Auras/Bonuses (Creature Boost, Skill Drain, Vitality Drain, Freeze & Antifreeze) & Tokens: Availability, Order & Opportunity Value

[Azthor]

Disclaimer: I have not, in any way or fashion, checked the veracity of the data below, it being taken directly from http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15492-combat-talk/. Should you find any factual mistakes, inform me of such within this thread and this post will be edited accordingly. New suggestions, where pertinent to the topic, will likewise be added.

 

I - Antifreeze tokens (Antifreeze & Blooddrop2, with the appropriate Principle combination) are applied before Auras, hence being only useful in extremely circumstantial scenarios (Out-of-MP Creature & Prot-Freeze) for the attacker. They also contradict their shop description as a direct consequence and Blooddrop2 comes with an unstated 10% initiative bonus.

 

II - The set order for the Auras, where the attacker's are applied first, leaves the attacker completely vulnerable to the defender's Freeze, as their Antifreeze is applied before the defender's Freeze. Likewise, Skill Drain and Vitality Drain would favor the defender, if both sides employ them. However, should the defender lack Antifreeze, or luck favor the attacker, the attacker may have a small chance of disabling all of the defender's creatures with no resistance.

 

III - Freeze (http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15763-reducing-the-power-of-freezes/) pigeonholes rituals into having as many creatures as possible, so as to avoid its absolute effect. That has been both praised and criticized for the same reason: making one creature rituals undoable in any competitive environment.

 

IV - Antifreezes are more abundant than Freezes, point II duly observed, with as many as 15 of the earlier, and as many as 8 of the later, available in a ritual. Were point I not true, then there'd be as many as 21 Antifreezes, and 6 guaranteed Antifreezes, with the appropriate Principle combination.

 

V - Frozen creatures, if unfrozen after their aura should have applied, lose the opportunity to apply their aura altogether; the Freeze mechanic is, hence, a dual roulette for the attacker and the defender alike, making any remotely accurate prediction as to what will go into effect impossible. Such may add an undesirably strong aspect of luck to combat.

 

VI - The initiative order for auras, within a player's aura phase, is based on each creature's ID. While such could allow for some measure of advantage through foresight, by having those creatures with Antifreeze have an older ID than the rest, hence minimizing the amount of auras that are halted by Freeze, the desirability of  such is, again, debatable.

 

VII - Skill Drain is seemingly unable to truly match two players' stats; instead, its use is circumstantially connected to Freeze and the amount of VE in a fight. That is not in and of itself undesirable, as the player with higher personal stats or the better set of tokens must have an advantage, but if the Freeze mechanics are changed, Skill Drain's precarious position may be unhinged.

 

Index:

 

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15716-aurasbonuses-creature-boost-skill-drain-vitality-drain-freeze-antifreeze-tokens-availability-order-opportunity-value/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15721-target-all-creature-diversity-creature-upgrade-value/

Defend, Intoxicate, Martyrism & Protect: Availability, Opportunity Value & Targets

Heal & Regenerate: Opportunity Value, Targets & Upper Limit

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15734-rustgold-drachorns-reindrachs-wind-dragons-mutual-creature-boost/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15733-unit-limits-angiens-drachorns-archers/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15748-weaken-defense-lower-limit/

Honor & Negative Stats: Lower Limit

Honor & Balance: Intended Function & Current Application

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15763-reducing-the-power-of-freezes/

 

Discussion status: undefined.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Azthor

[Chewett]

As a seperate issue, can you send me the details of the incorrect token descriptions so I can change it please, thanks :)

[No one]

Congratulation Azthor for this separate thread.

 

Now, my 2c: shouldn't the freeze / antifreeze have a percent of success ? (I don't know if it is now like this or would be a new feature)

 

Because having, like stated above, 8 certain freeze auras seems like an overkill

[Rophs]

Having freeze/anti being RNG based seems like it would make each fight unfair on an individual level. Although over a large sample of fights it would be "balanced" in the sense that it would be equally likely to bias one fighter in either direction.

[Ary Endleg]

Congratulation Azthor for this separate thread.

 

Now, my 2c: shouldn't the freeze / antifreeze have a percent of success ? (I don't know if it is now like this or would be a new feature)

 

Because having, like stated above, 8 certain freeze auras seems like an overkill

 

antifreeze and freeze have chance to fail, exception to this is blooddrop2 token in which case if player fulfills requirements, it will be certain antifreeze for that creature it is applied on. Again exception to that is if you attack, hence freezes are applied after your blooddrop2. There are no certain freezes.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[SIGSEGV]

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Ary Endleg]

Yes that is possible, freeze can fall onto another already frozen creature. I don't remember what happens then, second freeze just lands there and creature stays normally frozen (single antifreeze will unfreeze it) or does that second freeze count as miss and then it tries to freeze another creature (same behavior as with hitting empty slot). Ask Darky :D

[DARK DEMON]

II. The set order for the Auras, where the attacker's are applied first, leaves the attacker completely vulnerable to the defender's Freeze, with no detriment to the later, as their Antifreeze is applied before the defender's Freeze. Likewise, Skill Drain and Vitality Drain would favor the defender, if both sides employ them.

 

This is not entirely true, as I have seen in my recent fights. In many cases, not just once, if defender had one creature with antifreeze/skill drain/vitality drain, and that very creature was frozen, there is no way of it getting antifrozen except tokens, nor would the skill/vit drain take place. Similarly, if defender had 2 creatures with antifreeze/skill drain/vit drain, and both got frozen by the attacker, there is no way the two could get antifrozen except tokens, nor would they cause skill/vit drain, if the remaining creatures in the defender's ritual did not have antifreeze that landed on them.

 

Same is the case for more than 2^^

Edited September 17, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Ary Endleg]

LOL man, what are you expecting, 1 creature with single antifreeze not being token but aura, normally means that it has to "hit", it will pick one of 6 slots, if it's creature, it gets unfrozen, if it's empty it picks again, if it's again empty, tough luck buddy! This behavior implies, just read Point III. Point two speaks of 6v6 fights with max antifreezes/freezes applied, called the ideal situation.

 

Lets remove tokens out of play. Meaning you can have 15 antifreezes. All it takes is that one out of 15 unfreezes one of your 3 drachs :)) it will happen buddy. Add tokens. antifreeze token has 50% chance it will succeed and it is directly applied to creature. Add blooddrop2, you got principles? Awesome, automatic antifreeze, no worries there.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Ary Endleg

[Azthor]

A few things, if I may, so I can edit the present topic.

 

I - Has Chewett been sent the details on the token descriptions, or can anyone otherwise check them and pass them forward? The only ones I have access to are the following:

 

SHOP

Anti Freeze tokens to give it a chance against freezing attacks.

Blood Drop Tokens ... or even unfreeze ability depending on token level and principles combination.

Token Description

Antifreeze gives a chance for creature to escape freezing during combat

Blooddrop2 gives permanent immunity from freeze

 

 

But I do not know to what extent they are correct.

 

II - Am I correct in understanding that the two relevant tokens apply: for the attacker, before the defender's auras, and, for the defender, after the attacker's auras?

 

III - Does the Antifreeze aura of Frozen creatures proc on themselves, or does being Frozen prevent the aura from firing off, as I can confirm to be the case with Skill and Vitality Drain?

Edited September 18, 2014 by Azthor

[Ary Endleg]

I - yes those should be the token information in question.

Anti Freeze tokens to give it a chance against freezing attacks. - this one is wrong because it doesn't prevent freezing attacks

Blood Drop Tokens ... or even unfreeze ability depending on token level and principles combination. - personally I don't like the word "ability" being used

Antifreeze gives a chance for creature to escape freezing during combat - this is okay, depending how you take the word "freezing" it won't save you from the freeze aura

 

II - good reminder, I sometimes confuse myself on this, and I even wrote wrong the part about tokens when I was replying to DD. order goes like this: attacker's tokens, defender's tokens, attacker's auras, defender's auras.

 

III - Freeze doesn't affect the auras, auras will always work. Antifreeze will work, but it's targeting is random, it can hit same empty spot twice.

[Rophs]

I propose this:

• Freeze will always target a slot containing a creature and will target slots containing frozen creatures with a lower priority than slots that contain frozen creatures
  1. A random slot containing a nonfrozen creature
  2. A random slot containing a creature

 

• Antifreeze will always target a slot containing a creature and will target slots containing frozen creatures with a higher priority than slots that do not contain frozen creatures.
  1. A random slot containing frozen creature
  2. A random slot containing a creature
      
• Auras will be applied in the same order as they are now, with the exception of Freeze and Antifreeze. Freeze will always be applied first. Antifreeze will always be applied second. All other auras will be applied in the same order they are no applied in.
  1. All freeze auras
  2. All antifreeze auras
  3. All of attacker's auras except for freeze and antifreeze
  4. All of defender's auras except for freeze and antifreeze

[DARK DEMON]

 

I propose this:

• Freeze will always target a slot containing a creature and will target slots containing frozen creatures with a lower priority than slots that contain frozen creatures
  1. A random slot containing a nonfrozen creature
  2. A random slot containing a creature

 

• Antifreeze will always target a slot containing a creature and will target slots containing frozen creatures with a higher priority than slots that do not contain frozen creatures.
  1. A random slot containing frozen creature
  2. A random slot containing a creature
      
• Auras will be applied in the same order as they are now, with the exception of Freeze and Antifreeze. Freeze will always be applied first. Antifreeze will always be applied second. All other auras will be applied in the same order they are no applied in.
  1. All freeze auras
  2. All antifreeze auras
  3. All of attacker's auras except for freeze and antifreeze
  4. All of defender's auras except for freeze and antifreeze

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is totally insane.

 

This will make most defenders' antifreeze completely useless because the attacker is now more likely to freeze the defender's antifreeze creatures first. Basically, your proposition would mean that there are more chances of all 6 defenders' creatures getting frozen, nothing else.

 

Your second bullet point is equally not thought of, Rophs, because defenders' creatures will never have a chance to antifreeze in the first place; they'll already be frozen beforehand because attacker's freeze would apply before theirs.

 

 

Rant: I really love how people are so much into freeze. Lets face it, apart from grinders and those with high stats and lots of tokens, we usually say that no stats/ve makes it a fair skill test, but it doesn't! As long as freeze exists, it will never be. Freeze is what is against the combat system's rule that every ritual has a counter ritual, because any ritual can be made to fail because of freeze, whether stats exist or not. Rophs' idea will only make this worse.

Edited September 18, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Ary Endleg]

Btw I forgot to mention that blooddrop2 gives 10% initiative bonus which isn't mentioned anywhere, not in shop nor token description.

 

Better proposition would be that if freezes and antifreezes target only slots with creature in it without regards if it's frozen or not :p This would also remove it' second wind ability where hitting empty slot triggers another try.

Problem with this idea at current state of game is that it basically means that antifreeze aura will always unfreeze creature in defense, enabling me to set defense with single drach on 100% and it would be unfrozen no matter what since antifreeze aura goes last, such defense would be so strong that only way to beat it would be to attack with 2 drachs on 100% and you having 2 times bigger stats (assumingly, too lazy to calculate creature boost for 2 drachs :D) than defender. It wouldn't fare well.

 

No DD. It means that now attacker can counter freeze, currently he can't. Defender's antifreeze still goes after attacker's freeze. It's interesting idea, but it sort of nerfs defender's advantage. Attacker has advantage of combo as well as initiative (not initative stat) because he is the active one while defender is passive one, thus he would after probing defenses know what defender has and build counter ritual. (okay scratch that last one since currently such thing as One Ritual to Rule Them All exists, hence attacker doesn't need to probe and create counter ritual :D )

[Rophs]

If your drach is on 100% then it has an absurd amount of vitality, two reindrachs to provide full antifreeze coverage along with a tormented soul to reduce your damage and bolster my defenses plus two single target lifestealers would allow me to effectively take zero damage from that ritual while still quickly whittling it down via lifesteal and finishing it off with my drachs. If your "fat baby" doesn't have freeze then the counterritual could be further improved by using sharptears, single target lifestealers, and a tormented soul.

[DARK DEMON]

Defender's antifreeze still goes after attacker's freeze

 
No, currently it does not, if the creature with antifreeze gets frozen by the attacker. Just an example: I attack with 1 rusty only, defender has 1 rein for def. My rusty freezes the rein first, because I'm the attacker. Now the rein's triple antifreeze will not work, it won't even ever happen.
 
Are you aware of this? Because from what you say here:

LOL man, what are you expecting, 1 creature with single antifreeze not being token but aura, normally means that it has to "hit", it will pick one of 6 slots, if it's creature, it gets unfrozen, if it's empty it picks again, if it's again empty, tough luck buddy! This behavior implies, just read Point III. Point two speaks of 6v6 fights with max antifreezes/freezes applied, called the ideal situation.

It shows that you are not aware and you have misunderstood what I was trying to say earlier.

 

Edited September 18, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Rophs]

 
No, currently it does not, if the creature with antifreeze gets frozen by the attacker. Just an example: I attack with 1 rusty only, defender has 1 rein for def. My rusty freezes the rein first, because I'm the attacker. Now the rein's triple antifreeze will not work, it won't even ever happen.
 
Are you aware of this? Because from what you say here:

It shows that you are not aware and you have misunderstood what I was trying to say earlier.

 

This is bullcrap, you're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything useful to the discussion.

 

Under the new freeze design I mentioned above it was implied that a frozen creature's antifreeze auras would still trigger normally. I will repost it here, with slight changes to explicitly communicate how I intend for antifreeze to work.

 

• Freeze will always target a slot containing a creature and will target slots containing frozen creatures with a lower priority than slots that contain frozen creatures
  1. A random slot containing a nonfrozen creature
  2. If there are no more slots containing a nonfrozen creature then the aura will stop searching for targets

 

• Antifreeze will always target a slot containing a creature and will target slots containing frozen creatures with a higher priority than slots that do not contain frozen creatures, if a creature with antifreeze is frozen it will unfreeze itself before unfreezing other creatures. A creature's antifreeze aura will always trigger, even if that creature is not frozen.
  1. A slot containing a frozen creature with the antifreeze aura
  2. A random slot containing frozen creature
  3. A random slot containing a creature
  4. If there are no more slots containing creatures then the aura will stop searching for targets
      
• Auras will be applied in the same order as they are now, with the exception of Freeze and Antifreeze. Freeze will always be applied first. Antifreeze will always be applied second. All other auras will be applied in the same order they are no applied in.
  1. All freeze auras
  2. All antifreeze auras
  3. All of attacker's auras except for freeze and antifreeze
  4. All of defender's auras except for freeze and antifreeze

Edited September 18, 2014 by Rophs

[Ary Endleg]

DD what you are saying, that's not how it works as far as I remember in tests with darky, but then again we weren't chasing that exact situation. Before further argue, I guess this needs some additional testing. You got freezes? I got antifreezes. Contact me so we can do some tests, I want to fully see it. So far I go by this:

 

 

III - Freeze doesn't affect the auras, auras will always work. Antifreeze will work, but it's targeting is random, it can hit same empty spot twice.

 

I also see claims that priest aura does not work due to freeze. I personally didn't notice that but I wasn't really looking into this exact situation. That means there's a lot of testing to do. Afterwards we will continue discussion on how it currently works.

 

In Rophs suggestion, things change, even if currently frozen creature's auras don't work (which I doubt is currently the case), in his concept they don't stop working. Meaning frozen creature will still use it's aura's.

 

Rophs you can also just skip step 3, if system already knows there are no frozen creatures left and if frozen creatures have priority in picking, then no point in doing loop on unfrozen creatures.

[Azthor]

The divergence between Ary Endleg and DarkDemon is the very reason I brought said point III up. Further testing is, indeed, required.

 

The tokens, according to the tests conducted within the other thread, would be nigh entirely useless. While that might be working as intended, I find it more likely they simply aren't well integrated with the action order, going by Chewett's previous comments.

 

Finally, concerning Bloodrop2, are  you positive of which it in no way or fashion implies an initiative bonus might come as a result of a given combination of principles?

Edited September 18, 2014 by Azthor

[DARK DEMON]

Nothing at all works if a defender's creature/s are frozen by the attacker and there is no way to antifreeze it. No auras, no freeze and no antifreeze will be shown by the frozen creature. Its completely removed from the fight, in other words. The only way to bring it back is to have another creature, which is safe and has not been frozen by the attacker, to land its antifreeze on the frozen creature.

 

And this is what I tested today, though by myself. I'd love to do it with you guys again :)

Edited September 18, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Rophs]

Does anybody have any complaints/issues with my proposed model for the rework of free/antifreeze? I certainly think it is more balanced than the current mechanics for freeze/antifreeze.

[Ary Endleg]

Regarding Blooddrop2. As far as I remember it isn't, but I also remember something about blooddrop3 or 1 and initiative bonus. Currently I can't look up these information and point up things. Will let you know shortly.

 

You have my initial input on your idea, I would still like to do tests to see if something was missed in current workings, if so then situation needs to be reassessed, maybe nothing needs to be changed in first place. But based on my initial knowledge of current situation, disregarding the new unconfirmed findings, I'm not sure change would be needed because I'm unsure if removing this advantage from defender is good or bad idea. Currently this advantage is the semi-luck factor that gives edge to defender against ulti rit. However that still leaves attacker's antifreeze useless. Some people like how it is, some don't and some don't like freeze idea at all. Lets wait first to see how situation develops after tests. (might take few hours or few days)

[Burns]

It's absolutely not balanced, it renders freeze completely useless because double and triple-af is rather easy to get. Pack 2 reins or 3 hollows in a rit and you're completely unfreezeable.

[Rophs]

Attacking with a ritual containing 0 freezes would then be the counter to a sextuple antifreeze ritual. Having three hollows in a ritual where their antifreeze won't be used is an awful waste of three creature slots. Reindrachs, in my opinion, have a power level much higher than what would be needed for a healthy and moderately balanced metagame and are not considered in my proposed reworks of various of the combat system (I think they need a rework too, so that there should be a reason you would want to pick a GG drach instead of a Reindrach in various situations)

[Ary Endleg]

It's absolutely not balanced, it renders freeze completely useless because double and triple-af is rather easy to get. Pack 2 reins or 3 hollows in a rit and you're completely unfreezeable.

 

Yes that's what I understand so far, yet this is only case for defender, attacker can still get frozen.