Gg Critter A.b.a.r. Now With Poll!

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Most places have critters you can get (yeah, Archives don't, but that's
kinda a strange place anyway) when you go there. GG is the only exception.
Is there a place where you can get critters? Kinda, there is a place where
critters can be recruited, but only JR can get in, so even if you are to
get one, (there's a freeze, so even that's impossible) it will not require
you to be there at any point in time. Seems to me there aught be some sort
of reward for getting there, other than a different altar. Mostly, I think
it needs more critters. So here we are.

A.B.A.R.:R. (Autonomous Bad Arse Robot: Rusty, yeah, I'm terrible with names)
Cost to purchase:
Ve: 1 (buhahaha What on earth was that for?)
Vp: 30k (I like extremes, and yes, I'm gonna comment nearly EVERY little
thing, cause that's what I do.)
Ap: 12
Ep: 33 (Ahh, I was initially gonna have it as 110 cost for Ap, but this is
even a little more tricksier. It'll make some people think, most will not
have issue with it)

Stats
Ve: 452 (Making anyone cringe?)
Attack: 39
Defense: 31.5
Initiative: -3
Abilities: Slugish Strike (New ability. Attacks once every two turns
starting in Round 1 (That's the second round btw) for 1.5xdamage. Uses
attack)
Targets: Random

Descrition: A.B.A.R.:R. is a newly found machine on the isle of GG, and
the sea air has not been good to it. The machine is a bit rusty and moves
slowly, but can use it's massive bulk to pack quite a wallop. Hopefully as
it gets moving it will be able to loosen the rust in some of it's parts
and regain full functionality.

*****Level II****

A.B.A.R.:S. (Autonomous Bad Arse Robot: Shaky, yeah, I'm terrible with names)
Requirements for reaching THIS level:
Age: 3
Exp: 3141
Wins: 27
Ve: 2
Vp: 31k
Ap: 14
Ep: 36

Stats
Ve: 523
Attack: 62
Defense: 49
Initiative: 0
Abilities: Shaky Slug Strike (New, obviously. 1.5xDamage every other round
starting round 0, but with a 20% chance to miss)
Targets: Random

Description: Those wins seem to have shaken the rust out, but it seems
some of the rust was holding it together. Now the machine looks like it's
going to rattle apart every time it has to move. It has gotten a little
faster though.


**** Level 3****
A.B.A.R.:I. (Autonomous Bad Arse Robot: Intelligent, yeah, still bad with
names, and as many have noticed from level II, lazy.)
Requirements for reaching THIS level:
Age: 6
Exp: 31415
Wins: 45
Ve: 3
Vp: 4 (Hu? Random is always good)
Ap: 170 (Hope you have some friends. Unless of course you're gonna just
skate by due to some darned alliance bonus. Curse you. *shakes fist and
hopes no one notices the jealousy*)
Ep: 0

Stats
Ve: 900
Attack: 0
Defense: 91
Initiative: 14
Abilities: Think (The critter does nothing the entire battle, but can be
placed in rituals)
Targets: All

Description: One of those fights must have knocked a circuit loose because
now all he'll talk about is math and science. In battle he just watches
what happens. He's become entirely useless, maybe if you knock it over the
head again it will stop thinking and just start hitting things again...


****Level 4****

A.B.A.R.:U. (Autonomous Bad Arse Robot: Upgraded)
Requirements for reaching THIS level:
Age: 23
Exp: 314159
Wins: 73
Ve: 7326
Vp: 1
Ap: 1
Ep:1

Stats
Ve: 2326
Attack: 20
Defense: 20
Initiative: 21
Abilities: Twin Strikes, Sluggish Smash (Sluggish Smash, same as strike
but 2xDamage. Twin Strikes, attacks twice in one round, the second coming
at the point where a tenth of it's initiative would place it in the round
order, each hit does 1/10th of it's attack stat in damage.)
Targets: All

Description: After a while the darn thing went CRAZY. It ran off without
so much as a bleep blopit garg (which you've taken to mean goodbye) and
didn't come back for hours. When it finally did return, you didn't even
recognize it. No more rust, no more peeling paint job. The thing looks
brand new and has been retrofitted with a new needle shooter. Sure, the
thing doesn't look like it'd do much damage, but it looks awesome sitting
on it's shoulder. Maybe this thing will be a little more useful now...



A.B.A.R.:S.
Requirements for reaching THIS level:
Age:
Exp
Wins
Ve:
Vp:
Ap:
Ep:

Stats
Ve:
Attack:
Defense:
Initiative:
Abilities:
Targets:

Description:


Don't mind this, this is just here for further updates in the future
should I decide that they are necessary.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[Nex]

i will re-state my question of the old thread, this time with some numbers:
[quote][u]Guybrush:[/u]
Twin Strikes, attacks twice in one round, the second coming at the point where a tenth of it's initiative would place it in the round order, [b]each hit does 1/10th of it's attack stat in damage[/b][/quote]

[quote][u]MRV:[/u]
how is inflicting 2/10th of your normal damage output, with delay, better than say inflicting 10/10th right away?[/quote]

i disregarded enemy defense back then, it would actually be less effective:
say it has 1000 attack including influence. the creature it attacks has 50 defense including influence.

normal attack:
1000 - 50 = 950 damage

twin strike:
since it does damage equal to 1/10th of its stat per hit, it would be
(100 - 50) + (100 - 50) = 100 damage with delay.

if you mean it inflicts damage regardless of enemy defense it still seems underpowered, but may have its niches.


if i still didn't get what you actually meant, please elaborate.
aside from this unclearity i think its a good concept

[Guybrush Threepwood]

So, is there any way with defense it could do more damage?

Attack=200
Twin strikes does (20-defense)*2. Regular would be 200-defense.
200-defense=40-2*defense

I'm really no good at telling what is and isn't a spoiler, but since it's in the archives we'll just go ahead and say twins strikes is equal to a regular strike in over all damage if. -160=3*defense
So, if the enemy's defense is less than -53.333 twin strikes is better. Lower the attack higher the defense can be and still make it even, higher the attack the lower the defense needs to be in order to break even. The higher your critters attack is though, the higher the weaken power is likely to be on any weakener. It's high initiative is actually a hindrance in this case.

[Burns]

[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' date='16 July 2009 - 06:23 AM' timestamp='1247718204' post='37188']
So, is there any way with defense it could do more damage?

Attack=200
Twin strikes does (20-defense)*2. Regular would be 200-defense.
200-defense=40-2*defense

I'm really no good at telling what is and isn't a spoiler, but since it's in the archives we'll just go ahead and say twins strikes is equal to a regular strike in over all damage if. [color="#FF0000"]-160=3*defense[/color] [color="#0000FF"]?!? i thought you were good at maths...[/color]
So, if the enemy's defense is less than -53.333 twin strikes is better. Lower the attack higher the defense can be and still make it even, higher the attack the lower the defense needs to be in order to break even. The higher your critters attack is though, the higher the weaken power is likely to be on any weakener. It's high initiative is actually a hindrance in this case.
[/quote]

unfortunately, that's bs, guy...
if you want to do some maths, please avoid such mistakes, and then argue with them...
(20 + atk)*2 - def = sluggish dmg, every second round
20 + atk - def = normal dmg
(20 + atk)/10 - def = one twin strike, if i understood that right

regardless of twin-strike, we can easily tell that sluggish gets more attractive the higher your atk-stat goes, as that one gets doubled up, and that the insane init makes sure that abar goes first in first round, therefore we can say that wheneever you can make sure it survives round 0, sluggish is the better option.

so, what we want to know is, when is a twin strike equal half of the normal damage?
(20 + atk - def)/2 = (200 + atk)/10 - def [*10]

100 + 5atk - 5def = 20 + atk - 10def [- atk, + 5def, -20]

80 + 4atk = - 5def

this could be achieved by either neg atk or neg def, let's consider neg atk as impossible, though it's not unrealistic on early stages, so all left is assuming atk a positive value...
we'll try and see what happens with 0 atk (uninfluenced) first

80 = -5def
def = -16

in an uninfluenced fight, twin strike is better from the moment -16 def onwards, which is quite normal for an uninfluenced fight...
[checking back shows: 20+0--16=36, (20+0)/10--16=18]

now we'll insert x for def:

80 + 4atk = - 5x [/-5]
-16 - 0.8atk = x

now, let's check a few examples:

example: i got 3000 atk, used in a 6 crit means 500 atk per critter
-16 - 0.8*500= -416

i'd have to weaken my opponent with one hit before twin is better

example: mp5-newbie has 180 atk -> 30
-16 - 0.8*30= -40
=> mp5-newbie needs about one weaken before twin strike pays

example: dst has 6000 atk (no idea if that's correct, it's just nice to devide) -> 1000
-16- 0.8*1000= -816

=> dst wouldn't even need a full weaken to do better damage than normally


conclusion: the higher your attack gets, the more attractive twin-strike is, compared to normal damage (which this creature lacks anyway)


and this is why i dislike the creature, both its options are ultra-strong for high-end players and next to useless for 95% of all players... not even considering what high-end tokens would do along with twin-strikes!

however, i like that it encourages a bit of strategy, because to make it work at its best, you want to make it survive til it can strike with sluggish

PS: yeah, i'm sorry that i always need a wagon-load of numbers to explain things...

EDIT: changed basic attack to 20, but that doesn't change anything on the fact that i'm right... i hardly ever am not when it comes to numb3rs
and my def*10 comes from the fact that i hate deviding in formulas and avoid it whenever possible, you can trace everything i did to the formulas in [], and we come to the same conclusion after all xD

Edited July 16, 2009 by Burns

[Nex]

true, i completely ignored weaken defense in my example it's only useless for round zero wins, since the ABARU normally attacks before your weakeners, but if you plan for a round 1 or 2 win when weaken def kicked in, it is indeed a pretty strong ability. what more can i say, i like it.
also, thanks for this elaborate demonstration of basic maths

[Guybrush Threepwood]

The final form has 20 attack Burns, when I said let's say it has 200 attack, that was including influence.

Damage for twin is (A/10-D). Why you are multiplying D by 10 I have absolutely no idea. Attack power of the critter is simply attack/10 which is 20+influence, but why not just call it attack. As usual, damage dealt is just attack-defense, not attack-defense*10. You made this all incredibly complicated. If you want to correct someone, just correct them, don't make up new formulas and do all the math all over again for a simple sign change, you've made everything look more complicated than it is. When adding defense to one side I subtracted instead. That's all you needed to say.

So fine, whatever, we'll figure out when a twin strike does half normal.

(A-D)/2=A/10-D--->A/5-2D=A-D---->-D=4/5A. So in the case where defense is -4/5 the attack of the critter (after influence) Twin strikes works better. (This is just a lot simpler)

So if the overall damage is 200, then -160, yes. (In a 0 influence fight that's less than two hits from a grassan on weaken, as you said. Now, I don't know a lot of newbies who don't use weaken. When I started out the opponents defense would have been -160 before the end of round 0. Lower fighter battles last a long time. Two strikes from a grassan are a lot more reasonable for those battles.) And all of this is going with the idea that he has 200 attack. He actually has 20. (Twin strikes doesn't need damage, and sluggish I was gonna have depend on your influence, I wouldn't want it to do much more than a grassan as far as damage if I were to change it.)

As for sluggish strikes, it'll go in Round 1 first sure, but it only does extra damage equal to the opponents defense (assuming the critters attack is higher than the defense), and this for a delayed attack. If the opponent's defense is negative you are losing damage here. So as you pointed out, sluggish is only really strong at high levels when your opponent has high defense. (Though weaken defense is similar in this regard).

So the conclusion here is this: Twin Strikes is great for newbs, two weakens before it's better and that makes it useless? Most people have multiple weakeners in the rit, it's easy to have the defense low enough in one round. For higher level players twin strikes seem ungodly by what your saying, but remember that DST is ungodly. DST against DST is what you aught compare, or you against you. You seem to be assuming that your opponent has 0 defense on each critter. Chances are that your opponent has at least 1/5th of your attack in defense, or they are going to be outrageously outmatched anyway. They are most likely to have less than that in defense at evenly matched lower levels.

Sluggish strikes is great when relatively evenly matched against high defense opponents who you aren't going to depend on weaken against.

@Nex. The second strike of twin strikes is delayed, it's at 1/10th the initiative in the line up, so for people with reasonable initiative (18 and up) the last strike will come in last even with weakeners that naturally have 0 initiative.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood