Weaken Defense: Lower Limit

[Azthor]

Disclaimer: I have not, in any way or fashion, checked the veracity of the data below, it being taken directly from http://magicduel.inv...92-combat-talk/. Should you find any factual mistakes, inform me of such within this thread and this post will be edited accordingly. New suggestions, where pertinent to the topic, will likewise be added.

 

I - With Attack being more readily available than Power, it has been claimed that those support skills deriving from Power, such as Defend, Protect, Heal and Regenerate are hopeless to compete against the Attack based Weaken Defense. On these grounds, it was suggested that Weaken Defense be made unable to reduce an opponent creature's Defense below 0. 

 

II - Being able to bring Defense below the threshold of 0 is one of its primary strategic appeals, specially so at lower stat allotments. It would be just as doable to buff those abilities cited in I to be more competitive, if they are deemed to be comparatively underpowered. Alternatively, other solutions could be considered.

 

III - It has been indicated that Weaken's Defense current behavior was not originally intended. It has likewise been indicated that the present behavior, though unintended, derives from the restructuring of an original thus flawed that its current application would be undesirable.

 

IV - Many Target (All) rituals further benefit from Weaken Defense, but, as one such a point is inherently tied to another discussion, I'd rather those involved refrain from delving into this it for the moment, focusing on points I and II instead.

 

Index:

 

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15716-aurasbonuses-creature-boost-skill-drain-vitality-drain-freeze-antifreeze-tokens-availability-order-opportunity-value/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15721-target-all-creature-diversity-creature-upgrade-value/

Defend, Intoxicate, Martyrism & Protect: Availability, Opportunity Value & Targets

Heal & Regenerate: Opportunity Value, Targets & Upper Limit

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15734-rustgold-drachorns-reindrachs-wind-dragons-mutual-creature-boost/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15733-unit-limits-angiens-drachorns-archers/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15748-weaken-defense-lower-limit/

Honor & Negative Stats: Lower Limit

Honor & Balance: Intended Function & Current Application

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15763-reducing-the-power-of-freezes/

 

Discussion status: weak consensus.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Azthor

[Rophs]

Makes sense. If you have negative stats and attack at 100% it will act as if your stats are 0. (Negative stats and TS new meta? :D)

[Azthor]

That negative stats already commonly function as such has been pointed as a reason for Weaken Defense to not act as it does; I opted not to include it in the list after due consideration, however, for arguing Weaken Defense should not function as it does on that basis is an inherently weak argument - as its current function is not a bug, its current mechanisms are as intended as those that do not operate as such, and hence using those other mechanisms to dispute Weaken Defense's modus operandi is tentative at best.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Azthor

[Ary Endleg]

Or is it? Even though weaken defense putting opponent's defense into negative is not a bug, that doesn't mean it isn't design flaw.

[Azthor]

It may prove to be a design flaw by other accounts, such as those listed, indeed, but, isolated, the parallelism to negative stats is symmetry for the sake of symmetry. I will, however, add it to the list if others find it to be a compelling argument nevertheless.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Azthor

[Rophs]

Elementals or creatures that do "weaken defence" are inefficient against weak players as most creatures just have very low defence anyway, but against strong characters or upgraded creatures they are very good, cancelling lots of defence.

 

Under the current system Weaken Defence is just as efficient against weak players as it is against strong players. This implies that weaken was originally intended to not lower below zero but instead was a bug gone feature.

[Ary Endleg]

VERY nice find Rophs, please add reference of where you found it. :)

[Burns]

He actually made it a clickable link, just follow it :P (and note that you need to be logged in to do so)

 

However, that 'Understanding the fighting system' page is more of a basic layout from 'back then', and at least in regards to weaken defence NOTHING works as Mur intended it, because it was so terribly flawed when big stats came into play. Rendril practically re-wrote the whole ability, and it's still pretty broken in some places.

[Ary Endleg]

Exactly as he said, "bug that became feature". Sadly that phrase applies to half of combat system and MD in general.

[Rophs]

[log=Partial Battle Log]

###### START ROUND "7" ######

Applying temporary effects for KansHazan, slot 1 :

weaken (round:2 weaken: defence=-30|from -345 to -375; )

weaken (round:2 weaken: defence=-30|from -375 to -405; )

weaken (round:2 weaken: defence=-50|from -405 to -455; )

weaken (round:2 weaken: defence=-50|from -455 to -505; )

Ciphla's Dark Archer does damage to weak creature(s) ofKansHazan and:

    - Barren Soul receives 555 damage

creature DIES!

Ciphla's Dark Archer cant find any enemy creatures to target, skipping turn

[/log]

Elementals or creatures that do "weaken defence" are inefficient against weak players as most creatures just have very low defence anyway, but against strong characters or upgraded creatures they are very good, cancelling lots of defence.

When the quote was written (presumably by Mur) I assume that he intended for stats to never be below 0 in a fight. This assumption is further backed up by stats appearing as zero if you influence with negative stats. 

 

 

Under the current system Weaken Defence is just as efficient against weak players as it is against strong players. This implies that weaken was originally intended to not lower below zero but instead was a bug gone feature.

 

Let's have weaken not lower def below zero.

[Azthor]

Rophs' input is a good reference for what was intended, whereas Burns' would indicate that pursuing to restore the feature to what was intended may be a moot attempt - double so if we refer to what was intended during what was a development stage for the abilities themselves.

 

In hindsight, I do recall heretic archers having an easier time stacking weaken defense when I first started playing than they do now, though I had dismissed it as inattention. More specifically, though I may be mistaken, I believe weaken defense acted more akin to damage to the opponent creature's defense, going well into the negatives, and remaining indefinitely, without the need for it to be reapplied during combat.

 

There is something of a consensus here, though I believe it exists only through the lack of additional input. Those points listed in favor of weaken defense's current function were added by me so that there was room for discussion - no third party had suggested it in the original thread.

 

Here, again, I would like to urge forth participation from those players who have yet to voice themselves - and, among those that have already voiced themselves indirectly, request Burns' own opinion on the matter.

 

In tandem, I will pose the following as an open inquiry: does anyone know what has become of http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/13089-combat-bug-or-newbies-lack-of-knowledge/, if it would affect the present discussion to any extent, without incurring into unsanctioned spoilers?

 

All opening posts have been updated.