Torch Ideas

[Fenrir Greycloth]

My first idea for the torches are to list basic information on their page before you attack them. More often than not, I find myself attacking an MP3/4 wasting valuable seconds because I could not see if they were an MP3/4. Also, I am not sure if honour or loyalty is a matter in these battles, but because they are not listed anymore, I cannot tell if I will gain negative honour or not.

My second is to remove the Jump to Leader spell for those in an alliance. I was able to jump all the way from Loreroot to Wind's Sanctuary in one step, attack someone and jump inside the Sanctuary. A little unreasonable.

My third idea is a bit different, I would like to see a set ammount of steps you are allowed while participating in the torch olympics. This way, instead of running two steps and waiting to regen, there is a more tactical side to this. As I noticed yesterday, a large group of people from Marind's Bell sat outside Raven's Hold in order to attack anyone that walked out of it to gain points. Last time I checked, MRD had 8 points just sitting there and attacking an MP5 walking through. This would set a limit on how many points one can gain from this. (Perhaps a set limit on how many kills one can gain is more feasable?)

My forth idea is to restrict the number of players from each side. At one point, Marind's Bell had 33 players while Loreroot had 6. I do not believe this is close to fair. Maybe a 5-8 man difference should be made so that there will not be an over whelming odds against any team.

My fifth idea includes additional Land Weapons. Not the huge monsters that we can only dream of using, but actual items like traps, and NPCs that we can set. When you have a torch you can purchase a single trap from your castle and stratigically set it where ever you want. Some traps that could be included are Step reducers, VE stealers, and Random teleporters. Each costing more than the others. This will help even out the playing field for those Uber strong MP5s... MRD... >.>

Anyways, if you have any comments or further suggestions please post them!

[awiiya]

The only real change I would make to this is more steps.

2 is just not enough. I understand that you want us to take this slowly, but if there are not enough people playing... it's just boring sitting in one location waiting for people. The faster this can go, the more fun people will have. Part of the appeal of the Heads Contest is that it requires lightning reflexes to take heads, and you can appear, take heads, then disappear

Another suggestion is make the minimum kills 5, and take away the AP crippling effects. What this will do is allow people to move freely around and attack quickly and effectively, and it will allow people to run away, catch, etc. This will make it less of a arduous walk with very little action to a split second sprint all around the land.

My opinion, take it or leave it.

Overall though, I had fun. Using the Jump to leader (GO VOLTRON) and Team Necrovion were highlights.

Awi

[Jester]

Jump to leader was literally the only thing that made that competition fun for me, without it I wouldn't even bother to play it again. However, I agree it is a bit one sided. I don't know if this is possible, but maybe each torch could be its own alliance, with a leader being chosen beforehand and that leader always having a torch. That way, everyone could tactically use jump to leader for maximum effect.

Moving a single screen and being left with no AP to attack is incredibly boring to me, I like attacking and disappearing before anyone realizes they're dead. Also making the torch a temporary alliance of its own would have the added effect of allowing everyone to attack everyone, and we wouldn't be left sitting outside the capitol with no kills and 3 enemy MP4s sitting there doing nothing. I don't remember how illusions worked, but I'm pretty certain there was no penalty to loyalty for becoming an illusion with an alliance, and that's how this way could work.

When the enemy leader is killed, instead of just dieing they could be sent back to their capitol, and unable to move for a shorter period of time then people stay dead. This would add an additional element to it, because people would go out of their way to take out the enemy leader to prevent reinforcements from jumping in.

Once again, not sure if this is possible, but I think this way would make it a lot more fun.

[Liberty4life]

this contest is totally unbalanced, i dont think i will play this again

[dst]

Lib, it's just the first time we play it. It's the oportunity to find as many things that do not work and improve them for the future.

I hope The torch will have a better fate than HC. HC started as a really awesome contest and ended up as a bad one. TT starts as a bad one (ok, not that bad but highly exploitable) and will end up (I really hope so) a fun, nice, killer contest

[stormrunner]

I like awiiya idea of having ap but need more kills to score. it make this actually fun. I didn't even bother after dieing twice(once from MRD, the other because of being unable to hit and move or really move at all. and shady's thought's on jump to leader are fairly good.

[Chewett]

i like how the contest sounded but it seems as it it needs to be fairer. ie set a limit on the difference as stated before

But since i couldnt compete i dont really think i should add my opinion

[Liberty4life]

look dst, mur cant do nothing about few things.... he will need to make shortcuts to capitals or to make longer way to winds sanct, as long as getting to opponents capital is easier for your, than for opponent to reach yours, its unplayable, mb actually cant defend it self, loreroot can go other way around, from hidden exit, and heresy lane and sanctuary view are mda locations, and after them is wind sanct so mb players cant effectively defend them selves from that road, and even if lorerootians go in normal way, for example lr player needs 3 regens to reach wind sanct since entering land, while mb player needs to have 7-8 regens (since fortunes well belong to loreroot thats really tricky for many player who dont know this and therefore they lose in here all ap but one that adds one more additional regen for them to wait before reaching lr capital) to reach capital, and also regen times play big part

so as long as there is different distance in each land from entering it to reaching its capital, as long as regen times arent same for all torch carriers and as long as one team cant properly defend its capital this cant be played, everything else can be fixed easily, but how will mur make same distances for everyone?

[dst]

Random solutions (some of them really dumb) that popped in my mind:
-Hidden exit can be closed for players carrying torches.
-different regen times (based on distances) - i bet there will be players who will the math up to the 3rd decimal to say exactly how many regens, time etc
-more players for one of the team (the "handicap" one)
-"merge" MB and MDA just for the torch carriers (this is for the land thingy)
- keep Cless at the LHE and ask him to attack everything that moves and has a torch (yeah, defense not only offense)

Conclusion: solutions exist. We just need to find the best ones. And we can do that by playing and finding the parts that do not fit the "machine" or make it run bad.

[Liberty4life]

eh like cless can stay in there for 24/7

[dst]

From all my bright ideas you picked on THAT one....

[Liberty4life]

well with all due respect, in my opinion that one sounded most promising

[dst]

Errr...thanks?

[Yami no Sakura]

I actually kinda liked this torch thing. It's like the Land Wars...only without the politics. xD

My only major concern is the AP draining. Sapping all but 1 AP per step is a bit much. I understand the idea behind it (penalties for being out of one's land affiliation and such), but taking all 139 of my AP in one step is overkill. The idea is to penalize the players, not to cripple them, right? >>
So, maybe just make the cost higher, like 15-20 AP per step. It'll slow us down enough that we're not charging around like crazy, but it won't keep us stranded at that one scene until the timer resets.

I think that's about it. There are minor grievances with protector spells *cough*glanceshiftstoacertainsomeoneinthecrowd*cough* and "jump to leader" options, but those have already been brought up.

[Metal Bunny]

Well, if you saw the new announcement, you'll know that Mur is busy like an awesome invincible bee.

Thus, further ideas I got, which are just a furtherment of Fenrir's (they are mainly roleplay solutions, integrated into the game) :

1: They are torches, could it be possible to ''light up'' the players who are carying a torch? Like, instead of orange, make then red.
2: Okay, so maybe the torches are like, omega heavy and drain all our ap, except 1. Which, kinda doesn't make sense. If ap costs would just multiply with a certain factor, like Yami suggested, (except the gates ><), it would make more sense.

I was thinking about this, and you could make a roleplay solution for the score thingy here too. For example (if you feel like drawing more stuff) you could get like, hooks or pieces of rope upon which would hang skulls of your dead enemies (or torches for you more squeemish/less necrovion people). These skulls/torches (which determine your score) would then hang from your torch, each skull increasing the size of the torch, and the weight.
(get where I am going with this? )

It's kind of a Heads Contest modifier, except it affects AP.
This could mean that if you had 0 skulls/score/torches, you could walk normally, like the non-torch people.
Having 1 would increase each ap cost with 1: so fighting costs 4 ap, walking costs 2 ap (except gates ><).
Having 2 skulls however, would just double it: fighting costs 8 ap, walking 4 ap.
3 means 16 ap for fighting, 8 for walking.

At one point, super slayers like MRD would have to make an [i]economical choice[/i].
For example, MRD logs in again, he sees he has, for example, 100 ap.
He has 5 skulls. Fighting costs 64 ap. He would probably win, which would leave him with 6 skulls.
Walking would then cost 64 ap. MRD is 1 step away from the capitol. He has 100-64=36 ap left.
Now MRD has to wait another 10 minutes to get his 6 points.

But what if MRD knows a lot of enemies slipped past him (due to lack of ap). All those enemies had 0 skulls, so he knows they would be waiting at his own capitol. (o skulls means they can't get score, so no need to distress yourself MRD )
Wouldn't it be far better for MRD to instead, use 32 ap to go the enemy capitol, cash in on the 5 points. (Upon which he automatically gets teleported back to his own capitol, almost certainly before his enemies) And then, pick up another torch, go out and use his remaining 68 ap to beat the cr*p out of every enemy he comes across and then, not only preventing enemies from possibly getting skulls and scoring, but also, with enough ap, scoring another handfull of points.

Anyway, these numbers are just examples, to illustrate , in fact, after 6 wins, most wouldn't be able to attack anymore

So.. yeah.. score = ap modifier, just like heads = skill modifier in Heads Contest, sounds like a nice, roleplay solution to me.

Thoughts anyone?

Edited April 18, 2009 by Metal Bunny

[Yami no Sakura]

I like the idea, Bunny. =)

Kill two birds with one stone. Your proposal would simultaneously solve the problem with the ungodly AP drain and the issue with people hoarding kills.

[Liberty4life]

unlike most of you, i actually like current ap system... makes game become slowed paced and more strategical and every action is exactly timed which makes it all again fully strategical, although game is much slower it involves much more strategy, becoz of it i actually make 3 "ambushes" in enemy territory, although one failed XD after all this contest is team game, you cant play alone effectively, keep that in mind

[Metal Bunny]

True liberty, it would make it strategical.
What I think you forget is however, that people can still stay strategical, except in a less, turn-based mode. (Which frankly, I have no problem with, I actually love turn-based games, however that just doesn't fit this game, IMO)

One can still ambush people (gates will forever stay a bottleneck, ESPECIALLY (><) when you are in MB and want to go into loreroot in one enormous rush (you lose at least 50 for both gates), now imagine if each gate would then use up all the ap, and that every step in enemy territory costs double ap, along with the skull ap modifier, I think you get a whole lot more interesting gameplay.
With the whole, when to defend, when to attack. The whole, ''know your enemy, know thyself, etc" would then become much more fluid and creates, IMO a more strategic gameplay, especially if you have spies in enemy territories.

You see, turn based-ness can remove the need for spies, especially here, because we all know the route to the capitol's and, for example, there is only 1 route to loreroot and 2 to MB.

Let's say we are fighting for MB. IF it was turn-based, it would mean the enemy would know exactly where and when we are, and ambush us, as there is only 1 way to the loreroot capitol and we can only move 2 steps max.

What the result is, is that eventually only the strongest survive and maybe a few weaker people in the dead of the night.
There isn't a lot of strategy here, except laying out ambushes.

But, now let's imagine, skull ap-modifiers, with of couse, ap penalties in enemy territories and bonus in homeland.
With more fluid ap movement, rushes to our capitol become a viable danger. Remember, rushes can be done by weaker players as well (which is so much more fair and realistic than just MRD brutalizing everyone in sight)
To prevent that we would have to either put patrolmen near our borders who alert us of strong invaders (they can handle weak ones), or not take any chances and go on the full defense and put our strongest members as defenders by the borders and close to the capitol as a last line of defense.
OR, we could rush out and try to score more points than the enemy, defeating as much as possible on the way, but this leaves us open for even the weakest of invaders. But who knows? Blitzkrieg sometimes works perfectly, catch the enemy unawares and be back in the homeland before they know what happened.

You know what this opens up? Spy positions. Spies who infiltrate enemy ranks and tell us what the strategy is, or perhaps just simple skirmishes to probe our enemy's defenses. Maybe ''innocent'' people who can tell us about enemy movements.

This brings another aspect into the war game. Namely, war support. Let's say that we are paranoid and don't trust any innocent people, perhaps we can force them out (this is a new idea btw) and push them into no man's land, all just to prevent spies from knowing our movements.

However, people do not like that and instead, rally to the defense of Loreroot. Imagine if loreroot had a really cunning and crafty spy, who infiltrated the enemy ranks, who in fact can give loreroot a lot better information than any other innocent bystander could give. The army of MB decides to go with a rush on 16:20 server time. The spy tells loreroot and blammo, no longer are lorerootians probing defenses, or trying to break in, no.
Instead they plan to ambush them at a certain place, with all of their might gathered in one huge cluster, in their own territory, to beat off the rush. Only the strong one's defend.
Their weak players quickly kill 1 weak player of MB, go in and score some points.

See how this can create a lot more exciting warfare?
Turn-based can be strategic indeed, but it lacks spies IMO and as we all know, this is a roleplaying game. Shouldn't war have some roleplay aspects like spies?

[Burns]

that makes me think of another nice litlle addition...
to have some nice little tactical arrangements, would it be possible to integrate a chat like ally chat where only torch-holders have access in the normal map-window? obviously every torchholder in every place could use that chat to have a more instant means of contacting other torchholders...

maybe we could even get a nice little purple message 'XXX just died by an attack of YYY' in there, too see who died and therefore lost access to that chat...

[Liberty4life]

actually buns, i have to disappoint ya, all this happened in this contest just not in that large numbers, and tell me wtf you think that guys will play together just becoz they are holding same torch, dont think so just one example is mr family, they will play as one team no matter who else carries same torch as them, and it is possible to avoid ambushes

[Grido]

to not comment on what has been said previously (i like some of those suggestinons btw)

the system that was in place meant that people in loreroot alliances with Lore torch(well me anyway) lost only 1AP in Loreroot, and obviosly more in MB, i presume the opposite is the same MBans with MB torch, yet those allied with other lands with the Loreroot torch suffered the penalty of travel to their AP while there

[Liberty4life]

yes thats exactly another problem, if you are in alliance in mda, you lose only 1 ap in mda while in all other lands you lose all ap except one, no matter which torch you carry