Market Values

[Kriskah Arcanu]

[b]Inflation[/b]
I think we should take some measures to avoid inflation.

I am no expert but I think we should put a limit on item's values so the don't turn over-priced. I cannot determine an amount but if somebody asks 20 MDS for an item, I believe we should not pay that quantity.

An equilibrium of wealth is also needed, for that I am promoting the spread of the MDS. I also suggest to avoid excesive item's collections (6 items= excesive), that way items can spread too and don't become priceless exentricities.

[b]Gold coins[/b]
I have asked some people about the value of a MDG.
Could we agree to set this value on 15 MDS?

Regards,
K

Edited May 7, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[stormrunner]

hmm, that seems a little high to me but for now since gold is so rare I guess it works

[Udgard]

Hmm.. it's probably hard to do that.. For some items, I would not pay 20 coins, but for others I might consider that amount ridiculously undervaluing the item. It would all again return to how a person values the item and the coin..

[Kriskah Arcanu]

[quote name='Udgard' post='30526' date='May 7 2009, 12:20 PM']Hmm.. it's probably hard to do that.. For some items, I would not pay 20 coins, but for others I might consider that amount ridiculously undervaluing the item. It would all again return to how a person values the item and the coin..[/quote]

I see your point Udgard.
But...Hmm How do I put this? We need to be fair and balanced so this "economic experiment" help us build a market accesible to everyone. If we fail, we will have a 6-8 people trading with big amounts of gold coins and the rest of the MD comuntity just totally outside the economic system.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[stormrunner]

here a thought on the item Market Values with silver/gold

common items = 1 or 2 silver
items noted as for item creation quest or being magic in nature = 3 - 5
rare = 5 to 10 or a 1 gold depending on if magical in nature or just hard to find
role related = no body going to trade but can be used as reason for refusing reasonable trade without scorn but no body need more then 3 of this and the extreme high end

[Udgard]

It's probably just me, but I think if the 6-8 people mentioned trade big amounts of coins, then the coins will get spread to the other players, and the economy will flow. It is unavoidable that the $$ rich will have the advantage (FYI, I'm a pure free credits player, so I suffer as well), but once they use their coins to trade for the items they want, then the coins will spread to the others. Now without a price limit, they would pay higher for the items they really want, because they will value their silvers less-simply because they have so many of them. But if there's a price limit, then those with a lot of silver can just offer the items at the limit price and buy (then hoard) more items due to the lower price.

@storm: I believe that people would want mroe than 3 of the role related items, especially as their role grows. It is probably one of the reasons for Kragel and my role, to create custom items for people who want to compliment their role more and more. And for those custom-made items, I believe it's ok if they don't want to trade it out, even when they have more than 3.

[Kriskah Arcanu]

I really cannot predict what will happen. All i can say is:
If only a few players trade, they naturally will become item's collectors, then items will be priceless.
Maybe newplayers will start winning a few coins in Quests, and maybe in a month they will have 3 or 4 MDS, but if they see items over-priced they wont participate on the economy, that's it.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Liberty4life]

it really is true that by all statistics gold should be worth less silver, but lets face it player with enough credits can get all silver with ease, becoz silver is in same section, while gold is last item in each section, that makes it a way harder to reach it, so for free credit guys gold is worth more than 15 silver, and to the ones who donate gold is less worth, especially if they use resets and buy whole shop again, but not everybody has this possibility thus making it hard to get, that means its rare, and thats why gold is in my opinion priced with 15 silver

[Lifeline]

i really dont get how u guys put values on these coins. i didnt keep on reading the silver coin thread because it was just to unrealistic.
but let me get this straigh 15 worthless silver coins that are nothing but a small little bonus added to a useful statboosts should be worth a real MDShop item, a gold coin?
dunno where the mp4 xp cap is right now but i guess no mp4 can ever buy it and mp6 have a really hard time getting it since its really hard to get honor. it has huge requirements and is at the end of the shop and not at he very beginning like the BONUS silver coins that come with the metal orb. the gold coin also gives u perm stats.
2 are rather easy to get to - in the extra features and perm boosters branch but that still takes more than 20 credits to get to one of them. and what is a rusty worth 51credits... and now a gold coin is worth 15 little bonus items that just are a little add from a real item?
i really dont get it even in the shortest MDShop branch it takes at least 20 CREDITS to get to a gold coin. in other branches it takes over 100. and u guys say that 15 aditions/bonuses are worth one?

[Kriskah Arcanu]

Would somebody please PM a sumarized translation (with simpler words) of what Lifeline just said? I've read it twice and I still don´t get the complete idea

We can go on and on over this "currency" discussion, but please don't desestimate the value of a market place for MD just because of its difficulties. It a huge task to recreate an economy, but I am gonna try anyways because is it fun. It will bring other type of interaccions possibilities inside the realm and I belive many people will enjoy it. So don't destroy this just because it sound weird and unrealistic, since it is entirily up to us to make this work.

K

Edited May 7, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Lifeline]

woah dont get me wrong i never attacked the market place i just stated my opinion on the value of silver and gold coins. and that i dont get how people tag them as being worth this much or this much.

[Burns]

Life's points are easy [maybe just to me, we have the same native tongue and therefore the same mistakes, i guess XD]:

Gold Coins are Items, and they are worth something, while Silver Coins are worthless because they are just gifts you get for buying valueable (real) items.

opinon backed!


but you already know my hippie-approach to that whole MD-ecomony business^^

and setting prices for items won't work that good, as all will say that the items they own are necessary RP-items and therefore worth at least 100 bucks...
i can remember a girl claiming that yellow herbs were an item that was MOST important to her role, even though she had no clue how to make a potion out of it, or at least smoke it ;-)

but i'm sure i just misinterpreted that, and the importance for the role was not the item, but having a quest reward (which one can get at every corner, see Jesterfest-thread)... yeah, i can't have got that right, as i'm totally crazy and all that...

I'd rather suggest that you concentrate on the attempt of finding ways of creating new items than getting those of the hoarders back into the system...
if you make items that are created by YOU for the market, you can make sure that they are NOT part of someones RP from the beginning, and poeple will most likely pay little for items that not fit their RP and a lot for itmes they need...
and, of course, you need to keep track of all prices an item has in it's lifetime, so people don't buy it for 2 silver and then say they are RP-necessary, intradeable items and want to get 50 creds and a drach for it... then you can come and say 'OH NO, pal, 5 creds don't buy you an RP-item, sell it for less than 8 creds or we'll destroy it again, no hoarding economy-items' [oh yes, i suggest Krishka and Kragel get that ability]

thanks for your attention, and if i misread your post, let me know, Life^^

Edited May 7, 2009 by Burns

[Kriskah Arcanu]

I used the Yellow herbs (medicinal herbs) on a Quest (the first one I made), it was important to me. Then I sold them. The same will hapen with the flask, which I will sell when my upcomming Quest is over.

I understand Rol related items, believe me I know they are priceless. I was talking about commun items whitch I am afraid they migh become collected too.

Like I said before. I don't disagree with item's collectors. What I do not endorse is when these items are kept from others for no reason. Items should be used.

Please, do not use personal recriminations to make your point more valuable, I really don't apreciate that aproach on a public debate.

K

Edited May 7, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[I am Bored]

couldn't we also have new players starting out with some silver (or if not some silver then some bronze, keep reading to see what i am talking about)? in accompiement with this we should also increase the number of coins you get in the shop for buying the items that give them, so that there would still be a good reason for people to buy it (we do want the website to still get enough money to survive right?) and i think the gold coins should be kept exclusivly in the md shop but i think that there should be another level of coins, bronze coins, and as i suggested above i think that you should start out with some, and i think that the bronze should be able to be converted to, and from silver coins, but i don't think silver should be able to be converted into gold. that way we can have some healthy inflation, as i think it is to early to start trying to reduce inflation, or set standard prices on items, or things of that nature.

[Burns]

history is not objective, Krishka, and if we don't learn from it we are damned to repeat it [one of the many wisdoms my History Teacher gave us on the way]

so, i'm sorry if you feel offended, but that shows only that the point was valid...
i could have taken Shadow or Junior, who have the most useless items and call them RP-necessary, but they would most likely never have read this thread and therefore people would never have known if i tell the truth or am just making things up... ;-)

and maybe there should be a way of obtaining bronze coins through certain game mechanics...
what about one bronze coin per active day? or 5 per sacrificed creature?

and rate of change... 40 bronze -> 1 silver?

[Kriskah Arcanu]

Sorry... what was your point again?... silver coins are worthless, everybody can get a quest reward in every corner... I should concentrate on creating items...

ok got it,

thank you so much, that was very helpfull.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[awiiya]

Oh, I like the idea of getting bronze, but I think it might push the game TOO much towards a currency. There is a reason why heat is not being used as currency, it is far too easy to get.

And as for the value of silver and gold, I myself will never accept silver OR gold for anything I have to sell. The instability of it is too great.

Who is to stop everyone from deciding that it is useless, and then I will be stuck with useless silver.

Awi

[Kriskah Arcanu]

[quote name='awiiya' post='30618' date='May 8 2009, 02:02 PM']Oh, I like the idea of getting bronze, but I think it might push the game TOO much towards a currency. There is a reason why heat is not being used as currency, it is far too easy to get.

And as for the value of silver and gold, I myself will never accept silver OR gold for anything I have to sell. The instability of it is too great.

Who is to stop everyone from deciding that it is useless, and then I will be stuck with useless silver.

Awi[/quote]

Well then the question might be: [b]What can be done to have a more stable currency?[/b]
From what I have read on this thread I believe some mesures seam to be needed for people to gain more confidence on this type of currency: do you believe bronze is the solution?

Unfortunatly it is not in my power to solve this situation. I can only encourage the debate (hopely on a respectfull eviroment) so we can agree at least in a few points and maneage to advance in one direction, not just bumping into each other argumentations.

I agree, the value of MDS has been cuestionable several times with strong arguments. Also the idea of selling items (any type) has generated a debate.

Nevertheless recently we had an item's auction, paralel from the slavery auction. And items where sold for MDS. So I wont underestimate the capacity form people to accept this symbolic currency as an trading instrument.


K

Edited May 8, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Burns]

Let see... real currencies are backed by Gold and limited by a national bank...

I guess Silver needs a limitation in order to keep its value, so its gotta be taken out of the shop and needs a fixed number in the game-realms... like, 1000 coins that can be traded or something...

this sets the idea of bronze and easy-attainable coins off, obviously...

Then i would see the value of a coin, too, limited supplies make valueable things, it's as easy as that imo

just an idea...
obvious problem: no more extra coins for those who support the game, cept for buying creatures and selling them to people who have coins :/

Edit @ next post: yeah, i know that it wasn't really backed, but that's the intention ;-)

and fortunately enough, we don't need a backed currency, it works good enough wihout being backed [no amtter whether game or real as long as people believe in the value], but it won't work without limitations... it's like German Reichs-Mark in WW2, they printed billions and after a while people knew that there was too much money and it lost ALL it's value, even though it still had some...

you can look the story up if you want, moral of it: [seemingly] unlimited cash -> failure for an economy

Edited May 8, 2009 by Burns

[Kragel]

real money has not been backed by gold for a LOOOONG time though it should be still


as to figuring the value of the gold coin it will fulx like the silver does and until there is an agreed on value for it and the silver and anything else that may come then this topic will never be truly open for a real discussion

Edited May 8, 2009 by Kragel

[Lifeline]

gold is pretty limited in my point of view. u cant make alts to buy it for credits since it needs huge amounts of xp that even exceeds mp4s xp cap. and only 2 gold coins are rather easly accessible in the shop the other 3 take a lot of credits. and shop resets are really limited.
silver has no value in my point of view nothing stops ppl from making a new account sending it a gift of 5 credits and then buying metal orbs with the bonus silver coin.

[Kriskah Arcanu]

When I started with this whole idea of a marketplace for MD, it was mostly a new RP activity to be included on the game, that’s it. It was a simple project.
When people gain interest in the marketplace, this matter gain so much complexity so it is quite hard to keep track of all the ideas an argumentations about currency, item creation and their properties.
It is good in terms of debate, I am not complaining I truly enjoy this discussion and I hope Mur find it interesting too, but again, since there is no agreement, the debate increases the difficult for the market implementation.
For now I’ll invite you, like I did before to symbolically establish just a few parameters for the trading so we can actually have an item’s marketplace on MD. Items, for now, (since they have no properties added yet) have only the value we want to give them, apparently silver coins too (since they are worthless to some people) so it can be done.

Again, as a merchan I deffinitly won't pay for over-priced items, if they are so expensive I will asume they are very important for the character roll, so they better stay where they are. So i won't pay 20 MDS for an item.
Equilibrium of wealth is also needed, nevertheless I won't be asking collecters to stop collecting. I think that is not my roll.
I will just keep promoting the spread of the MDS so everyone can buy items on the MD's Market, even if they are new to the game.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Shadowseeker]

Hm..a short reply to Burns..and a few suggestions.

Actually, no I'm not hoarding the items as RP needed, those that are can even be given out sometimes.

If you wonder which I mean: The Cross (obvious) and my silvery sphere. The sealed bottle has a story similiar to the Sphere (I got it in october last year, before items were existing and got it made into an item then), but in this case I gave it away. It all depends on who asks and what for.

But I'd still like to be able to get more than 3, simply because I can create many, and use many sometimes. Right now there's a small rolechange, less fighting. that marks a new chapter, and perhaps even a new item.

The rest I have are just for trade, which I do as a hobby and for fun. I collect things, and I dare say I may have done more for the fluctuation of items, creatures and coins then perhaps even the auction, because so far the auction things are being hoarded.

How about Kragel, Udgard being able to destroy items, as in use it for the creation of another? Or reselling it, but not for overpriced values? The biggest problem with the auctioned things is, that they were gotten in exchange for voluntary help.

Then if you sell these items/creats/coins in exchange for something like that again, wouldn't that mean it's an endless cycle, feeding on itself? You'd need to give out some items, creats for non material things, for example work, to make things able to go on.


Edit: Oh, on a quick note: I wouldn't want to set a fixed value for coins. The value a coin has depends on the eye of the one who gets/sells it, and eve if we sell it it would be disregarded. Set such values for official things, but leave it out for the inoffical parts, since that wouldn't be used anways.

Edit2: My suggestion to prevent inflation is simple, make a fixed, official shop. Add a counter ingame to count the amount of coins ingame in total. Then, make people be able to get something for a certain percentage of the coins.

Example: We have 200 silver. 1% goes towards a service, like getting a full heal of all the stats: ve, vp, AP, and EP or so. When we have less than 100 coins in total, we only pay 1 coin instead of 2 coins. Similiar with gold coins, here I would suggest creatures:

Mur mentioned creature cycles, how about a shop where you can buy creatures out of the time of their cycle? Pay for it.

Then, once we have a deflation of coins, make it so you give you coins on a centralized basis. Make it for example by giving official quests, rather easy for silver and hard for gold, or make it that you can work to earn coins, or whatever, to balance the amount of coins. I'd suggest when factions are there that new people get 1 silver after they finished it, which should take some time.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Shadowseeker

[I am Bored]

a suggestion for the bronze to silver change rate could be 37 bronze to 1 silver ( i like random numbers )

Edited May 11, 2009 by I am Bored

[Kriskah Arcanu]

hmmm... I come to think 99% of the ideas posted are up to Mur consideration... Most of them out of my reach.

So I'll just keep doing what I've done so far on MD.

K