A little question! (regarding tools and people with the same IP)

[Deatznce0]

Hello there MD community!

I've got a little question but we need to establish a few facts first:[list]
[*]Me and my friend live in the same dorm (Sharing internet = same IP)
[*]He wants to provide a service; to distribute Heat Jars and the person to whom he gives the Jar to can donate as much as they want for his service (including nothing!)
[*]He does not have the means to escape GG so he has asked me to advertise for him instead (not only that but I have access to public logs which can spread the advertisement better)
[*]He does not pick up any jars until requested to by another
[*]All proceeds and trades are done via ITC
[/list]
Now from the announcements...
[quote=announcements]
[color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 1997 - [2011-08-23 04:43:50 - Stage 11][/color]
...You shouldn't sell the items but you can sell services related to them such as heat jar loading or whatever else.
[/quote]
...It seems allowed but "someone" has told me that it may constitute or be seen as an alt abuse. Other than the advertising and talking to the parties, I personally am not involved with any of the items at any time.

I am also happy to make each and every transaction public via the forum or whatever.

So my question is:
Would this be considered as an Alt abuse?

Thanks a bunch!

[Curiose]

I do not think it is considered alt abuse because as you said so yourself, you are the same person. You are not getting a cut of the money, just helping out your friend. But I would probably leave this question to someone else rather than me.

[Fyrd Argentus]

The automatics will kick in and prevent certain kinds of transfers, based on IP. Of course, a third friend at a different IP solves that....

It seems to me that this is a case where "alt abuse" would be flagged only by human intervention, and you SHOULD be given an opportunity to prove that you two are not alts (via human contact). You might even wish to document something in advance to the council so that you are permitted in advance.

Of course "should" and "will" have a lot of gray space between them.

Good luck - blaze that trail for us!

Edited October 9, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[Kyphis the Bard]

So long as you aren't actually the same person, its not alt abuse.

In this specific case, however:[list=1]
[*]You personally never hold any of the coins or items
[*]You are posting on PL's, an ability he doesn't have
[*]You are advertising in places he can't reach to advertise himself right now
[*]You are, most likely, sending PMs to people with the ITC's, and receiving ITC's for the coins on his behalf (which you send to him to use, so you never hold the coins)
[/list]

The first point basically, says no, this isn't alt abuse. However, if at any point you actually move the items yourself (jars/coins) expect people to question whether or not you actually are alts.

Points 2, 3, and 4, on the other hand, are where things get a bit more interesting.
All three points are something that is fine to do if you are not alts. There are very few rules against helping a friend. However, if you where alts, these would all constitute alt abuse as you would be useing one account to help another. Any form of communication from one account on behalf of another can be seen as alt abuse (although it is a very minor form).
That said, since it is such a minor form of abuse, you would most likely receive some sort of inquiry or investigation if it was deemed abuse (whether you know about it or not) and then a warning of some kind telling you to stop (so long as you don't have a history of alt abuse).

Basically, so long as you keep rough records of the transactions to prove that you never hold the coins or jars, you should be fine. Make sure your friend doesn't decide that he wants to give you a present of coins for the advertising work that you do for him though Might make people suspicious
(he can buy you credits if he wants to give you an in game present, just not items)

[b]Long answer short, no it shouldn't be.[/b]

Edited October 10, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[Shadowseeker]

The warning was made by me- I just wished to point out it may be seen as an abuse, and the fact that it's two different players might exist- just looking at the IP they will be seen as one.

And, shared tools do have a regulation on them, that the transfer via ITC should not be overly abused. I'm not sure what the punishment will be, but Mur warned people.

[Maebius]

Then again, if the automatic system flags them for Abuse, and Council needs to adjudicate a trade among these "alts", having an honest description of the situation here, (proactively before any trades start), I can see as being a good thing.
So, I'd guess it is not "alt abuse" in the general scheme of things, though the sytem itself may block certain trades automagically.

[Yrthilian]

Hmm this is being done on Golemus so why have you not spoken with me in regards this.
The items may be open to other to get at the mountain. But making a profit from it?

Also The fact it was not spoken with me the king of the land is an issue in its self.
All the above question could have been answered by myself easily.

Anything involving Golemus and its resources you need to speak with me or if you cant get me then Grido as my second in command.
If both of us are not around then Burn would be able to help you. between the 3 of us we have just about all time zones covered.

In regards the alt thing. The Alt system looks at account with the same IP if they are the same then as far as the system is cncerned you are the same player
it does not matter if you are 2 different people. I have that very same issue with Firs as we are 2 people but the system sees us as Alts because we are RL friends.
There for i cannot do much in the way of trading with him directly.

[Grido]

I echo Yrth's statement, and also ask the mystery person how they intend to "collect" the ITC's if they never leave Golemus? You need to be at an Item Collecting location, and if memory serves the majority of players can only access one such location, and that's not on Golemus.

[Deatznce0]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1318241079' post='93718']
Hmm this is being done on Golemus so why have you not spoken with me in regards this.
The items may be open to other to get at the mountain. But making a profit from it?

Also The fact it was not spoken with me the king of the land is an issue in its self.
All the above question could have been answered by myself easily.

Anything involving Golemus and its resources you need to speak with me or if you cant get me then Grido as my second in command.
If both of us are not around then Burn would be able to help you. between the 3 of us we have just about all time zones covered.

In regards the alt thing. The Alt system looks at account with the same IP if they are the same then as far as the system is cncerned you are the same player
it does not matter if you are 2 different people. I have that very same issue with Firs as we are 2 people but the system sees us as Alts because we are RL friends.
There for i cannot do much in the way of trading with him directly.
[/quote]

I have just read the announcement regarding this and indeed I should have! I apologise for this. (I usually have too little time to "play" with MD so I am usually unaware of these things, with that said however, I don't think I should be excused.)
With that being said, I'm fine with a punishment if it has offended you in some way?

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1318274150' post='93795']
I echo Yrth's statement, and also ask the mystery person how they intend to "collect" the ITC's if they never leave Golemus? You need to be at an Item Collecting location, and if memory serves the majority of players can only access one such location, and that's not on Golemus.
[/quote]

Honestly, I have no idea on how this works either, I've provided the ITC code (I've only done one trade previously) and it disappeared by the time I logged back in ! (Yes, I haven't had the time to research nor mess around with how items are supposed to work)



With that being said: I've messaged my case to the council for approval and I would like to ask Yrthilian himself for approval for this service.

<Deatznce0/Falsh's note>: That was my friend writing who wrote the message above, we also unfortunately share the same forum account as Chewett previously disallowed multiple forum accounts on the same IP (His forum one was purged). Seeing how Yrth and Firs share the same IP and they each have their own forum accounts are we allowed to each have our own forum account?

Edited October 11, 2011 by Deatznce0

[Chewett]

[quote name='Deatznce0' timestamp='1318285352' post='93815']
<Deatznce0/Falsh's note>: That was my friend writing who wrote the message above, we also unfortunately share the same forum account as Chewett previously disallowed multiple forum accounts on the same IP (His forum one was purged). Seeing how Yrth and Firs share the same IP and they each have their own forum accounts are we allowed to each have our own forum account?
[/quote]

You are being obtuse.

When i removed your accounts i stated quite clearly that you are only allowed one account per person. Not per IP. I have previously removed accounts who the owner has initially agreed it was their alts, and then when the other account is useful ingame, they claim that i removed accounts just because they shared an IP. I could not possibly know if you are indeed two different people if you did not tell me, therefore i said they were alts.

Iv seen a lot of people "claim" that they live with someone else, share the same IP and such just so that they (ab)use their alts.
If you are genuinely two players, thats perfectly fine and you should have stated that when i was talking to you about the removal of your accounts. Recreate the other account and send me a pm regarding the new account so i may add it to the allowed list.

you should NOT be sharing accounts, one account is treated as one person, if that account does something bad, both players get penalized.

As for the Firs/Yrth situation, i could name numerous other well known players that have had a similar IP at one time. The only difference between your and their case, their normal non shared IP outweighs their times when they have shared the same by one by several magnitudes.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Chewett

[Deatznce0]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1318316767' post='93839']

You are being obtuse.

When i removed your accounts i stated quite clearly that you are only allowed one account per person. Not per IP. I have previously removed accounts who the owner has initially agreed it was their alts, and then when the other account is useful ingame, they claim that i removed accounts just because they shared an IP. I could not possibly know if you are indeed two different people if you did not tell me, therefore i said they were alts.

Iv seen a lot of people "claim" that they live with someone else, share the same IP and such just so that they (ab)use their alts.
If you are genuinely two players, thats perfectly fine and you should have stated that when i was talking to you about the removal of your accounts. Recreate the other account and send me a pm regarding the new account so i may add it to the allowed list.

you should NOT be sharing accounts, one account is treated as one person, if that account does something bad, both players get penalized.

As for the Firs/Yrth situation, i could name numerous other well known players that have had a similar IP at one time. The only difference between your and their case, their normal non shared IP outweighs their times when they have shared the same by one by several magnitudes.
[/quote]

Being obtuse is good, it allows a clear path for the community to follow.

I was not aware of this (perhaps I have been away from the realm for much too long), I am only asking to clarify. In my opinion; it is better to ask questions then to later suffer the consequences.

Thank you Chewett and the MD community for all your answers and replies, I hope this has unshrouded some of the fog surrounding accounts of the same IP.