Ann. 3046 - [2014-06-20 21:14:19 - Stage 12]

[powle]

funny how noone tries to look at it from eon's or darkraptor's point of view. If you had to grind for say 5 years (just an example i got no idea how long these guys actually grinded) to get to where you are now would you really like it if some newbie would catch up with you in just a few months? If it took you 5 years to get there you would of course want the others to need just as much time to get to that level (and yes when they get there you'd again be at a higher level then them). in any game without a hard skill/level cap those that started first (and stayed active for years) will allway have an advantage compared to neew players. and if they don't then why would they keep playing? A newb reaching in a short time the point you spent years getting to devalues your effort greatly. most games without a level cap decide to make reaching the next level increasingly hard as you progress so that it at least seems to the new player that he's catching up (because he got from level 1 to level 100 while you got from level 500 to only 502 in the same time) but if the older player stays active he Will allways stay a step before you.

[Kyphis the Bard]

funny how noone tries to look at it from eon's or darkraptor's point of view.

Actually, people are actively seeming to look from their perspective as well.

 

For example, what I suggested - It doesn't reduce their lead at all, or impinge their ability to maintain that lead if they actually care about it. They can grow their stats just as fast as anyone else. My suggestion simply makes it so that older players can no longer grow their lead exponentially.

 

While older players can achieve by spending 1 credit what it takes a new player months to achieve seems a bit absurd.

With the ability to grow their stats exponentially limited, an older player would be able to maintain their lead at the exact degree they already have for as long as they stay as active as everyone else. But for so long as they don't work to maintain it the gap will close with no recourse so long as their rivals pursue them.

Same principle as the Active Veterans list. If you miss a day then everyone who doesn't creeps one step closer to overtaking you, and those ahead creep one step further away from you overtaking them. But so long as you don't miss a day, you won't ever drop down the list, and will remain as far ahead as you have always managed.

 

In other words, instead of being a system that favours those that HAVE been active, it becomes a system that favours those that REMAIN active.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Kyphis the Bard

[Sunfire]

i think cutting down the token bonus is actually a good idea

but only if indeed with the maxing of the permanent boost%

 

right now stats are at a level that's just maddening

it destroys everything that is combat

normally every ritual has a counter but right now stats beat everything...

 

yes, this lowering of bonus will slow down our capability of catching up with those grinders, but to me that is no problem (see above)

and it is only normal that those who have grinded in the past carry the benefits of it.

 

and yes, with every change some are at a disadvantage

just like when omelette training was removed, or max levels for mps, ...

these changes are made for in the long run

in the short run there will of course be imbalance, that's only natural

 

tokens still have a great advantage

the creats are still buffed so they get easyer wins

and they get still a bonus over non paying

okay not as much as before but does it really have to be that much?

is it fair for a paying member to get in the same duration as me to get 10 times as much?

if so then tcombat is indeed not a thing for a non paying member

(yes i know you can get tokened creats trough questing and trading, but all the time you"spend" on that you cannot grind and you are again at a disadvantage against the grinders)

 

im not a grinder, i dont see the point in it

i try to get the combatsystem and try to build decent rituals

yes i have some tokend creats whichive all bought (but not for saccing)

i think ive bought maybe 5 tokens in the shop

 

what do players like Eon or Darkraptor have to lose with this change? nothing, they probably couldnt care less if they gott 2000 or 200 they're still way above the rest and thus combat gives them nothing anymore (probably they dont even get a thrill from victory as with their stats that happens 90% of the time)

what do we have to lose? not getting closer to them

is that bad? 

imho it is not, those levels of stats are absurd and should not be reached for it breaks combat

i think an even combatfield is actually better for it will make combat interesting again for everyone

[powle]

well the best system is proven to be logaritmic scaling not linear (and certanly not exponential). the gap is actually getting smaller with time but as long as the ones before you stay active they stay ahead of you (even with the gap getting smaller with time).

as for paying to win - it is very hard to balance it. you want the payment to offer some advantage or else the paying players Will stop paying or even stop playing but if the reward is too high then the non paying players Will feel like the game is trying to force then to pay which actuallly makes them even less likely to start paying (which should be the main goal - to make as many players into paying players) and more likely to leave the game because it's "unfair". but what is the "just right" amount of advantage that the paying players should get? basically the only thing you can do is "trial and error" you just keep changing things untill you feel it's at least close to being balanced.

another thing most of you are forgetting is that nowadays (new) players can get A LOT more stats from fights than when the game started. back in 2008 when i first started to play 10k max VE was considered quite high while now even newbies have more than that. So now if you as a newbie manage to convince just one "old" player to set a ritual with high VE and no dmg you can gain more stats in one fight than people back in the day got in 50 fights.

[Jubaris]

 

I agree too with Rhaegar's suggestion to a certain degree. But by doing such things you just aren't taking into account stat rewards from fights, they would make win grinding much more juicer than heat/combo fighting, probably resulting in another GGG because it's super simple way of doing it. You then not only need to increase base value of sacc ratios but also increase stat reward from fights at same time.

 

Combo training is now very attractive, considering the ally timers dropped - perma balance is the best thing to do around now.

 

'Problem' those dropped ally times created with the favor of perma balance is that you are not looking for losses anymore, now you want to win 'em all. That sounds fun to me, challenges in defeating other players, being in alliance is more attractive (another plus), but it creates bad opportunities for unprepared fresh mp5s.

(solution - teach mp4s how to prepare themselves for surviving mp5. Make them train VE on mp4, and join combo trainings on mp5, win for everybody)

 

 

Tokens are a big problem in our combat system indeed, not that much because of their sac bonus, but because of their combat bonuses, like antifreeze (which Ary complained about recently rightfully), too overpowering.

Not to mention that they look ugly in combat :P Symbol of everything that is bad in our combat system.

 

Raw high stats can be countered so and so on their own, but what do you do against a creature that has a million stats in attack and defense, and a permanent anti-freeze? You can't steal its stats with a soulweaver enough to beat it, you can only beat it if you have a million of stats yourself. Too overpowering.

 

Decreasing tokens boost in saccing, other than probably not a good decision on its own, is a surprise, and it's a big hit to those that invested a lot of resources to stack up wins on those creatures. "Heads up" could have been given at least, although I suspect the announcement was made just to provoke this discussion.

 

My opinion in short:

Previous token sac boost was alright, problems are in certain overpowering tokens that should be removed/calmed, new various auras for creatures should be developed in the "Combat talk" thread (we're lacking in versatility of defensive auras/abilities as was mentioned there, I think).

[Menhir]

I would like to add something from my point of view.

From my point of view there is nothing like fairness in games, there will be always some point where someone feels less valuable because he/she had not enough time or money or or or … some of those examples are already mentioned in this topic.

What is the point of changing an older system – make it better, attract more new player or let the current ones be more motivated to play more or start again playing more.

So here is one suggestion (i don´t even think it`s the best possible).

Start from scratch with fighting stats – erase all to ZERO. (People would get angry for sure including myself)

Erase the stat bonus from tokens and leave them in the shop as visual bonus for crits only. (People would get angry again because the spend money fort hem, including myself)

Keep the permanent Stat bonus (e.g. Shield & Sword) in the shop.

Raise the stats of the colored & Rare creatures slightly.

Raise the possible stat gain from fighting.

You still will have a discussion in a year or so, that fighting is unfair, because grinders will be in lead even with this „change“ - they invested more time into raising their stats.

I played many different MMORPG`s and I never ever found a game where it was nonrelevant how much time you invested to reach your goal. But I saw one thing always happening. At one point mostly after a couple of years something changed in the game mechanics and there was no doubt that those who where disfavored by the changed left the game. It always ended badly as I can say today fort he whole game because there where so many other options out there where they leaving people found what they had before.

I would choose a rough fresh start as I mentioned above even if I would not be happy with it at all. The other option is none for me because with the current system I lost completely my motivation.

 

Now 2 more Suggestions.

 

Create two separate sections in the upper line oft he MD screen right next to Announcement.

 

Make them red cloror if unread same as Announcement.

 

One for „Upcoming important Decisions“.

 

People would see more easily if anything big is planned to change in the near feature. I have to admit that I don´t have that much time to read the forum everyday or even in some weeks, I guess I´m not the only one.

 

One for „Patches“ (weekly/monthly as it fits).

 

This would give every single one a very transparent and structured overview what changed in the past and might be in the future. People who had a break for some months could easily go through the patch section and make them selfs up to date without spending hours on the forum.

 

All the best to all of you.

 

Edit:

 

Something which came into my mind regarding the shop and the paying non paying players.

 

Please keep in mind that this is a first thought and nothing finished.

 

Paying players can continue to pay whatever they want to support MD as a maximum but a minimum of 4 $ each month if they don´t wish to vote to have access to MD.

 

All those who are not able or willing to pay real money can use the vote system to gain the needed minimum of 4$ per month. By voting you can achieve a maximum of  5,4 $ per month & with this there is enough room for those days in which you are not able to vote.

 

This idea is somehow a little force on each player to do something for MD to have access to the game, it still would be free. Every player could have an MD account on which the amount of $ would be counted. Lets say you vote 2 months each day. In this case you would have a plus of 2,8$ on the account for the 3rd month and so on. Real $ payed would count on this account too. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Menhir

[Chewett]

While the change has been reset (see: http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15512-the-truth/) this discussion should continue.

[Ary Endleg]

I played many different MMORPG`s and I never ever found a game where it was nonrelevant how much time you invested to reach your goal. But I saw one thing always happening. At one point mostly after a couple of years something changed in the game mechanics and there was no doubt that those who where disfavored by the changed left the game. It always ended badly as I can say today fort he whole game because there where so many other options out there where they leaving people found what they had before.

 

This is so true, one wrong decision and it all goes poof, you can't patch things as it seems fit, you need to analyze everything and do the right decision from first time. You can only patch up the broken game only so long, especially this type of game.

 

I like Menhir's last suggestion very much, it allows everybody to play, so everybody can try it. If people like it and want to stay they would have to pay, which would fund the game or if they can't pay they would need to do certain quota of voting which helps the game get more players. If I was game owner I would totally employ such concept and remove pay to win stuff from shop entirely because I wouldn't depend on it at all.

 

 

 

Combo training is now very attractive, considering the ally timers dropped - perma balance is the best thing to do around now.

 

'Problem' those dropped ally times created with the favor of perma balance is that you are not looking for losses anymore, now you want to win 'em all. That sounds fun to me, challenges in defeating other players, being in alliance is more attractive (another plus), but it creates bad opportunities for unprepared fresh mp5s.

(solution - teach mp4s how to prepare themselves for surviving mp5. Make them train VE on mp4, and join combo trainings on mp5, win for everybody)

 

 

Tokens are a big problem in our combat system indeed, not that much because of their sac bonus, but because of their combat bonuses, like antifreeze (which Ary complained about recently rightfully), too overpowering.

Not to mention that they look ugly in combat :P Symbol of everything that is bad in our combat system.

 

Raw high stats can be countered so and so on their own, but what do you do against a creature that has a million stats in attack and defense, and a permanent anti-freeze? You can't steal its stats with a soulweaver enough to beat it, you can only beat it if you have a million of stats yourself. Too overpowering.

 

Decreasing tokens boost in saccing, other than probably not a good decision on its own, is a surprise, and it's a big hit to those that invested a lot of resources to stack up wins on those creatures. "Heads up" could have been given at least, although I suspect the announcement was made just to provoke this discussion.

 

My opinion in short:

Previous token sac boost was alright, problems are in certain overpowering tokens that should be removed/calmed, new various auras for creatures should be developed in the "Combat talk" thread (we're lacking in versatility of defensive auras/abilities as was mentioned there, I think).

 

Well you got some things wrong :D

 

First off turns out that antifreeze isn't OP as it seemed, read my latest post in that topic :p but yes some tokens give very significant bonuses for grinders inside combat. This is further linked to the way grinding is at it's highest, in short combo training isn't as juicy as you think. The way top grinders grind in GOE, yep that's the juicy. (I won't detail it :p but certain setups play important role in it and quite a few materials for maximizing it come from premium branch) I'm glad you mentioned permanent balance, I despise such thing highly (I believe I wrote about it in "Combat Talk"?), but this is not the place to talk about it. Actually SW could work sometimes.... well it's again matter for another talk :p anyway I like advertisement of my topic :))

 

As I said many times already, token change is good towards making system more fair, but it's a part of greater chain, you need to readjust everything related to it, everything must be taken into account if you tinker with just one part you won't achieve wanted effect and you will piss off many people in process. As far as I know MD lacks person who would deal with such things. Somebody who would be in charge of balancing the system "on paper", doing the quality work for such thing so that it can be implemented without pissing off the crowd.