Creature Tokens

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I have made this topic for those who wish to talk about Tokens. Discuss what you have found out, and any information you can divulge to help those choose which tokens best belong with what creatures...

[Udgard]

'distributed randomly among your craetures'
D'uh... I don't want my precious credits to go towards my for-collection onyl creatures >.<

[Lifeline]

[quote name='Udgard' post='29438' date='Apr 26 2009, 06:59 AM']'distributed randomly among your craetures'
D'uh... I don't want my precious credits to go towards my for-collection onyl creatures >.<[/quote]

yeah same here i even still have an aramor assassin and a hallow warrior just to have at least each crit once. getting a token on those guys would be a total waste.
a random distribution just encourages players to sacrifice everything they dont need until only a bunch of crits are left. and then u can still get a token on a santa -.- if u keep it since its a limited collectible crit

[Nex]

absolutely seconded. it should be a strategic decision, not based on good or bad luck. having the extra token chances is enough randomness.

also, a few questions for understanding:
[quote]Blood Drop Tokens are effective only under certain principles combinations and give between 10 and 25% bonus...[/quote]
if you happen to not have this special combination of principles, would it make the token useless or just set you to 10% bonus without special effects instead of 25% + possible effects?
while the idea to involve principles is really great, this would make certain combinations superior to others, which is not a good thing in my opinion. while of course manu had a certain image of them when creating principles, they are not something static, but undergo an evolution based on personal experience. telling me my interpretation/combination is not eligible for something without knowing my reason behind it defies the personal dimension of principle choices and may lead to static "principles builds" for maximized effect. but then, i ask because i dont know what was meant, so my concerns are hopefully unjustified.

[quote]....depending on token level[/quote]
is token level set by principle combination or are multiple tokens of the same kind stacked to add up their level?

[quote]Blackdiamond tokens activate at every 29th birthday of your creature giving a great boost.[/quote]
does this mean counting from the day you got the token, for each 29 days cycle (i.e. got it at age 28, next day bonus) or total age? are boni given only for future 29 day cycles or retroactive?

[edit: since the possibility that receiving tokens for sacrificing maxed creatures could get implemented (which is a nice idea and could further encourage maxing creatures and not just sacing them at best exp/time effeciency) was mentioned in the announcement... what about sacrificing a creature with token? would that token be randomly distributed to another creature in the collection (or better, would the player be able to redistribute it) or would it simply be lost?]

Edited April 26, 2009 by Nex

[Braiton]

I think making it random is a good idea. If we could choose what creature we put the tokens on, anyone with enough cash would have way overpowered creatures. Imagine an mp3 with a grasan with over 20 tokens.

Unless there was a limit like 5 tokens per creature.

[stormrunner]

random is a good thing for the reason Braiton stated and about them over I have this to say :clapping: :clapping: :drinks:

[Shadowseeker]

Still, if you ask me that is the most annoying feature. You could plan a lot better and trade it, if you had something like a token bag, like the inventory.

Then you assign them, let's say a maximum of 3 tokens per creat, (more would make it impossibly strong I think) and even enable trading between players. The way it is, you might end up getting tokens you do not need at all.

[Nex]

@ braiton: normally i would agree with that logic, if it was not for this simple fact:
it is annoying to players with many creatures since they can't plan properly and it does in no way prevent mp3 to get what you said it was meant to prevent.

let me give an example:
basic tokens need 40k exp to be aquired, that happens to be the exact amount [spoiler]needed to max a grasan[/spoiler]. to stay with your example: if i wanted my mp3 grasan boosted to ridiciulous strenght (if tokens really can do that), i would get one, sac everything else (which for a new mp3 is just an aramor to get through tutorial), max it and get the tokens i want for it. QED
(you could of course increase the requirements to get tokens, but i dont think thats the way to go)

@ shadowseeker: i like the idea to have any real strategic use i want a certain token on a certain creature and another token on another creature. the token bag you suggested is not only a way to handle this, but could also be used to get tokens back after sacrificing a creature with them.

[edit: @ braiton: another problem is that those with lots of credits could just buy more and more tokens until they got the desired result. those who rely on free credits via voting can't do that and are thus at another disadvantage if they get undesirable results.
i completely agree that the number of credits spend on tokens should not automaticly equal in supreme strenght, thus giving a strategic choice would mean that you are still competitive to those who slapped dozens of tokkens on their creatures, if your choice was well-thought and matches your way to play. to be fair, lets keep in mind that we (or at least i) have no idea about the actual strenght and impact of tokens yet, so this is still theory-crafting.]

Edited April 26, 2009 by Nex

[stormrunner]

on the free creds part, I am one of those I only have 18 or so creatures my chance of geting a desireable outcome is far higher then say some one who has say 50 creatures at a time, so if I spent my creds on token even if I only get a few my wasted tokens would be less then one who has many creatures

on the super grasan bit, most of the basic tokens need ether the right Principles, so newer players wouldn't be able to use these really in less they had a inside track, or are affected by the AGE of the creature, which doesn't even mean older players would get the most out of these in less they have old creatures to.

[Nex]

if more creature slots mean more of the same (i.e. 6 grasans instead of 1 or 2) the chances to get a grasan to get a certain token are not necessarily lower, but possibly higher. but thats beside my point. even if having less creature slots means wasting less tokens, i say: why should any of them be wasted?

[edit: i admitted that i dont know how, for example, the blood drop will work. if it does mean that simply having a specific combination of principles will grant a 25% boost to creature stats and possible special effects than that IS powerful and useable for mp3. remember that blood drop didnt say anything about having high values in those principles, that were the claw tokens.]

Edited April 26, 2009 by Nex

[stormrunner]

1. wheres your sense of fun, the gamble is half the fun
2. the way it is now is as is a rarity in anything is totally fair, no body can use it better then anyone else.where the changes you all want would make it start favoring people with creds
3. assuming they do stack, more creatures means less chance of then ending up on the same creature

sidenote: I have bought only 1 token and it one I can't even use but even so in the right hands it can be very powerful, even if the token isn't on the perfect creature

[cryxus]

i got a token on my aramor i was gonna sac, haha... what a pisser, eh mates?

[stormrunner]

[quote name='Nex' post='29452' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:01 PM'][edit: i admitted that i dont know how, for example, the blood drop will work. if it does mean that simply having a specific combination of principles will grant a 25% boost to creature stats and possible special effects than that IS powerful and useable for mp3. remember that blood drop didnt say anything about having high values in those principles, that were the claw tokens.][/quote]


only if the have the right principles otherwise is like not having the token and a true newbie wouldn't know that tell it was to late, hell, older ones don't know that ether

[Muratus del Mur]

The tokens are powerful as they are. Allowing them to be slectable or to be able to target specific creatures would make things too unbalanced and too much less fun. Of course you don't like them to be like that THATS THE POINT. Some tokens use only certain principles combinations, most use several, but some just work under a few circumstances...what if you dont have them? ...or what if you get a lot of tokens on a unused creature? and so on....

the answer to all these questions is TRADING. The tokens are so made that they encouradge collection and trading in favor of grinding and aquireing impossible powerfull creatures.

Getting a creature with more tokens is hard enough as it is but its almost impossible for players that have lots of extra creature slots, and it is those players that afford to buy such things, not the ones that just a few creatures.

In a way is a ballance, in an other is a way to make them special and not just some powerups, to make combinations of them rare and highly regarded.

The colors of the tokens change between premium and normal creatures, to suit the creature so to speak.

Getting a token on any creature increases its trade and collection value. I initialy wanted to make tokens just decorations, but then they wouldnt be in the shop.

There are 120 tokens in shop (per shop reset) and 21 different tokens. To stak them all on one creature is very very dificult but not impossible. Even the weakest aramor will have a much higher value if staked with tokens, if not for its power but for beauty.

There is an other aspect of this randomness, a financial one. If you could buy just the most powerfull tokens and assign them to your most powerfull creatures, the shop will sell just a fraction of them and its sad enough for me that paying members have a small right to unbalance the game (remind me to adjust the rusty btw). This is the same reaction as with the depth of the shop, people are annoyed that they cant buy directly the things they want ..OF COURSE THEY ARE!!

live with it.

at this point i am thinking to increase the rarity of some of the tokens and not even present them so that people wont complain they never got them but will be happy when they do...maybe also limit the number of tokens in the shop. On the other hand i might make tokens much more spread by making them available without pay, i think such powerfull creature variations are a good thing to happen on a larger scale,..then those that bought will be upset...

i cant realy say if now its the time to get them before some get even more rare, or to wait maybe they will get easyer to get by other means.... its a new powerfull change and i am not sure how it will go, probably nothing will be chnged for a long while anyway.

Right now more important are bug fixes with the tokens and also to determine what happens in situations where the ability given by the token is allready supported natively by the creature, will it remain as a decoration token only or will it amplify the ability...

but it will require time to let tokens spread and see how things move and ig they should be made more rare or more available. one thing is certain, in mdshop there wont be items with different price than 1$, lower of higher.

[Kafuuka]

what is to stop people from using alts to be certain the right creature gets the right token?
it'll have no wins or xp, and low age, but people don't seem to mind grinding.

[Muratus del Mur]

i think the age cost of transfering creatures is high enough to prevent that. And if they still do it,i think it wont be so confortable as it might look. Of course this must be tested and i agree there will be "inventive" ways to abuse or efficiently use the tokens. Note the thin line between "abuse" and "efficient".

Also think how would one go about upgrading only some creatures when you have to exhaust the first bunch of tokens so you get to the others and you cant stack same token on same creature and you cantdiscard them either....as i said, its possible but not too easy. ... and even is it will be done (i am sure it will) i dont think it will cause such a major "damage", maybe it will be just a cool thing to do, i have no clue at this point how lots of stacked tokens will affect gameplay...we will notice the damage on the way i guess

[Udgard]

Er, we can't stack same token on same creature? O_o
THen again.. I think that's a good idea.

[Blood Prince]

Well I have few tokens in my crits.

Following are my observations on the process

1.) I like the random idea. Because there a players in the game who have got the correct token to the correct crit and they are exceedingly powerful. For example I think Marvolo smashed me with 100% vs 0% using a certain token or a set of tokens. He achived this more than once on me and I myself had tokens. So imagine what stack up can do.

2.) Actually they make a vast difference in some fights for example the kelltha fire and the goldtear are very powerful to me and I found little use of emerald glare and blood drop(I think I dont have the correct principle combination). I still dont have much of an idea about Claw 1 and 2

3.) Down side of the tokens as for my profile is XP. I have been putting about 40K VE for a fight inorder to get crit exprs but I get very less. A tree ritual which gives great cirt XP only gave me around 25XP per crit eventhough the opponent has maxed crits with max VP and I had max heat and 40K VP. The thing with the tokens is it ends the fight way quickly than it is usually known to happen.

4.) I think with the evolution of tokens paves us the way for a new trade in the game as well. This is [b]principle trade[/b]. Because a given character will alomost certainly never have all the principles some of the tokens will be unusable on some players. So we can trade principles from one to another. This can be on a principle to principle basis or principle to item or crits. So it would be fun trading. If kragel came up with the slaves trade I can't see a reason for not doing this(but the game functionality has to support this kind of trade)

Those are my observations up to now. Tell what you guys think of my 4th point

[Lifeline]

from which account is the principle added bonus the crit gets form some of the tokens taken? the account that bought the token for the crit (and traded the crit away) or the current owner?
is there a limit to tokens on a crit? could i stak like 100 tokens on the same crit?

[Watcher]

The notion of a principle trade is incongruent with the idea behind principles.

King Manu has said that 'your choices define you.' When a player proceeds through the story presented to them, they have many choices to make, including which principles to focus on. "Should I take choice X or should I move along path Y? Do I want to focus on Time or do I think my character would work better with Balance or Entropy?" These choices define each character, to give them a uniqueness in the world in which we play. Even those who choose randomly or with little thought have still decided on a character-defining path.
The idea of trading principles is completely anathema to that idea. No longer would a player's character be defined by the choices they have made in the past, but by what creatures have tokens they wish to enhance.

Contrary to how many people seem to play, this game is [u]not[/u] about who can smash whom with the most powerful creature or ritual. Yes, combat and fights have a place here, but that is not the whole of this game. There is so much more to this place than creatures, statistics, and "grinding." The tokens are a gamble. One will occasionally score big while another will end up losing out. It's the way the system works and it should not be altered.

Principles are part of the core of a character. Altering something as integral to a character, such as their principles, should only happen for a solid and compelling reason. Increasing the effectiveness of one’s creature tokens is [b]not[/b] one.

[Nex]

as far as i understand it, they are calculated based on the principles of the current owner (trading would make little sense if an effect you cant use would be lost for those with the right principles just because you were the one to apply the token). also, you cant put more than one of the same token (same being claw I and claw I, whereas claw I and claw II are considered different tokens) on a creature, so i'd guess the only limiting factor is the random distribution.

[edit: @ watcher: synex made an own topic to discuss this: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=3846&st=0&p=29939&#entry29939"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.p...amp;#entry29939[/url] ]

Edited May 2, 2009 by Nex

[Lifeline]

[quote name='Nex' post='29964' date='May 2 2009, 11:09 PM']as far as i understand it, they are calculated based on the principles of the current owner (trading would make little sense if an effect you cant use would be lost for those with the right principles just because you were the one to apply the token). also, you cant put more than one of the same token (same being claw I and claw I, whereas claw I and claw II are considered different tokens) on a creature, so i'd guess the only limiting factor is the random distribution.

[edit: @ watcher: synex made an own topic to discuss this: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.php?showtopic=3846&st=0&p=29939&#entry29939"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com//index.p...amp;#entry29939[/url] ][/quote]

ah i see so lets say i have 10 crits on my profile page and buy 10 claw1 tokens. does that mean that each crit would get 1 claw token becuase 2 of the same kind cant get on the same crit?

[Grido]

yeah Life, thats how i understand it, though by probability at least one of those you buy would actually be Claw II, which would then stack on a Claw I

[Gauge]

Alright Grido, if thats the case, then what happens if you try to buy an item (ie claw1) that is already on

all your creatures? Will you in essence lose that token, or will it just not let you use it? And if it just

doesn't let you use it, then will it only activate once you "draw" a claw 2 token?

Edited May 2, 2009 by Gauge

[Grido]

you think i actually know this stuff? quoting myself:
''that's how i understand it''

i dont know how it works, i can but guess, until someone who does know, posts here