Reporting of Violations of Treaty between GG and Loreroot

[Isaki]

Dear fellow Members of the GG Alliance,
As known to all members of GG Alliance, there is a binding Treaty of Knowledge Sharing and Non Aggression between the Guerrilla Golemicarum and the Guardians of the Root (The Alliance of the land of Loreroot), the text of which I copy here *as is* for everyone’s convenience and ease of reference:

[b]Guerrilla Golemicarum and Guardians of the Root
Treaty of Knowledge Sharing and Non Aggression

This is a treat of knowledge sharing and Non Aggression, The purpose of this is to outline the terms to be agreed between the alliance of Guerrilla Golemicarum and the alliance of Guardian of the Root.

The terms of the Treaty is for both alliances to share knowledge in the art’s of magic and lore in order to help increase the skills and abilities of both alliances this could be done by having both alliances could meet on a
regular basis and shear their knowledge in this area. This would also cover both alliances working together to share knowledge on the Shades currently considered a possible threat to all alliances.

The Terms of non aggression would cover both alliances not attacking each other unless the alliance members involved have given permission. This could be done under the same terms of the Dojo at the Marble Dale Park. This could also give alliance members the chance to learn new tactics and understand the fighting system better
by discussing the fight afterwards.

It is the hope of having both alliances working together that may help to attract new members and hence help to repopulate Loreroot and Golemus. Having both alliances working on skill training and knowledge sharing this could make both realms powerful enough to defend their territory.

PUNISHMENT IF TREATY IS BROKEN

3 steps

First: one warning
Second: a penalty (This will be done by Wodin)
Third: kicked out of the alliance

Guerrilla Golemicarum
Yrthilian
Techno Mage

Guardian of the Root
NelyaSetesh
Loreroot Nymph[/b]

At this point, I would like to remind to everyone and our new members especially, that said respect is not a matter of individual good will or granting of personal favours among the members of the two alliances; on the contrary, it is absolutely mandatory as the three punishment steps (Warning, Penalty and Expulsion) indicate. Unfortunately, despite the binding effect of said Treaty, several violations have taken place, some of them due to ignorance of either the existence or the importance thereof, and some of them sadly due to conscious disrespect toward both the Treaty and the honoured purposes it seeks to serve. Therefore, the need emerges for several new measures to assure that the Treaty is met with the respect it deserves.

One of these measures is the present topic, through which we aim to remind/inform our older and newer members of the mandatory effect of the Treaty. Furthermore, I would like to urge all of our members to use this topic to report each and every violation of the Treaty, including the name, date and location the violation took place, along with solid proof of said violation (solid proof being considered the screenshot of your battle log in which the name of the violator must be visible). Finally, I kindly ask all our members to respectfully honour the GG Alliance by honouring the Treaty, thus contributing in practice to its solid reinforcement.

Lady Isolda

Foreign Relations Commander of the Guerrilla Golemicarum Alliance

[Raven]

Most have already been told but I still have something to add from my side.

By breaking the treaty as it is I think every individual brings disgrace to the alliance in which he is in. I can understand if someone has kind of silent treaty that he can be attacked with some members of alliance but that doesn't mean you can start attacking everyone else.

I personally will make sure that treaty shall be respected and will talk to player that violated it no matter in which alliance he is in. Any violation can be posted here on forum or sent to me. Tho I cannot help if I am not talked to....

Make sure that you also have a screen capture of a fight if something like this occurs.

[MRWander]

just for clarification are the MR frat and savelites included there seems to be confusion for some about this.

[Raven]

[quote name='MRWander' post='23509' date='Jan 9 2009, 07:33 PM']just for clarification are the MR frat and savelites included there seems to be confusion for some about this.[/quote]

Some say yes others no... So it would be good to see what MRD has to say....

[MRWander]

:good: i ll ask when i see him next and post the response.

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='MRWander' post='23509' date='Jan 9 2009, 02:33 PM']just for clarification are the MR frat and savelites included there seems to be confusion for some about this.[/quote]
My personal feeling is that they should be. Yrthilian is the leader of Golemus Golemicarum, not just Guerrilla Golemicarum, and the Savelites (and the yet-to-be-recognised) Children of the Eclipse are guilds of the Guardians of the Root. As a member of the High Council of Loreroot, I have taken pains to observe this treaty even though I have no badge and am not "officially" bound by it - I am technically bound by it, and that is all that matters to me.

[dst]

Yes! Break the treaty, start the war, let the chaos begin!!! Raaaaawr!

[Grido]

dst....no, just no lol

as a member of Guerrilla Golemicarum, and Yrth's second on the island, i will always abide by this treaty, i also feel that the regions should hold the treaty, though that should be decided and clarified by each of the other alliance leaders as to whether they'll be held by the treaty

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='dst' post='23524' date='Jan 9 2009, 07:42 PM']Yes! Break the treaty, start the war, let the chaos begin!!! Raaaaawr![/quote]
Growling is frowned upon.

[Yrthilian]

Great to see such a good responce to this.

The treaty does only apply to GG alaince and LR alaince.
I would like to see other alainces included in this.

As egards the MR's this treaty does not specificaly cover them
but MRD and my self have spoken of this before. We have agreed
that the MR's are to be treated as if they are GG alaince and vice versa.

Regarding the Savelites. I have spoken with Savel and we agreed on a similar treaty
but attackng is allowed while other are idel.

I would like better and clearer terms defined and as Lady Isolda already know
this is now her area to work on it. So if you are looking to have a treaty with the
GG alaince please go speak with Lady Isolda.

[MRWander]

I have spoken to MRD about this and he says we the MR Fraternity are NOT included in this treaty.

[MRD]

I attempted to make a treaty with Nelya long long ago. I was basically blown off so i decided i did not want to pursue it further. We went through basic negotiations and eventually she ever read my mails and i gave up. As far as me and the MR's are concerned, there are NO treaties and we shouldnt have to be the ones ALWAYS going to the other alliances. And to clear it up, we are a ALLIANCE not a guild, guilds are the non fighting groups, we are a 50 seat ALLIANCE. We have been here a long time now and no other alliances/guilds have come to me for a treaty and at this point i feel it is too late. Personally, asking to attack first, is BS. If they sit outside their homeland they should be ready to fight, and thats how it is in my mind. This game is too stale now and this is only making it worse. Humans by nature have different opinions and this causes fights. Its a way of life. Thats all i have to say

[Glaistig]

I don't know. What's the point of this? Why not espouse friendly competition? Do you actually think players in the treaty will bother dueling with each other now, when you have to get past the inconvenience of asking? Maybe a few, or some, but you might as well become one huge conglomerate alliance with little subsets. Actually, that makes sense.

But I suppose MD has been shifting to more "polite" tendencies, anyway; the dojo has set a tradition of premeditated dueling. It takes out some fun, but oh well. It is what it is, a shift.

[dst]

I am against the dojo (at least for mp5) and I am against of "polite asking". Why? I think you all know why so it would be useless to start writing my reasons.
So...if you do not want to ask politely just go to another alliance. Also if you don't want to be attacked in the dojo(I am refering to mp5) just hide or put a nice def. I will always attack the mp5s in the dojo and never ask someone if I am allowed to attack that person. And I think there are more who will do the same (if they aren't doing it already). We have creatures, we have ve, we have the attack button...so why should we not attack? Just to be polite? I am: I drink tee raising my pinky, I say thank you and I don't blow my nose in public. I think I am mannered enough.

[meru chi]

As a member of both the Savelites and Children of the Eclipse I fully support the efforts of this treaty. It is my intention and duty to seek out Savelfuser to finalize and negotiate fully the terms of this treaty in relation to the Savelites.

It is also my pleasure and duty to work with Lady Isolda on this treaty on the behalf of CoE.

I fully support this treaty and seek to instill and enforce it's policies and to see through that it's goals are realized.


Meru Chi

[SoulTear]

I have to agree with Glaistig, MRD and dst (seems like we are always butting heads but I guess the occasional agreement does happen) on this. This sort of thing will turn the entire world into a kind of dojo for what? 5 alliances (GotR, CoE, CoS, GG and even the MRs if it includes them too) and really ruin the fun (for me at least) in fighting.

I have played a number of MMOGs in the past and there are plenty where a Non-Aggression Pact makes sense for the parties involved but MD is not one of them. In all those other games there are always NPC type monsters for people to fight when there is no other player willing to or online but not so in MD where PvP is really all there is and the main point of the game other then roleplaying. Having to ask permission is a real inconnivance since time matters in this game and the other player may be AFK. It will also cause a build up of “can I attack you” spam in the chat or in personal messages.

Personally I have no problems with people attacking me without ‘permission’ ever (which unfortunately for an MP6 protector is all too rare). If I win I get Xp, skills and wins for my creatures and if I lose then that’s good too since I get a loss which allows me to get more honour later on or even if I lose Xp that is good because of the dreaded cap so I don’t understand what the big deal is. I suppose there is the benefit of being able to set up rituals without being attacked but you can use the dojo for that and preparing adequate defences fast enough is or I should say was part of the challenge (or at least a dummy defence like most do now).

So I purpose an amendment to the treaty which I also just posted on the Loreroot forum in the Diplomacy section:
I purpose that the treaty be amended with the provision that by default you can attack the members of the other alliance without permission unless they explicitly say they don’t want you to.

Like I said above I personally don’t mind being attacked without permission for those that can that is and I don't see why I should just assume that others do.

While I would rather we not have this kind of treaty at all I would be satisfied with this provision and I think that it is reasonable since if you attack someone and they don’t mind it so they don’t report it and the treaty is circumvented anyway. If this provision doesn’t get through I’m afraid I will have to leave the Guardians of the Root (or at least ignore it until NelyaSetesh kicks me) and either remain independent or join a less restrictive alliance.

I do miss the old days when there was risk and therefore thrill in the combat system but I already talked about that in my Valkyries of Violence thread. I can deal with the dojo since I just don’t fight there (and only go there to heal other players) but this kind of thing is just too much for me. As I say in my character description I prefer to remain silent for the most part.

Paraphrasing Manu about alliances from about a year ago (in some ways what is happening now with all the LR and GG alliances is the same thing that happened with all the LR and MB ones back then with everyone getting all buddy, buddy and joining the same alliance):
We can still be friends even if we fight against each other

[Udgard]

Oh well, I guess I'll put some words on this, since the I somehow pushed for the original treaty to be made.
When the Guerilla Golemicarum and the Guardians of the Root were formed on the first time, the purpose of creation was to fight the shades (GG) and to be a defensive force ready to defend the land, especially Loreroot (GotR). As some of the old players might have read on Nelya's old personal page, the GotR was conceived as Guerilla Golemicarum's ally. At that time, the atmosphere of war was very intense, and seeing that we were allies, I did not want to engage in combat with the members of GG (with the war atmosphere at that time, offensive actions between allies doesn't actually reinforce the "we are allies' feel.) Personally, I repeatedly asked in alliance chat on the combat status with our ally, the GG because I think that allies shouldn't fight each other in times of war(I got several attacks from Froo, Shadowice at that time). Thankfully, the leaders had an applaudable sense of initiative, and after only a week or so, Nelya and Wodin had officialized the treaty not to atk each other.

Then, the times changed. The Shades Ballance war ended, many of the old GG members as well as GotR members retired, and a new feel was brought into alliance life. With the war atmosphere gone, combat between alliance members is no longer considered such a harsh thing to do, and many of the new members didin't even know that there were a treaty. Still, since the Guerillas and the GotR is still allies, and some of the members still honored the old treaty, the treaty was revitalized ( well, actually, it was revitalized(with the written treaty you see at the 1st post) shortly before the war ended, but still, at that time, the war had developed into a stalemate, and the hostility was far less intense than it was before), and you still see it in effect even now. Actually, as the war started to end, many alliances start to enter treaties, as you might see in the AL that there was going to be a treaty between the Sentinels and the other alliances.
At a time of peace right now, though, some details need to be clarified. I get a lot of atks from GG members at the Willow's Shop, and since I was actually looking for losses anyways, I didn't mind it. And after all, a large percentage of people who go to willow's are looking for fights. Still, this point needs to be clarified to prevent confusion. Another thing is the dojo, where the current rule states that idle players may be atked freely. Does this make attacks to idle GG/Loreroot members legal or not?

Seeing the current context of situation, there might be a need for talks to determine if certain changes to the rules needs to be made. HOw does the current members feel about the terms? Do they feel that asking permission before atking is too troublesome right now? Or do they think that the terms are still to the best interest for both parties' growth? When everyone, old and new, reaches a consensus on what is best, I think the problems with treaty violations will disappear by itself.

[awiiya]

I am a Sentinel, and I have many friends in many alliances. Furthermore, I do not refrain from attacking any of them, and I have even made friends from attacking people in other alliances.

I do not believe we need treaties, in fact, I would even say we would benefit from the disappearance of all treaties. Why is there not a poll that asks this question to the Alliances?

Awi

[cryxus]

I am glad i for one am in the MRs and we arent participating...besides i dont think the treaty really solves anything because there isnt any ~real~ tension between the alliances, and if there were i still wouldnt want to be part of one that was in a treaty...the whole thing seems kinda pointless to me, i wanna be able to train however i see fit and if i wanna ask someone for wins, i'd just go to the dojo

~Cryxus

[SageWoman]

[quote name='cryxus' post='23695' date='Jan 12 2009, 02:25 PM']I am glad i for one am in the MRs and we arent participating...besides i dont think the treaty really solves anything because there isnt any ~real~ tension between the alliances, and if there were i still wouldnt want to be part of one that was in a treaty...the whole thing seems kinda pointless to me, i wanna be able to train however i see fit and if i wanna ask someone for wins, i'd just go to the dojo

~Cryxus[/quote]

I have to agree with Cryxus. The whole point of the battle button IS to fight with other players. While I do not mind being polite and asking (I do so with players I respect) for battle. It is hard to remember sometimes of who not to attack. I know Lucius Tarquinus and Priestess Aia and SilverHearts are Children of the Eclipse but with out an Alliance Badge, its hard not knowing who is/isn't. I dislike having to go to the Forum to check.

Furthermore, I see no "sharing" amoung the treaty participants. The treaty has become just a piece of paper and a hindrance to what MagicDuel is about. To Battle Beatles!

SageWoman

[Joseph]

Personally I think the negative response to this is more due to the nature of requesting attacks that has now started to happen, which annoys many players, rather than about treaties themselves.

I support Udgard in this matter, especially given the historical background he places behind it. Having things like treaties and negotiations is a very clever way to make the 'role-play' politics of MD more realistic in my opinion.

Start making things like treaties and you start really seeing how the alliances work and whether they are cohesive or not.

There are so many untapped possibilities here, I wish I could see them being exploited in game instead of reading fluff on the forum about "I dont like treaties". If you dont like treaties...then tell your alliance leader, if you dont like your alliance leader, then create a mutany, start a war, rebel. Do something.

[Glaistig]

Fluff? Forums are for expressing opinions, hey? Aren't you just posting "I like the treaty" fluff, then? If people's dislike of the treaty isn't so much that they take initiative ingame, and just contribute their thoughts of the development on the forums, that's that. It may not be as extreme as active opposition, but it is a form of protest and resistance. Don't demean expression and debate so airily, kid. You don't need to read and participate if you don't want to.

As for the value of treaties in roleplay, you're only partially right. You complained that the people protesting weren't protesting the treaty itself, but rather the new trend of asking permission to attack. But isn't it the same?

The treaty is supposed to create a sense of cooperation by letting the parties involved be excluded from the subjection of something negative, in this case attacks without requests. But this only works for people who do think of dueling in general as negative, those who do feel that asking for permission is something that should be expected. What with the dojo and onset of people who insist on bringing real life concepts into the MD world, that's a growing number of players. That's why I called it a shift.

But of course, there are still some people who feel dueling [i]not[/i] something that should be obstructed by such things as asking for permission. The point of this treaty for those people are null. It creates no sense of community, just oppression. Does the treaty illustrate how well alliances can work together if not all the players value the sentiment behind the treaty? It illustrates better the changes in the MD community and ideology. Politics in the larger scheme.

If you want a treaty that will really strengthen the bond between the two alliances, you have to come up with something that works for almost everyone.. so far, it seems there is still a significant faction of the MD society that has yet to accept this specific shift.

[Burns]

I'd not only say that fighting is not a negative thing, i'd even go as far as claiming that duelling and roleplaying are completely unlinked at this point in time.
There may have been a time, long ago, when roleplaying and fighting were deeply bound together, like GGs who kill Necros and vice-versa, and Lores who don't attack if they are not attacked, but imo, that time has long since faded.
Today, we roleplay, chat and have fun at willows, and still attack anything alive there... it's even common to attack exactly the person you are talking to, and i like it that way =)
Of course there are other places for RPing where fighting is prohibited, like windy's pub in the sanctuary, where those who are down and don't need more losses gather to have some fun time, too, but i have to give in that that's just not my world in there... strange things are going on there :/

There is no real link between RP and duels in my eyes, not even when people have a dicussion and the argument gets to a point at which a old-fashioned fist-fight has to take place, people rather do it like *punches on xxx's nose* *stumbles, wipes the blood away and deals a kidney-punch to yyy* *bends over, but recovers after a few moments and goes straight for xxx's stomach* instead of really dueling each other...
I have to give in that i neither like nor understand the meaning of that treaty anymore, but i still decide to rather leave the poor little Lores alone and only attack those who think on the same lines as i do, which are mostly the stronger players like Raven and Shadow^^

But, on the other hand, i have chosen to mainly fight at willow's and leave the other players alone... the best combat partners are at willow's anyway =D

[Metal Bunny]

I myself am against the treaty and frequently attack other lorerootians. But I told earlier ingame why.

[Shadow(mcvities)]

I feel that in some cases the treatys are good yet in others we should get a say.Not just the high ranked people. :nea: