: "you reached the cap, there is no more understanding (i.e.: you are not smart enough) or evolution (i.e.: darwin pawned you!) to accomplish, chose a different principle now..." that would feel rather odd, wouldn't it^^ ? on a sidenote: i am the last one that wants to delay the implementation of magik^^ if you seek for a flavorful, story-related reason to implement it, this is a great one. in fact the whole idea is so great, i dont want it to end now, because its a realy nice combination of logic and wild philosophy, which i both love^^ so i would say, yes, alche discovers a way to release magik into the world, but that is not the end of his quest, but the beginning! knowing so very little about what he found, he might open pandoras box and unleash more and darker powers than he seeked for the story possibilities are nearly endless^^ I am impressed by the priciples as they are to contain within themselves different aspects or lesser principles for lack of a better term. read any one of them carefully and with concentrated meditation and you will see what am speaking of. Then read another in like manner, with he idea of combining complimentary and opposing aspects of each toward a specific purpose, and think you will see that there really is no additional principles. BlackThorn
stormrunner Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 also do you know about nightcrawler(X-men) p.s. this has a reason
Suuljin Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 about your last post, blackthorn: when speaking of pandoras box, i dont neccessarily meant other, additional principles, but as you said, combinations of existing ones, that could prove to be a course for some, an instrument for others. its like discovering the theory that lead to the atomic bomb. all steps seperate where for a greater understanding of science and how the world functions, yet all together, in the hands of someone desperate or plain ruthless, unleashed a wrath that changed the world. about the evolution of principles: that mainly meant that their should be no cap to the understanding you can achieve in one principle (eternal journey), not that you should get infinite numbers of different principles. specialication is an importand thing here. i hope i got you right on your last post, and that i could clearify unclearness in my arguementation^^ about my suggestion of more principles... consider this: if you really wanted, you could have described every single aspect of principles like light and synthropy in, say: "life" or even "energy" (well, the later is a cheap one, as it could decribe nearly everything^^) everything you wouldn't have covered by that, would be covered in a combination with other principles. if there were originaly 8, instead of ten principles, i think many would have said, that there is no more room for other principles^^ (thats theory-crafting, though) i think the usefulness of an adittional principle would be to specialice, rather to actually add something new. [ for example: specialicing time and a new "movement" or "space" principle to create spacetime effects as a synergy of both of them. would maybe be possible with synergy of others or just "time", but again, its about specialicing: if it proofes some have far wider use than others, you can create a sub-principle or whole new one to balance it out (balancing will probably affect spells rather than principles though) ] mentioning the trap of imagination: it seems it is not <the> book of principles, but his personal interpretation alche seeks. not relying on what akasha thinks to know, he rather wants to discover the truth first hand -> a personal, subjective approach to understanding and handling the principles. so he is the first (or, counting akasha, the second) to discover a personal access to the forces that will change the means of war and peace forever, and others will have to follow his example to discover their personal truth about themself and the world (and herby the principles they choose) every personal truth is just a small aspect of the one real truth about principles, so the book will never be written, never be held by one person alone, but by all combined! (sidenote: that would leave room for alliance/clan great-ritual type of magik, where everyone combines their strenght to achieve a greater effect not possible for a single player^^) greatness, cant wait
Suuljin Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 side note: this game like the simple answer very true for game mechanics, as in nearly every good game. but the plot, the actual story should have many odds and ends you can relate to later on, using them as a way to introduce a new quest, to deepen the lore and background of the world, etc. i think the story can't be complex enough^^ (my personal preference for a good story) the trick is to have a clearly structered main-story, and some deeper-in sidestorys different players can bring forward if they want, without "forcing" others to follow it. so there is a simple access to the lore, but also many deeper, hidden truths. some will be satisfied with knowing how to use the new powers, that awoke in the world. yet some want to find out about their nature, lerning more, getting drawn-in deeper in a mystery that most dont even know of. thats one of the great things in here: you can make the story as complex as you (and the majority of the community^^) want, but all those who arent interested in that will occassionaly see the results of your deeds, but aside from that nothing will keep them from doing what they are here for. fun for everyone (now that sounded like some hippy stuff^^)
Blackthorn Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 mentioning the trap of imagination: it seems it is not <the> book of principles, but his personal interpretation alche seeks. not relying on what akasha thinks to know, he rather wants to discover the truth first hand -> a personal, subjective approach to understanding and handling the principles. so he is the first (or, counting akasha, the second) to discover a personal access to the forces that will change the means of war and peace forever, and others will have to follow his example to discover their personal truth about themself and the world (and herby the principles they choose) every personal truth is just a small aspect of the one real truth about principles, so the book will never be written, never be held by one person alone, but by all combined! Read Page 112 of the adventure log and you will see what I mean by trap. As for what Alche seeks that is for Alche to say. But I like where u r going with this. Can anyone really understand the principles, not as a tool or a means to an end, and not in a personal or subjective way, but in opening ones being to accept the objective forms of the principles? Very good question Suuljin. Can "the" Book of Principles be found. Deep. Very Deep. BlackThorn
stormrunner Posted July 23, 2008 Report Posted July 23, 2008 if a story get too complex It lose it's meaning and becomes a chore to read it the meaning not how complex it is defines the plot.
Repo Posted July 24, 2008 Report Posted July 24, 2008 I believe that we are all headed off on the wrong track with this, Mount Kelle'tha is a construct of Golemus Golarium - a land where magic and science are combined. What we do know is that the wizard stated was that the Book of the Principals could be found there. I do not believe the wizard was telling the truth. His motive is described as being to defeat the shades - whatever the cost. Indeed, he gives his own life to forward his cause and summon Wodin Ullr (page 91 Golemus Wizard quest). The Book of Principals is hiding in plain sight - You see it ever time you log in as it is on the introduction page. That the inhabitants of Golemus Golarium would construct pyramids and suspend them in fire to protect a book is plainly ludicrous. The construction of the various elements on top of the mountain is suggestive of a parabolic dish with the focal point being the twin floating pyramids. The slow burning fire is a symbol that the system is active. No, Mount Kelle'tha is a Golem. ( a simple cut and paste from Wikipedia) "The most famous golem narrative involves Rabbi Judah Loew the Maharal of Prague, a 16th century rabbi. He is reported to have created a golem to defend the Prague ghetto of Josefov from Anti-Semitic attacks. The story of the Golem first appeared in print in 1847 in a collection of Jewish tales entitled Galerie der Sippurim, published by Wolf Pascheles of Prague. About sixty years later, a fictional account was published by Yudl Rosenberg (1909). According to the legend, the Emperor made an edict proclaiming that the Jews in Prague were to be either expelled or killed (depending on the version of the story). A golem could be made of clay from the banks of the Vltava river in Prague. Following the prescribed rituals, the Rabbi built the Golem and made him come to life by reciting special incantations in Hebrew. The Rabbi's intention was to have the Golem protect the Jewish community from harm. As Rabbi Loew's Golem grew bigger, he also became more violent and started killing the Gentiles (non-Jews) and spreading fear. Some versions also add that the Golem turns on his creator and attacks either his creator alone or the creator and the Jews as well." Now if we paraphrase this to a modern understanding - it is a super weapon to defend the downtrodden. Now - the method of utilising golems is also expained by your trusty Wiki "In many tales the Golem is inscribed with magic or religious words that keep it animated. Writing one of the names of God on its forehead, a slip of paper in its mouth, or enscribed on its body, or writing the word Emet (אמת,"truth" in the Hebrew language) on its forehead are examples of such words. By erasing the first letter aleph in Emet to form Met (מת, "dead" in Hebrew) the golem could be deactivated. Another way is by writing a specific incantation in the owner's blood on calfskin parchment, and placing it in the mouth. Removing the parchment will deactivate the golem. It is likely that this is the same incantation that the Rabbi recites in the classic narrative. Golems also need to rest on the Sabbath lest they go berserk." Now we have the method for activating the weapon - inscribe (something) on the pieces of paper and put it in the mouths (altars) of the pyramids. However - what the result of such an action will be - who can be sure?
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