Suuljin

while a minor thing itself, it could cause some story related oddities, so... when i activated both tainted warrior/wodins guard i got access to chase_wodin as a necrovion soldier. scenario: gather a bunch of fellow assassins, just for style change the casting words of chase_wodin into [Kill the Brightling!], mass attack wodin with an attack bonus of up to 950, activate jump to leader position to flee immediately @MRn: changing to wodins the cruel is likely caused by activating both warrior description and wodins guard, merging the titles.

Suuljin ID:57321

may the stars shine bright around you, bearwatcher.

to prevent further confusion about attacking idle players: as elias posted in the dojo multiple times today, attacking idle players is allowed only if the players have left a note in their papers/personal log stating that they may be attacked. if you want to farm loses/ assist others by allowing them to attack you, please write it in your log by clicking the "L" button in your papers.

some doors closed, others opened - thats the course of the world. as for alliances - they are not snakes, which you kill by cutting their head off. they are hydrae, a new head may grow... and others may enjoy the freedom of treating former alliance members as equals... whatever that may mean...

good, so there is an official list now... i have some names that weren't mentioned yet: [note: since it is older than this thread it might be inaccurate regarding the mp level. i also think that most of them have learned to accept the dojo rules now, but in case they dont - here it is] mp3: Vinzenzo mp4: AbysmalOdin jun10121 / Dark Knight Jun Nolte johnstar

[i]observing the speakers, he silently follows the discussion with a smile //phrog sure would enjoy this: rumors, a heated up dispute//[/i] i am not far from sharing your reaction, tarquinus... but let me remind you of the fate of cassandra, the seeress... so, prophet of fear, although your short-tempered nature and nebulous words tempt us to mistrust you... i will, for now, assume your intention for starting this was pure. realize, your anger is pointless. if there is a force to come it will meet us prepared. if there is more... like tarquinus said - speak and we may listen. yet, if this words of warning were all you know or want to share, your mission is accomplished. you may rest now.

first of all, i second penelopes point about meta-gaming and godmoding. in any form of rp meta-gaming (i.e. telling other players how they react, what happens to them or how they feel about something) is considered very bad etiquette. most roleplayers simply hate it. on a similar note, godmoding is known as mood-killer nr.1 (being able to conjure a flame to light a campfire is nice and flavorful if it fits your story, but evolving this skill to end the planet in an inferno of all-consuming flames because your char somewhere got taught a firespell would be.... ridiculous) it depends on the matter at hand of course, during murs or rens party for example, noone would care about where all the gallons of booze magically came from or how someone whos legs were cut off a second ago (and who got informed so by the one who severed them) pulls off this incredible moves on the dancefloor having that said, i dont think the idea of giving points for rp is a good one, for various reasons. first, you sometimes simply want to do something silly (having to type "ooc" in front of every post really takes the fun out of this ;P ) second and more important, it favors the exact kind of "aggressive advertising" that pen mentioned later in her post. some players like to do their rp in pm's with just the ones involvoled in it and use the chat mostly to answer questions (which wouldnt be noticed if someone were running around counting posts) and stormrunner (if i got him right) has a point when he says that having others decide when someone is ooc wont be working too well. everybody who tried the unthankful task of playing a spy/traitor will know that sometimes, doing something strange/unlikely "for no apparent reason" is the best way to play a role... which cant be noticed, since you dont write your hidden agenda or dirty past in your profile (masterspy ledah being the exception ;P) most important point (you might as well reduce the whole post to that) is simply: you dont need a reward of points for your roleplay, the reactions of other players to good rp will be reward enough

hey, wie geht's denn mit der übersetzung voran? ist geplant ALLES zu übersetzen (u.a. die verse der verschiedenen gebiete) oder nur storyline und menütexte? falls ihr noch hilfe gebrauchen könnt schreibt mich einfach an. frohes schaffen

if i am not mistaken, there is a little flame, breathed by two medusae, over the gate of ages where he collapsed... and the gates are the entrance to golemus. maybe the flame pillar really was his destination...? an option would be, to try and use the breathed flames to relight his fire... metaphoricly... just long enough for him to reach what he originally searched... the means to achieve this could indeed be to gather supporters, "join them and blaze brighter together".... like mishadowst said.

well... there is this flame-pillar on mount kelle'tha...

i see the problem md is faced with. in wodins case a detailed description of his ROLE/POSITION should be made to make sure the idea of the ROLE wodin ullr stays true. a possible way to explain the changes in his personality and acting could be: the great warrior passed away, his soul extinguished, the abandoned armor a mark in the land. people from near and far visit this "grave", where the desertet remains reminds of wodin ullr. the mourning of his friends, allys can hardly reflect the mourning of the land golemus itself, for it lost a loyal friend and protector... ancient spirits of golemus, powers of the days of old claim the abandoned warriors finery, breathing new life in this shell. not the same, but with the same purpose, he arises. the purpose of his creation. to protect golemus! .... when travelers arive at the place of wodins last rest, the armor cannot be found anymore. just a whistle in the wind, in tongues long forgotten: weil den helden vieler schlachten leichter schlummer überkommen, hat das land, ihn zu ersetzen, seine rüstung umgenommen. do not stand at his grave and cry he is not here - he can not die! not the best lines, but you get the idea. someone who wields the english language better, can surely make a very atmospheric description of the events. so i would say that roles can be past on, with a detailed role-profile, but not personalities... pretty much agreeing to what has been stated before

spoken well tarquinus. indeed it is vital to verify our information, if this is possible. it seems we were satisfied to fast with what we believed to know... the agendas, the reasons to fight we have to find in order to understand and take the right action... includes the understanding of the shades, to which degree we might be able to, or at least their motivation. studying the history of this realm is important, not just for the imidient future, but remember that we are strangers in this lands, the shades have lived through this history you, me and other sages study... what survived in scriptures may be one interpretation of history, and unless we can fully trust the origins of this scriptures - and the extent of their insight - we must remember this very fact. don't misunderstand me, i have deep trust in your judgement, but it is easy to lose sight of the dangers and uncertainties once one is close to uncover truth. and you seem close indeed, uncovering that there is more to the nature of the shades - or at least some of them - than we thought. i hope your work will clear our view of the things to come... and of course i will do some studies of my own, hoping that the combined efforts of the sages gathered here and throughout the realm will shed some light on things uncertain. one question i have, tarquinus. did you study in the md archieves, the halls in loreroot or even some hidden libraries in distant lands? unless you already have studied all the libraries of this realm it might proof useful to view the different sources we have access to, in case some informations vary about certain events. the reason for this question is simply to offer assistance, since time is a limited ressource.

Suuljin

to reply to phrog and the general discussion... hmmm... i guess the first thing we had to think about is what war and fighting actually means... i will share some thoughts and fragments as they come to my mind, not refined yet, open for discussion: is the fighting we do already war? i would not say so, the existance of the dojo, even if not known (or accepted) by all yet, proofes that it is at least not the same. some may argue what the purpose of the dojo is - preperation for war? hmmm... it is open for every "side" in this "conflict", so the answer cant be that simple.... some would refer to the battle we do as training, and truely what is the worst thing that happened from this sort of sparring, if consentual or not? one was exhausted and had to regain strenght, one was victorious for various reasons, but both had the chance to refine their skills and to learn. some cultures honor the art of war, not because they were eager to fight it, but to train their bodys and spirit... and to be ready if war really came now what is war in this realm, what would be its purpose? continuation of politics by other means... i think that is the state dst described, the state we are in. so, what is the agenda of the factions, what is their reason to fight? i would say for those who want to stop that war from happening, this is an important first point: if you could eliminate the reason to fight, they most likely wouldn't. this is even more true if what paradigma said is right. dont get me wrong though, this approach is possible for individuals, for whole factions it may be a different story.... because you would have to eliminate not the reason for one, but for all factions... still possible if the mirror is the right metaphor to descripe the shades. now, what would be the outcome if the war really happened... capitulation or the total annihilation of at least one side... if one side established their goals, fullfilled their reason.... who said that the other sides whould stop to fight? these are things you cannot know if you dont know the full reason for all of them - and who of us does? i am not trying to answer this questions, not now, but to make more people think about them. fighting may be neccessary at one point or another, to learn about yourself and the other, the enemy as some would say, and for many more reasons... there is truth in both bloodshed and kindness, yet what aspects of the truth we will learn in the near future is depending on the decisions that were and will be made and, for now, a last thing. i do believe that every realm and its denizens are vital for the balance of these lands and will not allow, as far as in my powers, the destruction of one. as long as necrovion is fighting a defensive war, it shall be protected against ANY aggressors, but if the tides turn and the shades, or necrovion - if that is really the same, become too strong and threaten to destroy any of the other realms, these'll have to be protected as well. unless other informations shed a new light on this matter, (and that may be what happens now, a struggle to get or put on some informations and to hide others) this are some of my thoughts about the war.

hearing the news of alches "death", suuljin wonders the story we heard told us what others have seen... we have no idea about alches reason for touching the flames. and as blackthorn said, so close to his goal, alche wouldn't have made a silly mistake that puts all his achievements at risk. i believe there has to be a reason for his actions and we have to find that reason. nodding to innundo, with an acknowledging smile //changed, hmmm.... isn't innundo a friend of kalazdad, who, too, changed... transformed... becoming a being between life and death? a good thought indeed.... and a witty reply as well// *chuckles* indeed... but: dead or changed? what is death other than a change of perspective, another point of view? do not the principles govern every aspect - of live, and death as well.... maybe alche realised that he has to free his mind of the body that held him, becoming one with the principles... or at least becoming one with the riddle, to help others solve it. do we even know if he failed, or if he has seen this step as a neccessary one? and consider this: the remains of alche, even though burned to ashes, are not lost but inside the pyramids. do not even our servants, the remains, have lost a body and found a new one? well, this are, of course, speculations.... we may prepare, collect theories about what happened... but i believe the only possibility to verify or falsify them, is to see for ourselfs. to see what is inside the pyramids and if alches deeds changed anything.... anything we are aware of.... saying this, he becomes silent once more... waiting for the conclusions and ideas of the fellow sages, ready to follow alches path to mount kelle'tha.

saying this, suuljin realises that he judged too soon *sigh* another perspective... another possibility to come one step closer to the truth...if we try to look at the matter with his eyes, not just our own... the things repo said cast a completely new light on the matter as well... but nonetheless... ren seems right... sometimes we need to start things with little but braveness and wit... and use what we find on our path as we go on... deeper...

very true for game mechanics, as in nearly every good game. but the plot, the actual story should have many odds and ends you can relate to later on, using them as a way to introduce a new quest, to deepen the lore and background of the world, etc. i think the story can't be complex enough^^ (my personal preference for a good story) the trick is to have a clearly structered main-story, and some deeper-in sidestorys different players can bring forward if they want, without "forcing" others to follow it. so there is a simple access to the lore, but also many deeper, hidden truths. some will be satisfied with knowing how to use the new powers, that awoke in the world. yet some want to find out about their nature, lerning more, getting drawn-in deeper in a mystery that most dont even know of. thats one of the great things in here: you can make the story as complex as you (and the majority of the community^^) want, but all those who arent interested in that will occassionaly see the results of your deeds, but aside from that nothing will keep them from doing what they are here for. fun for everyone (now that sounded like some hippy stuff^^)

about your last post, blackthorn: when speaking of pandoras box, i dont neccessarily meant other, additional principles, but as you said, combinations of existing ones, that could prove to be a course for some, an instrument for others. its like discovering the theory that lead to the atomic bomb. all steps seperate where for a greater understanding of science and how the world functions, yet all together, in the hands of someone desperate or plain ruthless, unleashed a wrath that changed the world. about the evolution of principles: that mainly meant that their should be no cap to the understanding you can achieve in one principle (eternal journey), not that you should get infinite numbers of different principles. specialication is an importand thing here. i hope i got you right on your last post, and that i could clearify unclearness in my arguementation^^ about my suggestion of more principles... consider this: if you really wanted, you could have described every single aspect of principles like light and synthropy in, say: "life" or even "energy" (well, the later is a cheap one, as it could decribe nearly everything^^) everything you wouldn't have covered by that, would be covered in a combination with other principles. if there were originaly 8, instead of ten principles, i think many would have said, that there is no more room for other principles^^ (thats theory-crafting, though) i think the usefulness of an adittional principle would be to specialice, rather to actually add something new. [ for example: specialicing time and a new "movement" or "space" principle to create spacetime effects as a synergy of both of them. would maybe be possible with synergy of others or just "time", but again, its about specialicing: if it proofes some have far wider use than others, you can create a sub-principle or whole new one to balance it out (balancing will probably affect spells rather than principles though) ] mentioning the trap of imagination: it seems it is not <the> book of principles, but his personal interpretation alche seeks. not relying on what akasha thinks to know, he rather wants to discover the truth first hand -> a personal, subjective approach to understanding and handling the principles. so he is the first (or, counting akasha, the second) to discover a personal access to the forces that will change the means of war and peace forever, and others will have to follow his example to discover their personal truth about themself and the world (and herby the principles they choose) every personal truth is just a small aspect of the one real truth about principles, so the book will never be written, never be held by one person alone, but by all combined! (sidenote: that would leave room for alliance/clan great-ritual type of magik, where everyone combines their strenght to achieve a greater effect not possible for a single player^^) greatness, cant wait

to your question: i would definitely say: let them evolve as the game does! taking into consideration that, thinking a bit about it, you could easily come up with a way for every principle to shaken the very fundaments of universe, there should be no maximum to reach, because the ultimate end of evolution in a principle would mean that you have discovered all their secrets and interconectivenesses with the world, thereby reached enlightenment and became a demi-god ^^ it so much more flavorful imho, to be on an endless jouney of understanding, knowing that each step you do will improve your understanding and your power, but that you will (eventualy) never reach the final omnipotence. a limit other than the ultimative power (which would obviously be gamebreaking), would mean an artificial barrier: "you reached the cap, there is no more understanding (i.e.: you are not smart enough) or evolution (i.e.: darwin pawned you!) to accomplish, chose a different principle now..." that would feel rather odd, wouldn't it^^ ? on a sidenote: i am the last one that wants to delay the implementation of magik^^ if you seek for a flavorful, story-related reason to implement it, this is a great one. in fact the whole idea is so great, i dont want it to end now, because its a realy nice combination of logic and wild philosophy, which i both love^^ so i would say, yes, alche discovers a way to release magik into the world, but that is not the end of his quest, but the beginning! knowing so very little about what he found, he might open pandoras box and unleash more and darker powers than he seeked for the story possibilities are nearly endless^^

@ stormrunner: well, transposition and time ARE related... "For completely understanding an identity or a mark, we must not take into account time and we must combine all the stages of that object’s existence into one continuous thought. For instance, an action can be condensed to a simple identity, understanding the beginning, the course and the end of that action as a whole." this is a direct citation of the text about transposition. the things i highlighted are clearly referring to time (contradiction is a relation, too) and little "imagination" is needed to link them to cyclicity: "beginning, the course and the end of that action as a whole" = one interpretation of cyclicity Q.E.D. as stated above, this should not be another (or even opposing) suggestion to solve the quest, but to keep it alive^^ even if not agreeing, you see my point? [edit: corrected some bad spelling mistakes ]

... all i said in the former post was meant as a response to blackthorns great logical problem solving suggestion... as it took me half an eternity to polish my post, many others have replyed before me and seem to agree on his suggestion. nonetheless i want to encourage others to come up with different ideas and to rather keep the question alive by coming closer step by step, than by solving it rightout... blackthorns idea is a great "first step" (or solution...), but i think it could establish great myths about the adventure if it wasnt to end it now, but to greatly progress it. we are talking about the "great book of principles" after all

listening carefully to this new information, suuljin started to meditate. indeed, blackthorn seems to be some steps ahead on the path to understanding... very close to it indeed. but then, it may be just as well some skillful use of the principle of imagination... or just another perspective on the same truth... everything said is sensible, but it relys on things what we think to know about the principles... recalling the descriptions of each, they seem more like an introduction to the possiblities within each principle, not like the deeper truth we seek, like the secret of a book of priciples... can we really rely on something we believe to know? what is the point of the book, if we CAN know its truth? how can something created by the most basic understanding of the principles enhance our understanding of them? trying not to relate on things he called knowledge, he started to think again. ... is it a definite answer we seek in the first place, or would it only scorn the nature of the question itself... a book of principles... <the> book of principles...? slowly, his mind leaves the pyramids, leaves the problem as such, thinking about the very nature of principles and what connects them. ... harmony.... as simple as that, is the true connection - light and dark, creation and destruction... two sides of one medal, as they say, both of equal value, yet different nature... so it seems. antonyms, yet not contradicting each other - in harmony... even if fighting each other. cyclicity, balance - aspects of harmony as an eternal principle. balance is the state in which the principles should be, as should the world. cyclicity is the alpha and omega, representing the eternal struggle between different principles. thinking this he stops, collecting his thoughts once more... is it really all about the struggle, or has the coming war blurred my sight. the synergy of principles is yet another dimension too less discovered. transposition for example: it projects the identity of one thing to another, but realising its true potential could mean to project not identity, the "is", but imagination, the limitless "could be". possibilities would be endless, yet the path to such understanding is long and branches many times... and this may be just one synergy between two of the ten principles! ...ten principles.... ten we have an understanding of, but is the whole creation governed by this ten? or is there even more? a eleventh, a twelth principle? absorbed by his thoughts, suuljin starts to smile. how little we know, yet how much we can accomplish... but the train of thoughts rushes on, back to what blackthorn said... transposition and time are opposite... are they? "For completely understanding an identity or a mark, we must not take into account time and we must combine all the stages of that object’s existence into one continuous thought." that is, what we accepted as our knowledge of this principle... but is this contradicting "time"? no, the opposite seems true! by combining transposition as your base of thoughts with imagination as a medium, we would expand the principle of time from one moment of the existance of an entity to all the stages of its existance as a continuous thought, by bringing time and cyclicity into harmony with each other. synergy... harmony.... he abandons this thouhts.. for now. these are things to meddle with, when a deeper understanding is reached, when the subject is iluminated by the true light a little more.... realising that he didn't come one step closer to an answer, but instead created more questions, suuljin smiles satisfied. not an answer, but a new perspective... and what are my questions other than a new point of view on the same subject... so many different perspectives, so many different thoughts combined to achieve a common goal - we are on the right path for sure... yet not knowing how long it will be. awakening, as from a long trance, he looks into the round, examining his wise and witfull companions with other eyes than before. and again, he smiles. -------------------------------------> this rather long posts purpose obviously is to broaden and deepen the "question", so other players can continue to come up with their own thoughts, not being shyed off by blackthorns really good suggestion... and to intoduce my char suuljin to the story^^ feel free to borrow/plunder/change/ignore any of this thoughts for story purposes

i havent read the whole threat about the pyramids (just the first and last post for now) stumbled upon it reading the adventurelog for the first time, so if any of my thoughts have been discussed and considered already - just interpret them as a credit to whomever came up with 'em first --------------------------------------> looking at the picture envy gave us, it seems as if there where not one but two pyramids floating in the pillar of flames, one pointing to the sky, one to the ground. the pilar itself is one part of the principle of elements (fire), i think, together with the mountain (earth), the very sky(air), and one left - water. is there a river floating around the mountain or a lake nearby? of course you could have to wait for/ initiate a thunderstorm for rain, which would make one interpretation of the principle of elements complete. the other is the wu xing, the five elements: wood, earth, water, fire, metal.... the reason i come up with all this is: seven pyramids on the ground, two pyramids floating in the pillar of flames and finally the pillar itself, representing the elements in my theory, would make for ten shrines to the ten priciples. we still have seven papers/ days/musical notes, but this may be another train-of-thoughts. also, the pyramids seem to be each different in high, meaning each one represents a specific musical note (i guess this was thought of already, for i have no idea why the notes are mentioned in the first post): do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti.... which could be associated to the seven days (do is the german abbreviation for thursday, mi for wednesday, sol the latin name for sun -> sunday, etc.) but this is just a random thought. mentioning sol, think of the relation of the days to the stars they were named after... i know there is someone who knows a lot about stars among us. (even if his wisdom may not be related to this quest, the quest could nevertheless be a gain for him ^^) also, these among us, who know most about specific principles, the specialists on this fields of understanding, may find out something others havent learned about... gathering the most wise ones of each principle together should help to learn more about their relation to this matter, as well as to understand their inner interconnectiveness. i am but a humble wanderer on this paths, keeping a balance in the knowledge of all my principles, as balance is one of my fields itself... but surely there are those who dedicated themself to the deeper understanding of one principle. find them, it shall help your quest... -------------------------------> this may be some wild thoughts, if you could tell me more about the importance of the notes and days to this quest, i could come up with something more specific - till then: may shadows hide you, may the true light guide you - suuljin