Question the obvious - water surface

[Nimrodel]

[font='comic sans ms', cursive]And all this Time I thought it was natural selection! ><[/font]

Darwinwaswrong.com

Err... How does natural selection happen?

Variation exists within all populations of
organisms. This occurs partly because
random mutations occur in the genome of an individual organism, and these
mutations can be passed to offspring.
Through out the individuals lives, their genomes interact with their
environments to cause variations in
traits. (The environment of a genome includes the molecular biology in the cell,
other cells, other individuals, populations,
species, as well as the abiotic environment.) Individuals with certain
variants of the trait may survive and
reproduce more than individuals with
other variants. Therefore the population
evolves

Natural selection by itself is non random. But the variations in a population from which selection takes place is through random mutations/random chromosomal mixing. Keyword: random. Edited May 22, 2013 by Nimrodel

[Menhir]

Interested in other ideas?

 

Take a look at his work - you will need time. Might be worth for you too ;).

 

http://www.divinecosmos.com/

[Phantom Orchid]

Err... How does natural selection happen?


Natural selection by itself is non random. But the variations in a population from which selection takes place is through random mutations/random chromosomal mixing. Keyword: random.

Thus far unpredictable, yes, but a measure of randomness or non-randomness depends upon the capacity of one's ability to measure (or not) such things.  I would argue that to call something random or not is subjective upon this capacity, belief system, etc. 

(I wholeheartedly agree with you about your statement, I in no way subscribe to religious dogma (surprised?!) or scientific determinism... what I am trying to do is push us to question the 'obvious')

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Evolution happens whenever energy goes into making attempts to solve a repeating problem and that energy is limited.  There are special properties when some of the solutions that are "close enough" also survive(e.g. mitochondrial DNA might find multiple, radically different solutions to the energy production problem in a shorter period of time) which can be restricted by reducing the deviation of a new generation from the previous or by periodically reducing "the margin of error".  When they don't (e.g. breathing) evolution is limited.

 

There are also special properties when similar solutions support each other ("a solution is more likely to survive if there are many similar solutions that produce reliable results" i.e. mating availability i.e. neuroplasticity) or when repeating solutions can be preserved (slime mold genetics).

 

There is no need for randomness in evolution.

 

Another interesting idea:  co-prime numbers have properties that prime numbers have, that non-coprime numbers don't.  Co-prime sine wave frequencies when added together result in the longest period for the resulting function vs. two similarly-valued non co-prime sine wave frequencies.

 

Co-prime can be abstracted to a more general "co-organization" where when the non-random factor placed into choosing a number or a ripple use information form the same source but in slightly different ways, then if you do have access to the source then it's a lot harder to model, but if you DON'T have access to the source then it's almost impossible, especially if you're observing them TOGETHER and not separately.

 

Knowledge-tainted application:  The moon affects every point in the sea in a slightly different way, and especially effects the crest of a wave in a different way than the inverse crest.  With that variation across the entire sea, ripples quickly multiply the number of "ways of reacting to the moon" to a point where it's impossible to predict the next wave to hit the shore based only on your field of vision.

[Nimrodel]

[font='comic sans ms', cursive]Thus far unpredictable, yes, but a measure of randomness or non-randomness depends upon the capacity of one's ability to measure (or not) such things. I would argue that to call something random or not is subjective upon this capacity, belief system, etc. [/font]
[font='comic sans ms', cursive](I wholeheartedly agree with you about your statement, I in no way subscribe to religious dogma (surprised?!) or scientific determinism... what I am trying to do is push us to question the 'obvious')[/font]

So you say that just because we cant measure it, you cant call it random? Then i'd say you have no right to use the names of colours, speak a language, count, and do many other such things. If your statement holds true for randomness, then every little thing in this world is subjective to perception. I refuse to believe in that. It greatly discredits mankind. No matter how much good or bad we've done, we've done great things.

@Acksan: Bah! You are asking too much from me. While I do have many arguments against your 'hypothesis' i lack the time/energy. Ima reply to that soon.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

There are two.  Which?

 

EDIT:  Arguably three.  The one I forgot was the one related to the thread.  Wow, self, wow.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Ackshan Bemunah

[ZenTao]

When I was a child I jumped into the water not knowing how to swim, and after almost drowning I still jumped in the water a few more times, then I suppose my parents figured they better teach me to swim. When looking at the surface of a natural source of water, like a huge lake or the ocean, I feel like the world there is a literal No mans land. It brings with it caution and warning with mystery and darkness. However, when peering into puddles after the storms pass, I feel a sense of renewing and of clarity, of light reflecting through prisms scattering the visible spectrum and categorizing intentions.

Edit: After reading a few others posts I will add that randomness does exist, that no matter how much our logic says that there must always be a reason things happen, the reality is that our universe has secrets we shall never know the why to, that it is not within our capacity as humans to understand, thus another great lesson is acceptance that we may never know it's secrets no matter how disappointing it is to accept, it could be that within accepting that we find a solution.

Edited July 25, 2013 by ZenTao

[Muratus del Mur]

or randomness IS part of the logic system of the universe, thats my conclusion so far at least...a conclusion i will keep open for change later, given a better reasoning

i must add that with such forum topics i entertain myself occasionaly, i pic some of your replies as much as i can read (i have a serious concentration problem reading long text), and i analyze those replues individually, not compared with the rest. Even if i read or reply a year later, such topics remain the things that keep my mind alive and keep me going, so i must thank you everyone for your replies.

[Granos]

or randomness IS part of the logic system of the universe, thats my conclusion so far at least...a conclusion i will keep open for change later, given a better reasoning

i must add that with such forum topics i entertain myself occasionaly, i pic some of your replies as much as i can read (i have a serious concentration problem reading long text), and i analyze those replues individually, not compared with the rest. Even if i read or reply a year later, such topics remain the things that keep my mind alive and keep me going, so i must thank you everyone for your replies.

This is simular to the way I've always viewed things... Randomness is the not the opposite to the order which things tend to lead to, but the process in which the variables are organized to achieve "order".

A very simple example of this:

Nothing - Random - Order - Origin - Nothing

[Assira the Black]

I believe everything is connected and can not truly be understood when separated from the whole. By trying to have it in a closed system you are only able to understand the core of it or a piece. Like having water in a distiller. You can see it as a fluid, boil, become a gas, and become a fluid again. You could even freeze it and see it become a solid. But by studying it in this closed system you only see certain aspects of it.

 

When left alone in the world it is much more diverse, there are clouds that contain other gases along with water, rivers, lakes, oceans, groundwater, natural springs, caves with stalagmites and stalactites, and among other things.  

 

These things are created by the connection of various factors. We can see how on a bigger scale that the water system affects individual aspects/systems (for example cave formation) but it is harder to connect it all and see how all things connect and influence each other.

Even peoples reactions and responses, though it can seem random, it is done for a reason. This reason they, themselves may not realize, but it happened all the same. I would not be able to guess what a person does and be right 100% of the time because I am looking through the lens that I see the world.

 

On a slightly different thought process in regards to water. Water has also played a role in religions. It has been seen as rebirth, to purify something, and in divination. Some people use water as a way to tell the future. The belief that it is connected to time or a way to clear the mind to see the future through our own minds.  And in some books water has been used as a medium to store memories or gain access to past memories. So water itself has been connected with time.

 

Building on the idea that water is used to store things or act as a container. Water also has a bunch of living organisms living in it. Microbes, minerals, organisms... all this together is what I believe makes water a living organism. We can separate the water from it for drinking and other uses. But we may be missing out on some of our evolutionary advances by doing that. True that most water sources are to contaminated to be beneficial because of chemicals, runoff, and harmful organisms that could make a person sick or result in death. But at some point in human evolution humans bodies have adapted to work with beneficial microbes. Like the bacteria that helps with food digestion, or the mitochondria. The mitochondria has its own DNA, some scientists believe that it originally was a bacteria that entered the cells and coexisted with that life forms. The same with plants, like the mitochondria,  the chloroplast in plants has its own set of DNA.

 

So now that I have jumped around a lot and more or less just spit out all my thoughts, I think I will stop with this. I do not think true randomness exists. Only that we do not understand it, like people have previously mentioned. Its all connected and affects each other. Just because we do not see the connection now does not mean it doesn't exist.