[quote name='Jester' date='28 February 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1267371945' post='55486']
"Discussion is not about 'winning, but about sharing toughts and learn what other people think about it, or to get a compromise between two parties." - Orlando Gardiner

An interesting viewpoint for a lawyer.
[/quote]
Discussions aren't about winning. However, legal cases aren't discussions. You yourself have just committed a logical fallacy by equating two things that aren't necessarily equal in an attempt to debase or undermine the position of one of your peers. Again, unwise.

[quote name='Malaikat Maut' date='01 March 2010 - 08:22 AM' timestamp='1267453361' post='55565']
Discussions aren't about winning. However, legal cases aren't discussions. You yourself have just committed a logical fallacy by equating two things that aren't necessarily equal in an attempt to debase or undermine the position of one of your peers. Again, unwise.
[/quote]

I do not claim to be wise I just claim that I can help people win. I haven't devalued I have simply pointed out something that may hurt our credibility. Regardless if this is the wise idea or not if somebody is to see this they will see this as a weakness which has been proven above by jester. Continuing this was posted in a fourm regarding debates. A court trial is simply a debate in general speech. Countering each other and refuting claims with evidence or devaluing a claim in order to reduce the sentence.
We council people on facts they can bring up and if somebody says something we give them some idea of how they can devalue a claim.

As always I understand where you are coming from but I cant only look at the fact of what I see and what I don't; I have to see what other people see and don't. You have to know where it comes from also has to be an area to look at.

[quote name='Kamisha' date='01 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1267456617' post='55571']
I do not claim to be wise
[/quote]
This is why I quoted Jester and not yourself. I understand your position as a private and independent citizen, however, Jester should display wisdom and temperance as the ruler of a land. While you don't claim to be wise, it is merely expected of Jester due to his position.

[quote name='Malaikat Maut' date='01 March 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1267457688' post='55572']
This is why I quoted Jester and not yourself. I understand your position as a private and independent citizen, however, Jester should display wisdom and temperance as the ruler of a land. While you don't claim to be wise, it is merely expected of Jester due to his position.
[/quote]

Forum = OOC. Am I ruler of the Forum? If so I'd ban you from here. Jester the character is a King, not me, so stop making pointless comments about it.


You keep going on and on about wisdom, and then you do one of the least wise things you can: insult the ruler of your land. Do you think before you talk, or are you just a hypocrite? (don't bother answering that)

Edited March 1, 201016 yr by Jester

Can we get back on topic please I already start enough indirect wars when I say something that is abstract. I don't need fights starting when I say something on topic.

[quote name='Kamisha' date='01 March 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1267404832' post='55525']
I understand that is the case though actual firms can only work as a team in my regulations when a case is taken and more than one person is approached with each side they actually are working then as two completely independent councilperson. They cant speak or consult each other until the verdict is approached and posted. Now lets say they where working together in order to fix the final verdict in favor of one person. This I cant have and I understand that now that you bring that up it has occurred to me thanks by the way. This reflects badly on me as currently being the spokes person as it seems now at least. I am required to defend that. This is why I am going to apply a new rule to the what ever you want to call it for now until we get a name. In the case that this happens I will first deal with it as a internal affair basically we reach a verdict within the (what ever it is) even I can be convicted with the villainy. We have three now so this works. The neutral councilor acts as the judge and the proceedings go similar to murs. In such a case that somebody is convicted or both are then the name or names will be posted publicly and to what case. The losing side at least I think the losing side can then sue that person for repertions for there loses. I will not be defending these people and if I am found of such I request not to be defended. Its just that so many people want to take part I want people to have an equal right to a lawyer no matter what the crime.
I will always post who we are representing so people if they feel turned off by such can contact a different party in this case of what I know of that is only Grido.




Saw it my self and I find it somewhat disturbing. I make neutral thoughts only in the case that im not representing anybody at least at the moment. To find a compromise I agree with but in court it is not compromise it is finding who is guilty. The only compromise is the sentence. Since you are half way there I do have to give you credit. You enter but as a consultant not a lawyer until you can show me you have straitened that kink out. You cant take cases but in the case that the evidence is against someone one of our lawyers can come to you if they are stuck to find a way to supply information to maybe reduce the sentence.

You can choose to take or leave it I hope you understand.
[/quote]


I have never seen court as a discussion group. What is there to be discuss about if someone stole or did not steal something? Evidence offcourse is the main priority, but also what the evidence do and do not prove. I still think that their should be neutrality, but that should be the outcome.

The guilty one will have to be punished, but more importantly is that he learns what his mistake was(in higher cases as thiefery) and accepts his fault. Court should not be for punishment mainly, but for justice, and to learn people the right ways, and keep them of of 'bad habits. The punishment should stay in order to three things:

keep the community from harm, if someone is a reported and repeted spammer their should be taken other actions than just temporary bans, the community should be helped against such people.

revenge and teaching, as the old saying, an eye for an eye. They should always have to lose more than their victims.(and victim's should not have to lose anything!)

and rehibatization: make people fit again to go back into the community, this is the most hard one. because someone will have to learn what they've mistaken and will have to learn otherwise.


In discussions, I'd rather lose and find the right ways than be headstrong. In court I wish to defend the rights of my client to the utters, (even if he is guilty). They mostly are not guilty of everything and their are mostly 'reasons,.

[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='04 March 2010 - 08:14 AM' timestamp='1267715670' post='55726']
I have never seen court as a discussion group. What is there to be discuss about if someone stole or did not steal something? Evidence offcourse is the main priority, but also what the evidence do and do not prove. I still think that their should be neutrality, but that should be the outcome.
[/quote]


I mostly agree with what you are saying. Let me quote my own post: "An interesting viewpoint for a lawyer." In my experience, lawyers are generally more interested in winning than the truth. However, if you do seek the truth, you will learn more as you go on, and be able to present a stronger case.

agreed Jester. The point of a client hiring you is in hopes that you will win the case in the way they are seeking. If they are guilty, you know they are guilty, they know they are guilty, but you can show the intent wasn't meant in a malicious way, then you can get them a less severe discipline. If that's the route they wish to take. Also, the point of those who would bring a case against someone, is as I stated before. Bringing up charges against someone, when those charges can't be proven, is a very big mistake. I think a lot of what will go on, if indeed more cases begin to arise, is that layouts will be made in an elegant fashion as to best prove ones point. Wether Defendant, or Plaintiff both seek to win their case. If people know they are guilty and the evidence i overwhelming, the only point of hiring a lawyer would be in hopes of a less severe punishment.

[quote name='phantasm' date='04 March 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1267733282' post='55745']
agreed Jester. The point of a client hiring you is in hopes that you will win the case in the way they are seeking. If they are guilty, you know they are guilty, they know they are guilty, but you can show the intent wasn't meant in a malicious way, then you can get them a less severe discipline. If that's the route they wish to take. Also, the point of those who would bring a case against someone, is as I stated before. Bringing up charges against someone, when those charges can't be proven, is a very big mistake. I think a lot of what will go on, if indeed more cases begin to arise, is that layouts will be made in an elegant fashion as to best prove ones point. Wether Defendant, or Plaintiff both seek to win their case. If people know they are guilty and the evidence i overwhelming, the only point of hiring a lawyer would be in hopes of a less severe punishment.
[/quote]

This is the exact point a made at the beginning of this topic.

Sry to double post but I must bring to the attention of the public immediately that all creature trade law cases be brought to one of our lawyers attention within at least 48 hours in order to increase our chances of success and a investigation if it is a creature trade. With this new implication it is paramount that we can run some investigation.

If calling us after this time our chances of completing your case successfully will drop significantly. If you want a representative or counciling that is once again within the 48 hours please though it is not necessary it greatly increases your chances.

Make sure to also retain the id of your creature before trading.

So, I have a question, What actually happens if i come to you because someone stole my creatures?

What do you do for me that i couldnt easily do myself

Basically what we do is find previous cases you can bring up that may help you reduce a sentence if you are being prosecuted as well as key words to use and weather you should attempt to fight it or simply try reason a bit more. In the case that you are going to look to prosecute somebody else you can come to one of us in order to look at what evidence you have and if we think you have sufficient proof in order to go through with it.

Our basic job is in order to help inexperienced people or people with little time get advice and important facts that they could attempt to use.

I think with creatures stealing stuf is mostly pretty obvious, people can handle that themself(mostly) and others we indeed help how to work with it, what to gather as information and how to bring it.


more interesting cases should be like wp quest rewardings to friends, fights between players and harassement and role play - 'sex,. those problems have no exact borders and are harder to get evidence, that's where help is most required.

[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='12 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1268410612' post='56268']
I think with creatures stealing stuf is mostly pretty obvious, people can handle that themself(mostly) and others we indeed help how to work with it, what to gather as information and how to bring it.


more interesting cases should be like wp quest rewardings to friends, fights between players and harassement and role play - 'sex,. those problems have no exact borders and are harder to get evidence, that's where help is most required.
[/quote]

I have to agree. Screen shots of such can be somewhat unpredictable though and somebody is really good with photo shop they can alter them undetectably. However lucky the background has some texture to it so you can actually see some imperfections if they choose to alter it and some other methods I have at my disposal which I will not publicly announce with good reason.

Though continuing on the creature theft thing there are some other things we can do.
chewett I think it is only fair that we use your armor

[b]Right, i have an obscenely old aramor that i am selling

It will be older than most of you guys

ID: 26892
Age as of Day 57: 831

If anyone is intrested in such an old creature, Send me a PM

Current Price: 8 Silver by Grido


NOTE: i am selling this FOR someone who doesnt have a forum account. [/b]

Interesting that you are selling it. Actually it would be unwise to discuss a probable case here ill send you a pm including details.

Disclaimer: Not saying grido is untrustworthy worthy just keeping the possibility open.

Edit: addition of disclaimer.

Edited March 12, 201016 yr by Kamisha

[quote name='Kamisha' date='12 March 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1268406999' post='56263']
Basically what we do is find previous cases you can bring up that may help you reduce a sentence if you are being prosecuted as well as key words to use and weather you should attempt to fight it or simply try reason a bit more. In the case that you are going to look to prosecute somebody else you can come to one of us in order to look at what evidence you have and if we think you have sufficient proof in order to go through with it.Our basic job is in order to help inexperienced people or people with little time get advice and important facts that they could attempt to use.
[/quote]

Mur has always said that everything varies from case to case (before he actually made a real court) So i dont see where looking for old cases and making a precident would be useful as Mur would evaluate each case as a new one (increaseing the punishment would be the most likely difference for recurring things). Unless the person doesnt know what to say when Mur asks them for a statement, then you might be useful, But how would you "go through with it" and prosecute someone else. How would you raise the problem to mur and such? Surely a problem worthy of Murs time would matter enough that it wouldnt need a certain person to bother him to do it?

[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='12 March 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1268410612' post='56268']
I think with creatures stealing stuf is mostly pretty obvious, people can handle that themself(mostly) and others we indeed help how to work with it, what to gather as information and how to bring it.more interesting cases should be like wp quest rewardings to friends, fights between players and harassement and role play - 'sex,. those problems have no exact borders and are harder to get evidence, that's where help is most required.
[/quote]

The issue i see here with you finding evidence, is that you would need to be informed of the issue, and then what would you do to collect evidence? Lets take an example then. Lets say that something thinks im being unbelievably mean to them ingame. What would you do to help them? im thinking that they would already have printscreens and such.

[quote name='Kamisha' date='12 March 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1268419039' post='56279']
I have to agree. Screen shots of such can be somewhat unpredictable though and somebody is really good with photo shop they can alter them undetectably. However lucky the background has some texture to it so you can actually see some imperfections if they choose to alter it and some other methods I have at my disposal which I will not publicly announce with good reason.Though continuing on the creature theft thing there are some other things we can do. chewett I think it is only fair that we use your armor [b]Right, i have an obscenely old aramor that i am sellingIt will be older than most of you guysID: 26892Age as of Day 57: 831If anyone is intrested in such an old creature, Send me a PMCurrent Price: 8 Silver by GridoNOTE: i am selling this FOR someone who doesnt have a forum account. [/b]Interesting that you are selling it. Actually it would be unwise to discuss a probable case here ill send you a pm including details.Disclaimer: Not saying grido is untrustworthy worthy just keeping the possibility open.Edit: addition of disclaimer.
[/quote]

So, ok lets assume grido didnt pay me for the aramor (forgetting i dont actually have it and i will transfere him to someone else if he wants it) What could you do, that i couldnt do?

[quote name='Chewett' date='12 March 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1268427221' post='56292']
Mur has always said that everything varies from case to case (before he actually made a real court) So i dont see where looking for old cases and making a precident would be useful as Mur would evaluate each case as a new one (increaseing the punishment would be the most likely difference for recurring things). Unless the person doesnt know what to say when Mur asks them for a statement, then you might be useful, But how would you "go through with it" and prosecute someone else. How would you raise the problem to mur and such? Surely a problem worthy of Murs time would matter enough that it wouldnt need a certain person to bother him to do it?[/quote]

Yes they do very from case to case I accept that but you can bring a previous case to attention because there is a break down of previous cases for example why Granos had a harder punishment was broken down and because it was the first case brought up it was increased. If mur has reason which im sure he does. The sentence if not the same person would have to be lower by no matter which way you look at it. Lets say I did the exact same a granos and stole a creature from jacoand and said the exact same thing to mur I should by all fairness and reason get the same sentence subtracting that special first case bonus surprise.



[quote name='Chewett' date='12 March 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1268427221' post='56292']The issue i see here with you finding evidence, is that you would need to be informed of the issue, and then what would you do to collect evidence? Lets take an example then. Lets say that something thinks im being unbelievably mean to them ingame. What would you do to help them? im thinking that they would already have printscreens and such.[/quote]

Ok with this I do understand where you are coming from it is obvious I would be at a loss here. I wasn't there or maybe I was I wouldn't know but gathering people that witnessed the event may be useful. Now the next thing you are going to comment on is the how each party has to be an even amount of people. That is only initial testimony. If mur is unsure now we have a back up those witnesses. Just as evidence can improve your case it can also break it down so some would be recommended to be withheld.



[quote name='Chewett' date='12 March 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1268427221' post='56292']So, ok lets assume grido didnt pay me for the aramor (forgetting i dont actually have it and i will transfere him to someone else if he wants it) What could you do, that i couldnt do?[/quote]

Ok yes you don't have it I noticed that though since you have possession of it and you are carrying out the trade you can be held 100% accountable by the person that traded it to you. Main point is if you have it you agreed to it your accountable any lawyer will tell you by agreeing to this you are the accountable party. Now what could I do that you couldn't that's a good question and I don't have to answer it for the simple point that I am a councilor since I am not allowed by murs rules to actually follow you into court I council not present.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now I welcome you to continue to attack this firm as much as you see fit but the reason I am so good in this position is simply that I love to argue and always expect to be challenged. I have had many years of practice and I am willing to defend this firm to the very end. I can promise you though as long as i'm still around I am not going to allow you to deconstruct this firm and believe it or not i'm actually having fun arguing this.

[quote]Ok yes you don't have it I noticed that though since you have possession of it and you are carrying out the trade you can be held 100% accountable by the person that traded it to you. Main point is if you have it you agreed to it your accountable any lawyer will tell you by agreeing to this you are the accountable party. Now what could I do that you couldn't that's a good question and I don't have to answer it for the simple point that I am a councilor since I am not allowed by murs rules to actually follow you into court I council not present.[/quote]

Nobody traded the Aramor to him, the person selling still has it, they dont have a forum account and so they asked Chewie to make a topic on behalf of them, since he isnt actually participating in the trade itself, i fail to see how he could be held accountable by anybodies standards.

Meh, even more:

A "lawyer" who fails to convince anyone that he can do something more than the person itself, wouldn't be hired. End. So I don't see the use in arguing over Kamisha too much, since I doubt he will even receive a case after all this babbling and no result.

Essentially Kamisha is trying to reach the position of the one who cannot lose in argumentations: Because he has no arguments at all, so you could declare nothing wrong. And the next thing he does is to refuse to reply to the arguments properly, and as such does never show any kind of weakness.

So, why bother? Ignore him and over. I don't think this works in a trial btw.

When Mur is like: Give me a reason why you did that, and you refuse to tell him...well yes. I will only feel pained for the wrong soul following you into court.

I am telling you what I can. For example the truth is I cant end up in your place that is in place by mur. I can only council read the f^#*ing post that mur has put there he describes what I can and can not do. Second off I wouldn't know if its traded to him for safe keeping or not it was unclear on who has hold of the creature because all he says is that he is running the auction for the creature in regard to somebody who doesn't have a fourm account. If I miss interpreted it that may be my problem. The reason that some of my arguments seem like simple babbling without construction is because the rules are not solidified untill a case takes place involving lawyers.

So this is my final stance before you judge me although you all seem determined to one goal. The points follow:
- I cant enter your court
- I cant take your place
- I cant change the verdict of a trial or appeal

- I can help you with making a statement prior
- I can help with evidence gathering within reason
- I can make a assumption as to weather you have a case or not.

Any lawyer who says they can do any more than this is in direct violation of both the criminal and civil code of law in MD. We are all bound by the same rules led out by mur. If I said I can do anything more than this in any response you have misinterpreted it. There is a list of independents edited into the first post I have made. You can question them.

It just is starting now to irritate me when people are simply targeting this firm. For example why is Grido, smartalekrj of anderson and anderson not being also targeted they have the same principles i'm the only one answering them and if that sounds like babble and gibberish I would like to see the other firms come up with a better answer. I am personally offended and appalled at this questioning format.

I will also finally point out that your accusations have no backing eathier. I have nothing to work with as this has not yet been put into practice. When I look at your accusations I don't see a question to the firm or the process or any of that all I am seeing is a personal attack directed to me.

Grido of all people here should know better in fact I question him and ask him to answer the following questions:
1)what can you do that I could do just as easily my self.
2)what kind of evidence gathering could you do
3)what kind of techniques would you implement in your case

I also challenge any other firms or individuals to answer these questions without breaking the rules of being a lawyer. I think I am entitled to offer some less than constructive criticism and I invite others to do the same. Also try to do this without lieing I tried to and did so successfully.

People use your topic because it's exactly not about 'your firm', but titled laws and lawyers, something rather general.

Imo, we don't need either, neither you nor anybody else, because lawyers are dependent on law, and law is not existant in MD.
Us stupid morons in the outside world need laws as substitue for morality, which all too many simply lack, so we have a clear way of telling the jackasses that whatever amorale deed they plan will be punished with so and so many years in prison, that much of a fine, and of course taking away and giving back whatever they earned by being a jackass.

In MD, we forgo the step of laws and instead have Murry judge us, not based upon any national, international, or MD laws, but based upon his moral values, and in case we ever get to see a real court, probably based upon the judgement of a jury, to which he'll probably call some persons who have morals themselves.
So, if we only have morality, and know that there are neither written laws (except for the game-rules, which get enforced by Grido and his LH-team with Mur's personal help in the cases where even Grido has no valid tools) nor precedences from higher instances due to lack of those, tell me, where do we need any lawyer?

In minor or clear rule-breaking issues, LHOs are Inquisition, we sue, judge and punish, within seconds at times, and in major, less clear and specially not-rule-breaking-yet-disturbing-the-game issues, Mur is the one and only judge so far, he is the law, he decides all cases, and he knows the other cases in MD better than any lawyer ever could.

Until that system changes, and instead of Mur a bunch of newbish 'judges' (not active vets who also know all cases) decides the fate of the accused, i don't think that there's any place for lawyers in MD.

[quote name='Kamisha' date='12 March 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1268431111' post='56293']
Yes they do very from case to case I accept that but you can bring a previous case to attention because there is a break down of previous cases for example why Granos had a harder punishment was broken down and because it was the first case brought up it was increased. If mur has reason which im sure he does. The sentence if not the same person would have to be lower by no matter which way you look at it. Lets say I did the exact same a granos and stole a creature from jacoand and said the exact same thing to mur I should by all fairness and reason get the same sentence subtracting that special first case bonus surprise. Ok with this I do understand where you are coming from it is obvious I would be at a loss here. I wasn't there or maybe I was I wouldn't know but gathering people that witnessed the event may be useful. Now the next thing you are going to comment on is the how each party has to be an even amount of people. That is only initial testimony. If mur is unsure now we have a back up those witnesses. Just as evidence can improve your case it can also break it down so some would be recommended to be withheld. Ok yes you don't have it I noticed that though since you have possession of it and you are carrying out the trade you can be held 100% accountable by the person that traded it to you. Main point is if you have it you agreed to it your accountable any lawyer will tell you by agreeing to this you are the accountable party. Now what could I do that you couldn't that's a good question and I don't have to answer it for the simple point that I am a councilor since I am not allowed by murs rules to actually follow you into court I council not present.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now I welcome you to continue to attack this firm as much as you see fit but the reason I am so good in this position is simply that I love to argue and always expect to be challenged. I have had many years of practice and I am willing to defend this firm to the very end. I can promise you though as long as i'm still around I am not going to allow you to deconstruct this firm and believe it or not i'm actually having fun arguing this.
[/quote]

The issue with cases is Mur decides, How are you going to present your info about the previous case to Mur? If you are going to do it in the persons statement about what happened, then all it sounds like is that you are telling Mur that he should reduce the punishment. Now from what iv seen, all telling Mur to do something makes it worse for you. And that would be contray to what you are working for.

And i disagree with you if you did the same, that you should get less beacuse Mur said so, I would think you should get more because you knew about the case, Yet you still did it. A little more punishment would lead to more people paying attention to rules.

Also, What do you think witnesses can do with a case such as the one we are talking to? Im not entirely sure but all they can say is "i saw X say something, and then he complained, and i saw nothing else" That isnt evidence since all CTC transfers are sent over pm or if you know each other, yim. evidence doesnt need to be found since mur can easily check the log and check what was said.

I see your role as helping someone who perhaps doesnt know how to structure his plea or something, But really anyone just needs to say what happened and that doesnt take someone else helping as well

[quote name='Kamisha' date='13 March 2010 - 05:33 AM' timestamp='1268458430' post='56313']
I am telling you what I can. For example the truth is I cant end up in your place that is in place by mur. I can only council read the f^#*ing post that mur has put there he describes what I can and can not do. Second off I wouldn't know if its traded to him for safe keeping or not it was unclear on who has hold of the creature because all he says is that he is running the auction for the creature in regard to somebody who doesn't have a fourm account. If I miss interpreted it that may be my problem. The reason that some of my arguments seem like simple babbling without construction is because the rules are not solidified untill a case takes place involving lawyers.So this is my final stance before you judge me although you all seem determined to one goal. The points follow:- I cant enter your court- I cant take your place- I cant change the verdict of a trial or appeal- I can help you with making a statement prior- I can help with evidence gathering within reason- I can make a assumption as to weather you have a case or not.Any lawyer who says they can do any more than this is in direct violation of both the criminal and civil code of law in MD. We are all bound by the same rules led out by mur. If I said I can do anything more than this in any response you have misinterpreted it. There is a list of independents edited into the first post I have made. You can question them.It just is starting now to irritate me when people are simply targeting this firm. For example why is Grido, smartalekrj of anderson and anderson not being also targeted they have the same principles i'm the only one answering them and if that sounds like babble and gibberish I would like to see the other firms come up with a better answer. I am personally offended and appalled at this questioning format.I will also finally point out that your accusations have no backing eathier. I have nothing to work with as this has not yet been put into practice. When I look at your accusations I don't see a question to the firm or the process or any of that all I am seeing is a personal attack directed to me. Grido of all people here should know better in fact I question him and ask him to answer the following questions:1)what can you do that I could do just as easily my self.2)what kind of evidence gathering could you do3)what kind of techniques would you implement in your caseI also challenge any other firms or individuals to answer these questions without breaking the rules of being a lawyer. I think I am entitled to offer some less than constructive criticism and I invite others to do the same. Also try to do this without lieing I tried to and did so successfully.
[/quote]

Calm down, You said you are having fun responding but it doesnt seem like that was true... I was only asking questions of you because you said you enjoyed it, But if you are "I am personally offended and appalled at this questioning format."

If you think this is a personal attack, Then you are sorely mistaken, I am merely asking some tough questions. If you wanted a personal attack i could point out how pointless your "association" is, how little you can actually do for people, and how i personally think you add a lot of red tape and lies to the entire proceedings. But i havent since i wanted to keep this nice so i could better understand your viewpoint. I welcome anyone to answer my questions for it seems that Kamisha has lost his patience. But if you cant deal with a few questions then im not entirely sure how you would deal with a case.

To End with i will use one of your lawyers words
[quote name='apophys' date='27 February 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1267300844' post='55422']
What are your credentials, [...] If you can't convince us, how are you going to convince a jury?
[/quote]

Ignoreing the fact that you cant do one of the major parts of a lawyers job, If you cant convince us you are useful and that we should use you, What's the point?

[quote name='Chewett' date='13 March 2010 - 03:23 AM' timestamp='1268472230' post='56322']
The issue with cases is Mur decides, How are you going to present your info about the previous case to Mur? If you are going to do it in the persons statement about what happened, then all it sounds like is that you are telling Mur that he should reduce the punishment. Now from what iv seen, all telling Mur to do something makes it worse for you. And that would be contray to what you are working for.

And i disagree with you if you did the same, that you should get less beacuse Mur said so, I would think you should get more because you knew about the case, Yet you still did it. A little more punishment would lead to more people paying attention to rules.

Also, What do you think witnesses can do with a case such as the one we are talking to? Im not entirely sure but all they can say is "i saw X say something, and then he complained, and i saw nothing else" That isnt evidence since all CTC transfers are sent over pm or if you know each other, yim. evidence doesnt need to be found since mur can easily check the log and check what was said.

I see your role as helping someone who perhaps doesnt know how to structure his plea or something, But really anyone just needs to say what happened and that doesnt take someone else helping as well



Calm down, You said you are having fun responding but it doesnt seem like that was true... I was only asking questions of you because you said you enjoyed it, But if you are "I am personally offended and appalled at this questioning format."

If you think this is a personal attack, Then you are sorely mistaken, I am merely asking some tough questions. If you wanted a personal attack i could point out how pointless your "association" is, how little you can actually do for people, and how i personally think you add a lot of red tape and lies to the entire proceedings. But i havent since i wanted to keep this nice so i could better understand your viewpoint. I welcome anyone to answer my questions for it seems that Kamisha has lost his patience. But if you cant deal with a few questions then im not entirely sure how you would deal with a case.

To End with i will use one of your lawyers words


Ignoreing the fact that you cant do one of the major parts of a lawyers job, If you cant convince us you are useful and that we should use you, What's the point?
[/quote]

Im fine with you asking qestions it is just when everybody gangs up on me and decides to tune out what I say I get pissed off I should have the right to make a response before people jump to conclusions.
Also for your comment on witnesses we do more than just creature transfers. personal harassment log entries and other things that come to court. The court is a place for all boarder line rule breaking, I think that is a point I have to make clear repetitively there is not only one type of case.

Then my final words yes I stand by those. I try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. They may be jumbled at times but I explained we are still in developmental stages I will know more by the next time we talk question. We are still developing.

I invite people to ask questions and publicly speak opinion though jumping to attack is not a constructive workings. I am building a foundation and I ask for constructive opinions not attacks.

Now reducing punishment I am getting to this. Everybody is entitled to a fair punishment by telling mur and listing restrictions this balances the system in order to give a reasonable punishment. Law is a balancing system not a complete punishment program.

Now in response to the other questions or rather statements:
For shadowseeker I say this. If I show weakness I would be accused for weakness instead of making statments that have no backing though some of them do. For example I will back this. When Canada built the louge and a person died on it they put up padding this was proof of it being to hard but if somebody else died they would be blamed for not doing anything. It works in they way you choose to look at anything 100% of the time.

Well, we'll see anyways. A lawyer you say: I wonder whether you will be needed.

That's just what i think, ever since Mur did say he will hold trials, it has been months already.

Nobody has posted one yet. The reason for no trials is due to the community not due to mur.