A weird comparison

[Watcher]

What I see here is a problem of what some might call 'an inequitable division of assets.'

First, we have to define some terms, and though it will be difficult to define them all, we only need a working definition of a few. The term "assets" would be a great place to start. An "asset" is something which is viewed as valuable by the person who has the item, talent, et cetera, as well as the person who wishes to obtain the item, make use of the talent, et cetera.
The term "profit" requires a definition, as well. In this case, "profit" is simply the remaining revenue of a transaction that is in excess of what was required to create the object or item, or other such costs incurred.

Looking at the whole of the slave auction, the original basis for this thread, there seems to be a discrepancy in what people see as the "assets." As defined above, an asset has to be viewed as valuable by all parties involved. However, the transactions, or the payments, if you prefer, were not paid for by one type of currency, but by two: silver coins and creatures.
This is the first breakdown for this system. As noted in other places, there are those who view the silver coin as completely worthless. To them, it has no value and is an extra something given to them when they make a purchase of an "item" they believe that has real value (ex. increases in attack, defense or other values.)
Creatures, on the other hand, are much more concrete in their value. Everyone has them. Given enough time and battles, these creatures can give an interesting return to those who invest in them. Creature One will increase a certain statistic by X amount and another by Y. Stronger, and by necessity, older, creatures can make winning battles easier. Simply having some creatures can be viewed as a status symbol, such as the drachorn, the tortured soul, or the angien. It is clear that creatures have value to everyone.

The second problem comes up in the vagaries of the 'help and interest' the slave auction was supposed to bring to the market in general. I will admit that I have not taken the time to look back through old posts about the slave auction, but I recall quite clearly that Kragel stated he would take a portion of the proceeds, while sharing the rest with Kriskah Arcanu. However, I do not recall Kragel ever stating what percentage would be shared with Kriskah Arcanu and how much he would keep for himself. He never stated what his profit margin would be.
Also, taking a closer look at the meaning of "profit," one has to wonder what kinds of costs Kragel accrued in his dealings with either the silver or the creatures. Kragel did not have to spend resources on the acquisition of any of the slaves: they all volunteered. He did not have to pay for the space where he held the auction. Considering that Kragel had to pay for nothing, one has to wonder who he paid for which services, as he claims. If this has been recounted elsewhere, then I apologize in advance for displaying my ignorance.

The greatest problem then occurs when the two terms, "asset" and "profit," are brought together. As stated before, some people view coins as worthless while there are those who do assign them some value. Because of this disparity, there is no way to determine the "true value" of a silver coin. It is complete arbitrary, and its value was assigned by Kragel when he listed the creature equivalents to the silver coin.
Currently, we have to take Kragel at his word that he gave half of the earnings to Kriskah Arcanu, paid out what he did, and only kept the remainder as profit for his "work." (I place work in quotation marks because it does not take much for one to auction off a slave other than time and attention.)

To those who believe coins to be worthless, Kragel now has more creatures, which he did arguably little to acquire, and which they would see as far more valuable than coins. This is the "inequitable division of assets" mentioned earlier.


In the end, though, this has occurred and cannot be changed, and this is not the point of this posting. The point is: what is to be done about future endeavors such as this? Will there be another slave auction when the market occurs again, if it even does? If so, how transparent will it be, if at all? Will a "true value" for the silver coin be established by this time? If not, will creatures be included as a trading currency?
If Kragel feels he does not have to make his dealings public knowledge, is there another 'slave trader' who will step forward who will make his or her records public? For those who do not accept silver coins as valuable, can they assist in the assignment of value to creatures?

I am sure there are more questions to ask, but this is enough to get a dialogue on the subject started and, if not here, on another thread.

[Kriskah Arcanu]

[quote name='Watcher' post='31729' date='May 20 2009, 05:41 PM']As noted in other places, there are those who view the silver coin as completely worthless. To them, it has no value and is an extra something given to them when they make a purchase of an "item" they believe that has real value (ex. increases in attack, defense or other values.)
Creatures, on the other hand, are much more concrete in their value. Everyone has them. Given enough time and battles, these creatures can give an interesting return to those who invest in them.

I am sure there are more questions to ask, but this is enough to get a dialogue on the subject started and, if not here, on another thread.[/quote]

I find on Watcher's words quite important material of discussion. We have been talking about this for a while and I believe we will continue.
After all the discussion I have reacently read, I find md coins currency more "symbolic" then real. And I value the simplicity of that in a transaccion. But I recognize people will expect the market to become more then just an rp simulation. Mur will have an important roll in this matter.
There are a few ideas on how to make silver coins gain value on diferent post, as I recall most of them agreed MDSilvers have to become more rare.

K

Edited May 21, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Shadowseeker]

Well, I voice myself for transparency. And although for some weird reason Kragel seems to take everything as a personal insult to him, especially if I continue to post here, I feel like this should be said:

I will open a Mercenary Market. I'm no RPC or so, but I'll do it. How does it work?

The profit will be split 50/50, That means the payment has to be either in two times the same creature or an even amount of coins.

I'd suggest coins myself, to promote the value of them.

50 percent go to Kriskah for market funds. I saw her working for it enough to trust her enough.
50 percent go to the mercenary sold.

I only take voluntary donations to me, and if I feel they are too much for the work I did, I'll donate them into the system. (Note: This does not account my personal trades!)

All funds will be open, and I will create a list where everything can be seen, perhaps even hire someone to do it. (Getting an accountant to work for me does sound nice, doesn't it =). )

If someone does not wish to be mentioned in the list they will not, however the funds gained through that will appear, with anonymous apearing either for the donator, the mercenary or even both.

Merchenaries can agree to the contract, can refuse to it as well however. What kind of work you want them to do has to be said in advance, but they most likely will list what they will do for you. Special requests of course cost more.

How does that sound?

EDIT: I just hope we don't have too many revengeful persons out there, because if someone managed to hire Marvolo, dst, or Cless....well, you can imagine the rest.

EDIT2: It's unclear yet if it will be one ask only or hiring for a few days. Perhaps both, the first will be cheaper though. I'll start this once 10 people have applied, new forum topic is going to come soon.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Shadowseeker

[phantasm]

*tosses his 2 cents into the pile*

Things concerning the Watchers remarks.

"(I place work in quotation marks because it does not take much for one to auction off a slave other than time and attention.)"

I'm sorry I may be confused, but isn't that what work is? All the editors in the world who sit and check other people work and get paid more than the people who do the work. The housing inspectors who come along spend "time and attention" to make sure other's work is done effectively? Besides the fact that this is a game, I find "time and attention" to be the true meaning of work in this game.

"This is the first breakdown for this system. As noted in other places, there are those who view the silver coin as completely worthless. To them, it has no value and is an extra something given to them when they make a purchase of an "item" they believe that has real value (ex. increases in attack, defense or other values.)
Creatures, on the other hand, are much more concrete in their value. Everyone has them. Given enough time and battles, these creatures can give an interesting return to those who invest in them. Creature One will increase a certain statistic by X amount and another by Y. Stronger, and by necessity, older, creatures can make winning battles easier. Simply having some creatures can be viewed as a status symbol, such as the drachorn, the tortured soul, or the angien. It is clear that creatures have value to everyone."

In this case the values were clearly defined by Kragel. When any auction is held it is up to the person in charge of the auction to decide what values are where. Just because someone thinks a dollar is not valuable, does that mean it is not? Of course not. It still hold its value of 1 dollar. If people did not think the values set were fair they had plenty of time before the auction to decide if they wanted to participate. Noone held a gun to anyones head and told them to sell their creatures for less than what htey thought it worth.

"In the end, though, this has occurred and cannot be changed, and this is not the point of this posting. The point is: what is to be done about future endeavors such as this? Will there be another slave auction when the market occurs again, if it even does? If so, how transparent will it be, if at all? Will a "true value" for the silver coin be established by this time? If not, will creatures be included as a trading currency?"

Again a TRUE VALUE was set by Kragel long before the auction started. Unless Mur himself were to say "look this is what the value of each creature is at such and such" then the value is only determined by that of the person in charge of the auction. Sitting down and doing calcultions and trying to find "fair" pricing for creatures sure seems like work to me.

Final Statements: This post is in no way sticking up for Kragel's reaction to the posts. Kragel has always been a good friend and a well played RPC. As in real life, when personal life stress sometimes interferes with work enviroment, it can also in MD. I personally know Kragel is dealing with alot of crap in RL too. This is in no way defending him or the flames he used against any player. What I DO want to stick up for Kragel for is the fact that he layed out the auction far before the auction started and everything was voluntary. Those who were slaves, I was one, and those who purchased anything chose to accept the terms in which Kragel had stated for the auction. I know this had nothing to do with the original post but it has everythign to do with the turn that the post took.

[Watcher]

[quote name='phantasm' post='31824' date='May 21 2009, 11:22 AM']I'm sorry I may be confused, but isn't that what work is? All the editors in the world who sit and check other people work and get paid more than the people who do the work. The housing inspectors who come along spend "time and attention" to make sure other's work is done effectively? Besides the fact that this is a game, I find "time and attention" to be the true meaning of work in this game.[/quote]
Yes, you are clearly confused.
Comparing the duties of an auctioneer to those of editors or inspectors is laughable and insulting to the latter. You are correct when you say that editors and inspectors are "paid more than the people who do the work." However, what you failed to consider was the educational background of these professions. Editors must have a firm and established understanding of the language they are editing, and that requires education, not just simple attention to detail. The same goes for inspectors of any kind. Again, they must be educated by the appropriate governmental authority before they can do their jobs. Without the appropriate education, these people cannot do their jobs regardless of their time and attention.

[quote name='phantasm' post='31824' date='May 21 2009, 11:22 AM']In this case the values were clearly defined by Kragel.[/quote]
Did I claim anything else at any point?
The point of that was to say that the values determined were [u]arbitrary[/u]. Kragel had no basis for establishing the prices he came up with. He decided that Creature A was worth X silver. Any other person could have said Creature A was worth Y silver, and they still can. Again, these values were subjective; their values were set by someone and not by market prices or anything existing already.
My argument is not whether it needed to be done or whether the prices were high or low.

[quote name='phantasm' post='31824' date='May 21 2009, 11:22 AM']When any auction is held it is up to the person in charge of the auction to decide what values are where. Just because someone thinks a dollar is not valuable, does that mean it is not? Of course not. It still hold its value of 1 dollar. If people did not think the values set were fair they had plenty of time before the auction to decide if they wanted to participate. Noone held a gun to anyones head and told them to sell their creatures for less than what htey thought it worth.[/quote]
No, it is not up to the person in charge of the auction to determine the value of the merchandise, it is actually those who wish to make purchases; they set the end value.
You fail in your attempt to use the dollar as an example of value. Whether [b]you[/b] believe the dollar has value has nothing to do with its [i]actual[/i] value. If anything, your example of the dollar runs counter to the point you were trying to make and only helps my argument.
The dollar is a recognized currency, and not only by one nation, but by the entire world. Unlike the silver coin in MagicDuel, there are enough people who view the dollar as valuable and who will accept it in exchange for goods and services. You, as a single person, can say that the dollar is worthless to you, which will only make you look mad and foolish while someone else robs you of all you have.
Until the silver coin is as recognized in value as the dollar, this example is false, at best.

[quote name='phantasm' post='31824' date='May 21 2009, 11:22 AM']Again a TRUE VALUE was set by Kragel long before the auction started. Unless Mur himself were to say "look this is what the value of each creature is at such and such" then the value is only determined by that of the person in charge of the auction. Sitting down and doing calcultions and trying to find "fair" pricing for creatures sure seems like work to me.[/quote]
You are wrong. There is still no "true value" for the silver coin. As stated [i]several times[/i], the prices Kragel set were arbitrary. They were based on nothing else other than what he thought the creatures were worth.


You should be less confused now.

[Kafuuka]

You could say the values were determined arbitrary. I would say they were a decent guess. At short notice it is near impossible to get at the 'real values', which are governed by supply and demand. If there is a large record of trades that have been made, one could calculate the average price and say that that value is not arbitrary, but there was no such record at the time.

When Phantasm said it is up to the one organizing the auction to determine the value, I think he meant that it is normal for a shopkeeper to determine prices and the customers can either agree to that price or not make any purchases. If nobody agrees, the shopkeeper will be forced to lower prices.
And if I remember correctly, paying in silver coins was highly encouraged, using creatures was only accepted because there were a lot of people that had too little coins.

Prices change according to supply and demand, currency changes too. I think Phantasm's dollar example holds. Just because one person would think a MDS is worth a drachorn, doesn't make that true. Just because one person thinks a dollar is worth a brand new car, doesn't make that true either. However, if everybody in MD would agree the MDS is worth a drachorn, it will become true. If everybody thinks a dollar is worth a brand new car, it will be true. The main difference is that the dollar has a long standing history and a larger population that think about what it is worth. And even then the currency is ever changing it's value.

The only way to increase faith in the MDS is to document the prices and history of the MDS. Which is something the newspaper could do: a couple of pages dedicated to the economy, including last month's average prices and some nice graphical representation of the evolution.

[phantasm]

[quote name='Watcher' post='31859' date='May 21 2009, 12:13 PM']Yes, you are clearly confused.
Comparing the duties of an auctioneer to those of editors or inspectors is laughable and insulting to the latter. You are correct when you say that editors and inspectors are "paid more than the people who do the work." However, what you failed to consider was the educational background of these professions. Editors must have a firm and established understanding of the language they are editing, and that requires education, not just simple attention to detail. The same goes for inspectors of any kind. Again, they must be educated by the appropriate governmental authority before they can do their jobs. Without the appropriate education, these people cannot do their jobs regardless of their time and attention.[/quote]

I'm sorry I guess I always assumed the RPCs where chosen by Mur himself *no dif than a president picking someone* and that he felt they were properly trained in information to do such as an RPCs job is defined. (definition to my knowledge is a Role Playing Character who has a role in the land as a whole)

[quote]Did I claim anything else at any point?
The point of that was to say that the values determined were [u]arbitrary[/u]. Kragel had no basis for establishing the prices he came up with. He decided that Creature A was worth X silver. Any other person could have said Creature A was worth Y silver, and they still can. Again, these values were subjective; their values were set by someone and not by market prices or anything existing already.
My argument is not whether it needed to be done or whether the prices were high or low.[/quote]

I will agree with that completly. Anyone who sets up any such event should have rule over the values in that event, unless Mur himself makes the values.

[quote]No, it is not up to the person in charge of the auction to determine the value of the merchandise, it is actually those who wish to make purchases; they set the end value.
You fail in your attempt to use the dollar as an example of value. Whether [b]you[/b] believe the dollar has value has nothing to do with its [i]actual[/i] value. If anything, your example of the dollar runs counter to the point you were trying to make and only helps my argument.
The dollar is a recognized currency, and not only by one nation, but by the entire world. Unlike the silver coin in MagicDuel, there are enough people who view the dollar as valuable and who will accept it in exchange for goods and services. You, as a single person, can say that the dollar is worthless to you, which will only make you look mad and foolish while someone else robs you of all you have.
Until the silver coin is as recognized in value as the dollar, this example is false, at best.[/quote]

Not sure what auctions you have been to. I grew up in the country raising cows, crops, and so forth. At ALL auctions I have ever been to the company holding the auction comprises an average list of what the sellers think is a fair price, make a base starting point, and declare such starting point before the auction starts. of course the purchasers who set the end value when BUYING them. Those purchasing slaves were SELLING their creatures at a set price to kragel to use just like silver to place thier bid.

Didn't I say in my post that it didn't matter what the value was thought of as to what it actually was? *checks* ok yah i did so of course i agree about that.

[quote]You are wrong. There is still no "true value" for the silver coin. As stated [i]several times[/i], the prices Kragel set were arbitrary. They were based on nothing else other than what he thought the creatures were worth.[/quote]

Um silver coin=1 us dollar. That is the true value of the silver. If you do not have any, noone gives you any, it costs 1 dollar per coin once you have unlocked far enough to gain such. The "true value" of the silver coin in game is a long debated thing that will never end. Some believe it worth more in the time it takes to get to the silver, some believe it to be worth nothing, some believe it to be worth 1 us dollar. When purchasing items, or gaining acess to a land the silver is only worth as much as the person taking it is willing to allow it to be worth. Kragel did the same thing. He figured how much he though the creatures were worth and set that price.


[quote]You should be less confused now.[/quote]

If anything I am more confused. Were you there at those festivities? I know I was. over 3 hours before the even started he had posted how much he was allowing per creature. During the slave portion, noone BOUGHT creatures. Therefore when they were willing to give thier creatures up to add for their purchase of a slave, they looked at Kragel's hate list, and added the "worth" of the creatures in silver to the silver they had in their inventory.

When Kragel sold the creatures, he started the sale of each creature AT THE PRICE HE PURCHASED THEM FOR, and then others purchased them. Ergo the people PURCHASING the creatures determined their value with however much they were willing to pay in order to obtain it.

I think many are confused on many parts of this topic. The whole thing started because shadow asked a question and kragel went over the line in his reply. If we are to be condemned to death for letting our feeling get carried away in a post then most everyone is as good as dead. I myself try to be as non judgemental and unbiased about posts. I also will be one of the first to say that i go overboard at times in replies to something i find offensive.

Kragel apologized to shadowseeker for his rude behaviour. Wether Shadow accepted it or wether Kragel meant it is left up to them. The way this topic has steered is that people think Kragel handled the whole thing innapropriatly. As far as I see it there are only two people who ran this whole thing. Krishkah and Kragel. Both of them are pleased with the results of the fair and, up untill now, probally had a fun time with it. It is those who feel they were "cheated" by Kragel's unfair pricing. Again, I say AGAIN, noone forced them to sell thier creatures to Kragel. Kragel thought it a fair pricing for them and the people who sold him their creatures did too. If they did not it is because they got rid of something they feel they shouldn't have, or they were not paying attention and got caught up in the moment. As OFTEN happens in auctions.

I do not raise this to try and pick a fight with anyone or flame anyone. As being a slave myself and an active part of the whole thing I wish to speak my point of view on the matter so that others may see different sides to the story. I though the whole thing went very well, hectic as it was, and most people there enjoyed themselves emmensly. Is everyone who holds events going to be criticized for determining what goes on at the events? All participants were extremly excited and joyous about this event in the beggining. Is this how we are going to react? If so I fear only others who will try this same sort of action will find the same result. Such as Shadowseeker's idea. I like it and am sure to participate in it. How many will think themselves cheated after that event?

*edit* by the time i wrote and posted kafuuka posted. Thank you kafuuka for helping to clear it up. I do not always word things the best way.

Edited May 21, 2009 by phantasm

[Kriskah Arcanu]

Please, there is a thread to discuss topics like currency issues and creatures/items auctions. (Market forum). I blame my self, I should have stopt posting.
Mur is taking care of the funds situation that created the conflict so I believe we can close this topic so the discussion may continue where it belongs.
Thank you.

[Kragel]

[quote name='King Manu' post='31559' date='May 19 2009, 04:11 PM'][b]As reaction to this topic i requested FULL and detailed report of all market activity so far and its tradable goods and their profit share.[/b]

[b]Kragel will contact Kriskah and get this report to me asap.[/b]

I also understood that Kragel doesn't feel right to make these things public so [b]i will act as buffer to judge the market situation and decide if its something wrong and fix it if needed.[/b] Personal anger and provocation from some people made Kragel react in a way that has nothing to do with a useful answer to this issue, and now he realises that.

I understand your fear of this to be a big scam, and i must say i didnt inspected the market situation to close so far and only supported it so it can start running, but [b]i assure you ...both market and the "clients" of it ... that the market will run and exist ONLY if it will be fair, stable, and provide services that will not leave the slightes impression of scam or fraud.[/b]

I am sorry for the reactions of some people in this topic and i didn't expect neither of you to speak like that. For a RPC thats inadmissible and he will have his moral and penalising in private and hopefuly this wont happen again, for those provoking him and offending, i can only say that regardless of reason such behaviour is not a normal way that you can get any reason from anybody and will only harm your reputation on the long run.[/quote]



please read what mur wrote here and respect him if you cant respect anyone else ... i am collecting info on all the market trades and getting it to mur not just the auction ... he will review it and you will all know ...

it will be in a new topic and this topic needs no more flaming...

as to a couple of quick points

silver does have value as does gold and creatures and items ...
i researched a trade value by interviewing a few people and took into effect what each of them said to come up with the creature trade values i gave .... again i will state i offered LOW AND UNFAIR trade values for most of the creatures to make people trade coin FIRST and i treated each silver to be worth 2 dollars because i find them more valuable than just the dollar you got them with ... some may not agree with this but more people see a value in silver than the few here arguing senselessly that they have no value

as far as work involved watcher ... when a job is done well you will never see all the preparations done behind the scenes to make it come off smoothly...

and SS your saying you are sorry ... is not shown by making your further comments ...

everyone else flaming thank you for your thoughts on this .... this is the first time a market or auction was ever done there is always mistakes the first time something is done .... and there are always people who play the vulture part to try to pick it all apart ... so the flaming is hurtful but im learning for the next time so you will have less to complain about ... so for this thank you again...


more importantly [b]thank you to everyone[/b] posting here and sending me messages [b]supporting what myself and kris have tried to do[/b] in bringing a new lvl of roleplay and economy to the game

i originally only wanted to be a private merchant helping the market but i see how some of you think because i am an RPC that i am a public figure ... maybe this is why some of you feel you have a right to know what i make ... when i finish my report to mur you will know how much i made here and you will know in future things the market does what we make ... Kris and I will have a more open policy with the market...


with this being said i ask that everyone stop posting here at least until mur has a chance to see the report and make his post

show him some respect please


Kragel...

[Shadowseeker]

[quote name='phantasm' post='31874' date='May 21 2009, 07:25 PM']Kragel apologized to shadowseeker for his rude behaviour. Wether Shadow accepted it or wether Kragel meant it is left up to them.[/quote]

Yes, it's out matter, and for now we both decided to ignore each other. Better that way, perhaps.

[quote name='Kragel' post='31892' date='May 21 2009, 09:17 PM']and SS your saying you are sorry ... is not shown by making your further comments ...[/quote]

I will not further comment on this, after this. Last post and done. I tried to talk to Kragel. I tried. He was basically saying: What language I used I apologize for, but I still mean all of it. That sounds like sorry for the comparison a small child saying Oh, I apologize for insulting you, but I still mean the insults.

Do you wish to say that merely by asking things you can explain the PL comment he wrote?:
.Kragel.
low life who tries to find faults in everything to cover his own

Basically this "low life" is what I object to, everything else his honest opinion, point taken. He thinks I have faults, good. I think I have them, and well, so be it. I don't deserve to be tagged that way for keeping things rationally and just trying to be informed.

Then the whole YM convos I won't publish, saying I'm cheating. He says I'm envious of him having drachorns, while I have creatures which are worth WAY more. An example is just the 2 rustgolds I acquired.

Sorry, cheating just for asking things? He was saying he LOST in the auction first, and when people wanted to know he told them that it was not their thing.

Now when I ask and think he made PROFIT (not to mention he gained creature slots, but seeing as it was for a good reason, who cares?), he gets angry and shouts like mad, insulting me in ways which have nothing to do with it? I was about to accept what was said and done, but seeing as he still was the same even after he apologized in the forum, only difference not using caps, I edited my post then.

He could've said Yes, I profited from the auction, and it was being written in the terms, which I would call vague, but okay, it was said he gets his share. Fine, then I would've let it rest.

He wrote about the auction, and I saw that, that is why I wanted to apologize. The very impression people had was that the biggest share goes to the market for funds. I read it, and wanted to apologize. Apologize that it came over as a personal insult, when I just wished to understand things, and seeing as the auction was public, I should have a right to look into it. Just asking a question whether he profits or not is not allowed?

He was basically accusing me of wanting to harass him and be abusive, and he threatened me for continuing posting here. He claimed if I continue to write here, that would be harassment.

That's basically saying I have no right to VOICE myself.

Oh yeah, and to reflect upon all this which I wanted to let it rest.

I'm sure everyone remembers the trivia? Some people even go as far as to nick me server or neo, for me answering so fast. I only played the first three rounds and won two. That was when the third round started.

(2009/04/16 20:53:19): are you really going to bitch when mur let someone else get credit for one how many do you think you have to win give other people a fucking chance
Shadowseeker (2009/04/16 20:53:24): lol
Shadowseeker (2009/04/16 20:53:28): cmon, it's a game
Shadowseeker (2009/04/16 20:53:31): and I'm gone after this
(2009/04/16 20:54:17): its not a game when there is one player and everyone else is screwed
(2009/04/16 20:54:26): a GAME meand FAIR PLAY of some kind
Shadowseeker (2009/04/16 20:54:34): it is fair
Shadowseeker (2009/04/16 20:54:35): lol
(2009/04/16 20:55:12): no its is not

That was him. SORRY for being GOOD at the trivia and even GOING after winning two rounds. I could've decided to stay, but I did not do that.