Central Market

[Kriskah Arcanu]

It is really important that you are aware of the uses this funds will have.
I don't want to take all decisions and just inform you about them. That definitly wouldn't be transparent, and it will generate disconfort ans suspissious.
I hope we can have a public meeting as soon as posible.

Regards,
K

[Muratus del Mur]

The market was indeed a good initiative on a allready prepared background. The items and the chaotic trading needed such a thing, and i must admit the slave auction was indeed briliant.

From a briliant ideea to fraud is a small way especialy when large funds are involved, i can only hope you will never need my intervention and you will be transparent and i wont hear complains about cheating people and such.

I will contribute to the market fund as soon as i see a well organzied system in place that needs support.

This is probably the first spark of an economy system we have in our small (in)sane society, and i am the central bank that can boost economy BUT only if there is a solid base to do that, otherwise pumping funds into an uncertain system will cause inflation, will discouradge the actual flow of the economy and will only give power to a limited number of people, eventualy causing something similar to a recession, probably manifested by a lack of trust to the market, illicit transactions, complains and massive paranoia. You just need to look at our RL to see the future.

...so bottom line is that i have to see when an "investment" will help groth and when it will just increase inflation

Once again, congratulations, i consider this an important step in the evolution of the realm. I wonder what will be next...

[Kriskah Arcanu]

[b]I call for a meeting on day 123, 2.00 server time. [/b]

Tomorrow I will post more details about the place and topics to discuss.

Please PM to confirm asistance.

regards,
K

Edited May 1, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I will not be able to attend until late tomorrow.
I work 14 hours, and I won't have access to a computer.

[Kragel]

[quote name='King Manu' post='29857' date='May 1 2009, 12:37 PM']The market was indeed a good initiative on a allready prepared background. The items and the chaotic trading needed such a thing, and i must admit the slave auction was indeed briliant.


Once again, congratulations, i consider this an important step in the evolution of the realm. I wonder what will be next...[/quote]


thank you indeed to the compliments there mur and i think also if it is run right the point will be the that the fund raiser kind of things will be able to help it run the best i hope we never have to ask for anything more than advice

your support in this has helped it be a more popular thing as well i think and i have already been given some ideas for other things to do to improve on the next one with some skills and suck like auctioning off cooks and guards (thanks for the idea willem)

anyway thanks again to all

and in the meeting we will be able to talk about things like public and private funds and how business works and even how you may find a nitch to make your contributions for the market to continue to grow

this is my 2c
Kragel
The Metal Mage

[Kriskah Arcanu]

We will meet tomorrow (day 123) at [b]Sage's Keep[/b] at 2.00.

The topics to discuss will be:

1. The Central Market. How will it work?

2. Funds. Ideas to use them proppely in the market

3. Tasks and responsabilities during this economic system building.

Other topics may appear during this meeting, that depends on your interest in this subjetc.

Regards,
K

Ps: We will need somebody to keep a record of this meeting.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Kragel]

Meeting transcripty, (then edited a bit by Kriskah)

Kriskah Arcanu:Ok, this is new to me so please be patient my English is horrible
Graziel:dont thank yet my internet connection can broke out or it can be end of world
Kriskah Arcanu smiles
Kriskah Arcanu:I will tell you a few ideas i have for the funds and i hope you can give me some too
Kriskah Arcanu:Mur mentioned the possibility of a Central Market, he will endorse it, and he will release more items
Kriskah Arcanu:Now, i do not know yet how will the central market will work, so i am just going to tell what i would like to do for now
Kriskah Arcanu:A portion of the funds will be for buying new items but an other part will be for a job subsidy
Kriskah Arcanu:It is for the interest of the market that coins spread so the idea it to subsidy salaried job
:Gauge nods and agrees
Guybrush Threepwood:What is the eventual goal?
Kriskah Arcanu:If somebody wants to hire or reward a new player I can help with a part
Gremlin:how often will people be paid their salary?
Kriskah Arcanu:the main goal is to prevent unbalanced riches
Gauge:I think we shouldn't really try to get into specifics right now Gremlin and focus on ideas.
Kriskah Arcanu:That should be agreed by them first. I will not determine that. I will only support it
Kriskah Arcanu:with 1-2 coins per job salary or reward
Guybrush Threepwood:So all the money will flow from you?
Kriskah Arcanu:I don't think so. I am not the only one with capital on the realm
Charles the Third slowly trudges in, dragging his feet lazily
Kriskah Arcanu:What do you think so far?
Gremlin:I love the idea kriskah
stormrunner:sounds reasonable
Kriskah Arcanu:It will have to be taking very serious so people don't take advantages
Guybrush Threepwood:I think that you would need to have a clear idea of how people should be payed, and who's going to do the paying.
Gauge:I love the idea Kriskah, I just don't love your main goal.
Gauge:People will hoard, its in their nature, plus others work harder than some, so of course they will be wealthier.
Kriskah Arcanu:They will hoard anyway, that is what is happening with items
Graziel:at least there will be place to spend somewhere their wealth
.Kragel.:gauge people will be paid by their worth if they are hired to do a job for 1 coin they will get the 1 coin if thye keep doing that job on time and very well they could make a bonus or get a raise
.Kragel.:and yes some people don't spend the money they make that's the point of having a central market to work with
.Kragel.:the market has some buying power to help
.Kragel.:and
Guybrush Threepwood:What kind of jobs could be done?
.Kragel.:if someone needs some coin if the market so chooses to they can make some private loans
Guybrush Threepwood:Is this something where we want most people to have jobs? Or just a few?
.Kragel.:which will help cause they would not be at insane interest rates
Kriskah Arcanu:There are so many... editing papers, helping create quests, roll related jobs. [b]*[/b]
.Kragel.:guy jobs will be ask for and assigned as needed how many will depend on what needs done
Guybrush Threepwood:And how would the people paying to have these jobs done get money?
Gauge:That's where maybe the central market can come in.
Kriskah Arcanu:That is when i appear
Guybrush Threepwood:But this is the question Kragel, do we want the money to circulate among the few? Or among most?
Kriskah Arcanu:I will help people with less coins to be able to reward too
Gauge:Among the most is the goal as Kriskah has said.
Gremlin: (who ever is keeping track of the meeting please message me what I miss from this point on)
Guybrush Threepwood:If it's going to circulate among most people, there would have to be jobs for most people.
stormrunner: *nods then throws guy into the white lake* do pay attention
Kriskah Arcanu:This is just an idea that needs work, that's the reason i am discussing it with you, i need ideas so this could be implemented
.Kragel.:and just so people know
[04/05/09 02:21] Guybrush Threepwood: *smacks stormrunner upside the head* I am paying attention, perhaps you should follow.
.Kragel.:guy money should circulate among the ones who cause it to flow
stormrunner:no you asked the dumb question that was already answer *throws guy back into the lake*
Kriskah Arcanu:So please give me a hand. we need to build this system together this wont be easy. I might need help from the guilds too
.Kragel.:so if more people get involved in the market more will have coin if people want to hoard or make insane request for items there are other ways to get them into the play of the game
Guybrush Threepwood:But everyone wants to cause it to flow, what I\'m saying is that if we want to have the money flow among many.
Guybrush Threepwood:We need jobs for everyone who wants one.
.Kragel.:GUY listen
.Kragel.:the question has been answered at least 2 times already
Guybrush Threepwood:I am listening.
stormrunner: *kicks the back of guys head* stop driving this in circles
Kragel.:the more people who get involved the more who get money flowing
.Kragel.:that's all there is to it it is simple
Guybrush Threepwood:I\'m not going in circles YOU listen. You need ways for people to get involved.
Guybrush Threepwood:I have one item, most have none. I got mine randomly, did nothing for it.
Kriskah Arcanu:Guy I have good ideas please listen
Gauge:That's where peoples ingenuity comes into play guy.
.Kragel.:there will be many as Kris already said wait and see what they will be
Guybrush Threepwood:I have nothing worth trading or selling.
.Kragel.:but for one selling and buying items YOU need not ones you want to hoard is the best way
.Kragel.:then come up with a useful job you can do to get paid to make yourself a commodity
Kriskah Arcanu:Ok lets summarize
stormrunner:punch guy in the rips hard*your a doc something people need their ribs fixed up
Kriskah Arcanu:1. we need to create an economy first
.Kragel.:think for a second and figure out what is it Guy can do that no one else in the game is doing and offer it up as a service
Guybrush Threepwood:Your spelling is atrocious, and no one would pay me to roleplay as a doctor.
Kriskah Arcanu:2. then we will discuss about hoard
Kriskah Arcanu:Guy, please let me speak
Graziel:about 2 we can just limit player capacity of items to lest say 2-3 max
Kriskah Arcanu:Not all jobs will be roll related. Editing paper from other, helping in a quest creation
.Kragel.:no Graziel some quests I'll do have more items then that for making an item no restrictions
Kriskah Arcanu:can be rewarded too
Gauge:I actually like the idea of giving items weight
.Kragel.:were you done Kris with your summary?
Kriskah Arcanu:you finish what you have to say
Kriskah Arcanu:Well like i was saying, we have to build an economy first, and it has to be as fair and accessible as possible. So the job subsidy was the idea i had for now
Kriskah Arcanu:there should be others ideas to add, but for now we need to work on perfection this one, so it really works
Guybrush Threepwood:You've said that, is there more? Or do we now discuss?
.Kragel.:guy silence until she says the floor is open
Kriskah Arcanu:building an economy is not controlling how people trade, building an economy means everyone can participate
Kriskah Arcanu:so that is what i intending to do
Kriskah Arcanu:people might trade their writing capacities they can offer roll play (protection, aid, lessons)
Kriskah Arcanu:there are so many things, please look at the potential of this. We need to make it work that is all.
Kriskah Arcanu:you may give your opinions now
Gauge:I don't have much of an opinion to give other than like I said before, I like the idea, and will do what I can to help implement it.
.Kragel.:no thoughts?
Graziel:where from the items will come?
Guybrush Threepwood:People need reason to pay someone for roleplay interactions. Would they? And people would need to get money before they can pay for things like training.
Kriskah Arcanu:Mur will be in charge of that
Gauge:Those already with them and hopefully Mur from my understanding.
Kriskah Arcanu:Yes they will guy
MRPip:My opinion is that this is all too hurt my brain
MRPip:That and I wasn't really listening
Guybrush Threepwood:Right now all the money is in a few people's hands, we first need to figure a way to distribute it.
Graziel:so there will be infinite number of them?
.Kragel.:then ask questions later Pippy this is not time for catch up
Guybrush Threepwood:So, who is going to pay for helping people with papers?
Gauge:Nay Graziel, or they would not have any value.
Guybrush Threepwood:Will you give someone money and have them watch over that?
Gauge:I would gladly pay two silver for someone to help me with my paper.
Guybrush Threepwood:Do you want to start paying the LHOs?
.Kragel.:guy
Kriskah Arcanu:Ok let me explain.
Kriskah Arcanu:Pample already rewards that you know
Gauge:And I would pay another two for someone to help me find the answer to MRD's first question on his quest.
.Kragel.:people who need papers fixed will pwy the people who can help them
Gauge:Like I said, that is where peoples ingenuity will take place.
Guybrush Threepwood:Kragel, that doesn't help us right now, most people don't have money.
.Kragel.:no guy lhos do what they/we do because they/we like helping people
Kriskah Arcanu:This is a lot like an experiment.
.Kragel.:Guage that would be cheating on a quest and if you are going to do that i don't want to hear about it
Gauge:Right, that is the MAIN thing, in order for any economy to work properly, wealth must be distributed (somewhat) to all.
.Kragel.:then get is guy
MRPip:It's not hard to get money...
Gauge:Sorry Kragel, that was an example, I of course mean things in the rules of the game
Shin Velleheim:SHOUTS: Muahahahahahaha!!
.Kragel.:what can you do for me to make me want to pay you anything all i have seen from you is questions of how no solutions
Shin Velleheim:hello folks....nice day isn't it?
Guybrush Threepwood:I\'m not questioning things, I have ideas.
Kriskah Arcanu:Did you all like the first market experience we had?
.Kragel.:i understand Guage im just answering the example
Guybrush Threepwood:I\'m just attempting to point this in the right direction.
Kriskah Arcanu:What do you think?
Gauge:Understood
Gauge nods to Shin
Guybrush Threepwood:I am pointing out that all these ideas of how money flow won\'t work until people have money so that it can flow.
Gauge:Exactly, and a valid point to Guy.
Kriskah Arcanu:That is the hole point of this discussion
Guybrush Threepwood:Right now I think you need to distribute some of your money to people you trust. These funds would go toward paying people to do things like fixing papers and showing new players around.
Gauge:And Kragel, it shouldn't be, what can I do for you for money, but what do YOU want me to do for the money.
Guybrush Threepwood:The funds you give them would only be for giving the money away to OTHER people.
Kriskah Arcanu:so people can have a few coins in their pockets they need to earn them
.Kragel.:i want you to be creative enough to find something you can do guy
Guybrush Threepwood:Are we talking about things that you are going to pay people for now? Or just things people in general will pay for?
Kriskah Arcanu:Are we all clear on how this job subsidy will work?
Graziel:what kind of items there will be there?
:Kriskah Arcanu looks at guy and sighs
stormrunner:I understand it Kriskah
Guybrush Threepwood:I don't think there's any specifics right now.
Kriskah Arcanu:I hope many new items will apear in time
.Kragel.:graziel Mur will place items as he sees fit and i and udgard will make items fitting to roles and avys and to quests as needed
Kriskah Arcanu:common kind of items
Kriskah Arcanu:and special ones too
Guybrush Threepwood:All we've said is that we want money to flow.
Guybrush Threepwood:So first, we need to figure out how money is going to get to everyone.
Kriskah Arcanu:so in the mean time we will proceed on generating jobs
.Kragel.:mur does all kinds of items from common to special and rare and role items too
stormrunner:here guy, you need it spelled out for you I\'ll do that for you
Gauge: (exactly)
Shin Velleheim:Mur
Guybrush Threepwood:Really stormrunner, if your not going to add anything, don\'t say anything.
.Kragel.:udgard and i do very special items and they all cost atleast 1 wp to get made
Guybrush Threepwood:Here\'s a suggestion Kriskah, give some money to some archivists for the sole purpose of paying those who help with people\'s papers.
Kriskah Arcanu:To generate jobs we have to be clear about them first.
Guybrush Threepwood:Pamplemousse already has that as a quest to get her spell document.
Guybrush Threepwood:Why not have people keep doing it afterward for money?
Kriskah Arcanu:Yes I intend to do so, but we will need to talk first
stormrunner:I tend to stay at the howling gates at times I tell stories but telling and hearing the same ones get boring I can easily pay a silver or two to anyonee who could bring me a new ones
.Kragel.:GUY
Guybrush Threepwood:KRAGEL
.Kragel.:coins are not going to just be given to anyone
.Kragel.:with out a reason stop asking for all the coin to be passed out to everyone to amke you happy
Gauge:Hes not saying that, Kragel.
Guybrush Threepwood:These are not consitant theoligies.
Guybrush Threepwood:Kriskah said she wants the money to circulate among everyone, assuming they are willing to participate and work to do so.
.Kragel.:the archies have their programs this is a meeting about the market only
Kriskah Arcanu:this has to be done with extreme caution to prevent anyone with multi acc takes advantages
.Kragel.:i may do a funds raiser for the archies if they want me to
.Kragel.:or for the paper
Guybrush Threepwood:Helping people with stories and showing them around magic duel is work.
.Kragel.:this is about the market try to stay focused on the market only
Guybrush Threepwood:The market is all about how to get money spread around, that's what the market is.
Guybrush Threepwood:This is about the market.
Guybrush Threepwood:Kriskah has mentioned paying people for helping with papers already.
Kriskah Arcanu:indeed but i will write a few points, guides
.Kragel.:no the market is about fairly trading for a profit
Kriskah Arcanu:to prevent cheating
Guybrush Threepwood:I'm just offering ideas on delegation of money.
.Kragel.:when you go to the store are you asking them to give you the food and things there ?
.Kragel.:no you are bartering with them for it
.Kragel.:COIN does not need deligated
Guybrush Threepwood:What did you just do Kragel? I thought it was a fundraiser to start an economy in MD?
Guybrush Threepwood:Fundraiser, now what is all this coin going toward?
Kriskah Arcanu:I will determine what kind of job or solved quest deserves the markets fund support
Guybrush Threepwood:From what I understand Kriskah wants to create jobs and pay people for them.
.Kragel.:it was a fundraiser to help start up funds for the market
.Kragel.:other things like arts and news paper will come later if they so want it
Kriskah Arcanu:But also the quest creator and the employer should have a responsability on that
.Kragel.:yes she does but understand this
Guybrush Threepwood:So, hiring a Archivist to create jobs is perfectly valid.
Guybrush Threepwood:You are simply deligating so you don\'t have to watch over absolutely everything.
.Kragel.:and everyone should remember all trade is for profit if possible asking questions on how much someone is making is innoproprate and people who do such things would not be able to work with the market
Kriskah Arcanu:Ok. Please if some body took notes PM
Kriskah Arcanu:Does anybody else have ideas to share to burts economy?
.Kragel.:now
Guybrush Threepwood:No one is asking anything about how much someone is making.
.Kragel.:some were in the forums thats why i mentioned it
.Kragel.:ok anymore questions on this ?
Kriskah Arcanu:Anyone else?
Guybrush Threepwood:And you were not trading earlier, you were doing a fundraiser. It is more than appropriate to ask where funds are going when you donate to a fundraiser.
.Kragel.:i am trading
Kriskah Arcanu:Guy please let other people speak.
.Kragel.:and im goving some of my profits to the market on a private base
Kriskah Arcanu:Does anyone has enything else to add..?
stormrunner:I'm returning to the howling gates, guy has gotten on my nerves
.Kragel.:and no the %age is not for you or anyone else other than those in the business end of it to know
.Kragel.:sorry stormy
.Kragel.:ok looks like the market end is done right ?
Kriskah Arcanu:Ok if nobody else has nothing else to add, I will make a few notes and
.Kragel.:so if you have questions for me or about the auction i held you may ask now
Kriskah Arcanu:will post at the forum
Kriskah Arcanu:Thank you all for listening I hope this meeting was informative enought about the funds
Graziel:done
Kriskah Arcanu:there is so much to talk yet, but I believe this idea needs work, so I wil elaborate a bit more
Kriskah Arcanu:So if no one has anything else to say, this meeting is ended
Kriskah Arcanu:thank you all

edits: made for spelling

Edited May 4, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Kriskah Arcanu]

I dont want to write anything until I read some coments from people that couldnt come to the meeting.
I need more constructive ideas, and people willing to help me. No matter how much enthusiams I put on this project, I cannot do this alone, I need you guys.

so far:

Subsidy for Job and Quest rewards will be given to certain people who will comit on this project.

The coins may be given to reward or pay for: editing papers, solving quests, roll related jobs.

Once we have spread coins we can really start building a far more complex economic system. This is just the first step, and it will need a lot of work and comitment.

Regards,
K

[stormrunner]

as a way to help spread coins I have started a quest

"when injustice becomes law
rebellion becomes duty

Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis(Education is the most effective form of rebellion)

stories are one of the best ways to educate so I tell stories as I feel the need but telling and hearing the same ones gets boring so send me one I haven't heard and I'll give you a coin or two, but remember a good story must have a lesson"

- form my protector paper

I don't have much but what I can give up without hurting my own dealings is going into this quest for now I have 6 that I can part with not much but it something

edited in note: if anyone wishs to help ether with coin or collecting the stories please pm me I tend to be at the howling gate

Edited May 4, 2009 by stormrunner

[Intrigue]

Just wanted to say, I'm proud of the new ideas coming forth from this and am willing to help as needed. I'm usually around War Hold or Tree, so feel free to find me and we'll talk, or just PM me if you find something specific you'd like me to help with. I've a small bit of funds myself (proceeds from the auction and related award) and wouldn't mind putting that back into the economy, however, I'm suffering from not being able to come up with any specific creative ideas at the moment.

A related, or possibly not, idea I had thought of was enabling certain players who have very defined roles, to produce goods on demand in exchange for coin/items, and the goods provide a temporary stat/skill/vit/vp bonus which expires within a certain amount of time, and the good disappears from that person's inventory...

Example..
Player A is a baker... Player B buys a muffin from Player A for a single silver, and Player A recieves the muffin and as a bonus, a temporary increase of 5k vitality. After an hour, the temporary effect wears off, and the muffin disappears from Player B's inventory.
As an extention of this, Player A must buy Flour from Player C to make the muffins (suggested quantity of 1-1, just as with the muffin), and Player C must buy wheat from Player D, Player D must buy farming/gardening stuffs from another player to even create wheat... and so on and so on...

Granted, it's a rough idea, and needs some work, but it could be specialized for so many of the different needs of MD, such as clothing, Weapons (as kragel already does), food, drink and other things, as well as adding an incentive for people to want to sell or buy goods by adding the temporary bonuses.

*edit.... What this idea actually entails is a constant supply and demand... kind of my own way of looking at helping overcome some of the already present hording of coin/items

Edited May 4, 2009 by Intrigue

[Kriskah Arcanu]

Indeed Items shouldnt last forever. (Kafuuka ones said so too as I recall.)
I agree with you, Items could be more real if they have properties added, and also if they dont last more then 5-6 months.
I hope this ideas can be implemented.
For now I also wish to know what do you think about what is acctualy in my power to do. The subsydi: Who else (and how) will like to help me with this new system of rewards?

I was thinkin to give 5 -10 coins to each persons comited in this salaried job implementation. Since this are public funds, this person must be very transparet in this transaccion (cautioned too) so I will demand every salary or reward to be publish on each personal paper.

K

Edited May 4, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Burns]

in addition to what Intrigue has proposed, i think that such processes need to cost time, as this is the only thing we have in this game that can't be regrown that easily

to make something worthy enough to be bought, you need to work on it for some time, maybe a day or two, in which you can NOT do anything else, like chatting, walking around, or let alone fighting...
basically, you're stuck while creating items

else there would be either no need to buy items becasue players could just go and make the items they want themselves, or you'd have the money circulating only between the persons who have a role of creating items...


the problems with such things is that it can easily be overcome by creating a few alts and place them at the places where you could grow/process items...

and, as i've said, if such places were controlled by PWRs, you'd soon have a monopoly on all items and nothing like a working market...

i could imagine connecting this idea with factions/character classes which are in discussion, though, therefore giving people the ability to specialize... which woudl then lead to items which are superior to others and therefore worhtier than others...

uhmm... sorry, but i can't come up with any solution for that issue that has no flaws, all i can do is proposing strange ideas :/

Edited May 4, 2009 by Burns

[Intrigue]

[quote name='Burns' post='30208' date='May 4 2009, 09:49 AM']else there would be either no need to buy items becasue players could just go and make the items they want themselves...[/quote]

How about something to trigger a "need to create", an affect that can only be trigged in a certan way, by another player. I've not the faintest Idea on how to work that, but I think it might could help on reducing abusing the creation system for one's own benefit. As would having to buy the items required to make said item/good.

[quote name='Burns' post='30208' date='May 4 2009, 09:49 AM']the problems with such things is that it can easily be overcome by creating a few alts and place them at the places where you could grow/process items...
and, as i've said, if such places were controlled by PWRs, you'd soon have a monopoly on all items and nothing like a working market...[/quote]

I was trying address this in my original post, but I'm not sure how to word it correctly. The way I've got it in my head, there would only be certain people who could create a certain item. This item is part of the supply chain, and thus, unless bought by another player who takes it to another who uses it to create another product, useless and valueless to a degree unless used for it's intended purpose.

[quote name='Burns' post='30208' date='May 4 2009, 09:49 AM']i could imagine connecting this idea with factions/character classes which are in discussion, though, therefore giving people the ability to specialize... which woudl then lead to items which are superior to others and therefore worhtier than others...[/quote]

Yes, I totally agree with this. The ability to create items should be a priviledge, not just for everyone. Some players already have certain aspects of this idea already implemented into their RP, (such as Firs with his muffins, and Kafuuka with his goal of obtaining a mill, as well as the one person i met briefly a while back who is a gardener) and those who are dedicated to it should be the ones rewarded with such abilities. Also, on a side note, with the current discussion of classes being primarily fighter/healer oriented, this would give yet another outlet for those who fit into neither of those catagories.

[stormrunner]

no burns your on the right track, factions will help this when they come out, the RPC will make items as rewards the lower levels of this would probably be item with little use outside trading or item making. and those in factions who are working to be item makers will be able though the rpc to make common items that would only be useful in trading. or at least this is how it sounded in the faction meeting

[Burns]

argh, both of you fail to get my point -.-

if only certain palyers can 'create', there is no job for others and no way of getting coins short of buying them...

as long as ANYBODY controls hwo items are made and processed, there IS a monopoly on items and coins, and as noble as Krishka and Kragel might be, if they start handing out their coins for nothing then they just failed

you need a way of giving every no-name player the ability of creating some useful thing WITHOUT making it too easy, and that's the big problem i have in my theory...
it would either be too easy or get people to create alts and become wealthy, you only pay for things when that's easier than making them yourself...

for example, i'm not paying anybody to do the vacuuming for me, as i can perfectly do that myself, but i would pay for getting a new oven because paying a man who knows what he is doing is better for me than fiddling with the oven myself, that the point of a market

[Kriskah Arcanu]

[b]I also wish to know what do you think about what is acctualy in my power to do: The subsydi[/b]

But if you like to talk about Items creation, their propeties etc..

I agree, only a few should be able to create items, because they should be an physic manifestation of the roll character activities, nothing else.

If there is a magician, it will be logicall for him/she to create potions. And if is really add some propeties to the owner, even better.

Also items should desapear from time to time. Every 6 month they could desapear randomly (Hope not so randomly, because it wouldn't be fair to those with only one item on their inventory). Items can get lost, broken, or just consumed.

For collector of items, those with more then 5 items on their inventory I would say they at least add those items to their dayly activity, like in a diary on personal papers. So everyone knows those items are actually being used.

K

Edited May 4, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Burns]

Krishka, you are a bit strange in your argumentation...

one time you say that only a few should have the ability of creating, and the next moment you say that it's logical that any mage can brew potions...

and, to what you can do right now:
-NOT hurry
-NOT giving out coins to random people, or giving them mickey-mouse jobs and pay them for it

-talk to Mur about what he thinks about common items and how they could be done
-talk to people who have a lot of items and ask them what they think about a market, why they need their items that badly and what they would find as a useful service, as those who already have items are mostly those who know what people want in exchange for coins and items...

(the trouble i see there: people got their items by bribing with spell docs or by trading for creatures they could easily re-recruit, they sort of tricked their partners into a deal that was nowhere near as good as it seemed LOL)

just my 2 cents, not accusing anybody of doing anything... obviously... and no, i'm not right in my mind, so you can't nail me to what i've just said, dear 'item-traders'...

[Intrigue]

Ok... First... I really don't know what you are capable of doing so far as this is all concerned Kriskah, but you have accomplished much, at least in my opinion, of getting this idea as far as it has come. That, in itself, is alot.

Secondly.... Burns, i do understand your point of view on the "monopoly* of the system, convienience versus personal effort. So.. to this... I offer another suggestion.

Each of the people who creates items needs to be dependant upon another to produce their goods, much like the example i put in my first post on this topic. I propose the very base source of this dependancy be rooted to the main market, where funds will eventually return to, and within the central wheel of the market, these funds dispersed back into the general populus through quests, personal rewards, "salaried jobs", etc. Granted, this gives the Market the monopoly over all else, but it also allows ([b]if[/b] there is no hoarding for self) sort of a guarentee that funds will be found on nearly all players, even those who enter the game with nothing. It could be as simple as someone volenteering to sit at Paper Cabin, gathering opinions from the new players, and rewarding them with a silver for their time, up to something far more complex for the older players.


*edit... I know there's alot of trust involved in this... but... as with anything.. it's a risk..just depends upon who is willing to take that risk

Edited May 4, 2009 by Intrigue

[Kriskah Arcanu]

Burns,

1. I never said "any type of mage". It was an example for the propeties of the items.

2 I have talked to many people too, for several months. I just wanted to read a few ideas at the forum before I could implement the subsidy.

3. I am not giving coins randomly. I think that is pretty obvious.... It is the main purpuse of this post

4. If you believe "Micky Mouse jobs" are editing papers, solving quests and roll related jobs, please explain to me what a serious job would be.

I ask you to please pay more atention to what I have said and what I am asking. I might not be elocuent or well spoken, but I am taking this task very seriouss.

And yes, I agree with Intrigue, Item crators need to be dependant upon another to produce their goods. Continuing with the mage example
The mage would need at least some herbs and a pot. (I couldn't find the word for "marmita" in English) He would have to find those items first before he could create any type of possion.

Items creations is a privilege. Only really commited people should be able to have it.

K

Edited May 4, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Kafuuka]

"Indeed Items shouldnt last forever. (Kafuuka once said so too as I recall.)"

I've said a lot of things, but I assume [post="27714"]you're referring to this?[/post] (mind you I said mundane items, artifacts should last or be destroyed in epic RP) It seems like there is an outflux now, with the item creating RPCs dumping the items they gather in a world bank / garbage alt. A lot of irony and odd names there...

The influx can be taken care off with quests and rewards. When both in and outflux grow, this might give a revival of the once shot down suggestion of a [topic="3539"]quest fund[/topic], only using items instead of credits.

Thirdly there's going to be a difference between influx and outflux, caused by [topic="3849"]"collectors"[/topic]. If the collectorflux is a mere fraction of the influx and new items are created often, this would become an ignorable.

Personally I would've solved the flux problem by coding (not that I'm allowed to touch the source code), but this solution will give us all more quests to do.

[topic="3830"]Items with bonuses[/topic] and consumable, muffin-like ones, would be cool too. Like with spells there should be an amount of creations per month. That would solve the time factor imo. Your character can do the job while you are sleeping. But who would be granted the power to create them?
a. RPCs, meaning we'll need more of them
b. Regular players, in exchange for one or more wish points and if it fits their role. A dwarf miner fits all stereotypes, a vampire whale hunter however...
This allows for a large variety of little creators. Some people would gather herbs, some would mine for iron. Others would melt said iron into bars and finally they would end up with an item creating RPC to be made into something unique (an 'artifact') or made into something consumable. Each person in the chain (safe for the RPC) would have spent a WP on a limited ability. eg A miner can only mine and get a random kind of ore or mineral. If that person then stops playing, someone else could be given the same ability.
One objection could be that this implies a WP -> infinite MDS conversion. Thievery and taxes (now everybody is going to make a noble or a thief character) could offset that. The more coins you have, the more likely they can be stolen (I'd prefer it if only coins could get stolen, it would not make sense for a ring or a shirt to be stolen, unless you're really really drunk) and we all know how taxes work. Maybe forbid the 'little creators' from doing quests that reward coins or from doing other jobs? Steady supply versus the other forms of revenue. It's tricky to balance but It could be interesting. And if you add weight to items it'll become even more complex. Which gives something for merchants to have: an increased carrying capacity.


And I hope I included links to all related topics. It's not only me that has said a lot of things that might be relevant, and I seem to be typing way to slow once again.. I count 7 new posts since I started... shouldn't have paused to eat cookies...

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I apologize for any offense I may have caused yesterday. It just didn't seem like everyone was on the same page, but I got out of hand and misinterpreted some things it would seem. I got out of hand, and I apologize for that.

[Kragel]

[quote name='Burns' post='30214' date='May 4 2009, 10:39 AM']argh, both of you fail to get my point -.-

if only certain palyers can 'create', there is no job for others and no way of getting coins short of buying them...

as long as ANYBODY controls hwo items are made and processed, there IS a monopoly on items and coins, and as noble as Krishka and Kragel might be, if they start handing out their coins for nothing then they just failed [/quote]

Burns, this is exactly why i said no one will be given coins for nothing every coin must be earned .... HOW? ... that is up to each one of us ...

but allowing everyone to create things is kinda like saying you never need to go to the store cause you can do it all yourself ... who made you shoes ? who made your jeans ? who made that nifty set of claws you have on your hand ? and who made that shady hat ?

the point is Mur is allowing the people who he chooses to make items make some items i cant make your hat or shoes but i could make a set of claws ... the hat and shoes i fear would burn up on my forge ...

and lord knows the muffin man makes better muffins than i mine always end up with a metallic flavor in them ... go figure no one likes metal flakes in their muffins ... LOL

but as more people step up more things will be able to be maid until them it will be in Murs hands

no one is looking to have every item or coin and those who would look to do soo are fools who are shooting themselves in the foot..

[quote name='Burns' post='30217' date='May 4 2009, 10:57 AM'](the trouble i see there: people got their items by bribing with spell docs or by trading for creatures they could easily re-recruit, they sort of tricked their partners into a deal that was nowhere near as good as it seemed LOL)

just my 2 cents, not accusing anybody of doing anything... obviously... and no, i'm not right in my mind, so you can't nail me to what i've just said, dear 'item-traders'...[/quote]
Burns here you do have a point someone who is doing this only to hoard the items is very wrong and it wont last long

on the other hand I myself have given people an option to get some items (from the hoarders) in a way to help get them unlocked for trade again as part of the tasks they can preform to get my doc ... and i change up my tasks foe those who are wondering to keep people from cheating and to try to give people different things to do ...

one set of items i had someone doing a quest for... the people holding the items are trying to make the questor give them credits and a lot of them for the items... THIS IS VERY WRONG !!! the questor has made a very good effort to get the things i ask him for and will still have a way to finish the quest ...as for the hoarders i hope they come to some since before mur would decide to take items and redistribute them ...


now for some of the other things like gardeners and the like i have mentioned it in the past even minors and several other things we even have a doctor in the game now who is questing to get some of his tools made and will be looking and waiting for a doctor/surgeon type avy as soon as one comes up


everyone is always encouraged to use your mind and come up with new ways to improve your roles click in the more info link and read it all for inventory it gives you clues on how to get the items you want made done


also remember some items require alot of ingredients some are not in the game yet so the quest may take longer

others could get some resource items made too with the right roles but it is all up to how you play your role and how mur and others see it and how everyone responds to your interactions in the game


instead of trying to build walls around the problems lets work on building roads that help us get where we are all trying to go

Kragel

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I hear a lot about item hoarders, and I guess I haven't seen to many people with items. But how many people keep items because they think it would be useful for a role, and how many are holding onto them just to hold on to them? I honestly don't know, I'm just asking.

Also, something that might help keep people from hoarding these things is removing the top item owners list. Seems like a silly list to have if you want items to spread around, but maybe that's just me. In order for a market to exist, there needs to be an infinite amount of goods or services produce able. As long as there are new players, people will need help with papers, but new players don't necessarily themselves have anyway to get coins, so this may be an issue. As far as items go, the only way to allow for infinite amounts is to have consumable items (muffins anyone?). In order for everyone to be able to be involved in the market, everyone needs to be able to produce a good OR perform a service. Now, everyone has a different role, and many could be paid for these things. In example, we have an apothecary in MD. However, he doesn't produce actual items. Would people be willing to trade tangible items (silver coins, bags of cement) for intangible ones (penicillin, whatever the heck else Virtuous Pride makes)?

[stormrunner]

[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' post='30265' date='May 4 2009, 06:32 PM']new players don't necessarily themselves have anyway to get coins,[/quote]

really so I haven't started a very simple quest that anyone can do with the reward being a silver coin and ailith doesn't have her silver coin quest ether?


please do us all a favor if your only going to bring up things people are trying to fix and not offer to help, please just keep your peace. this is as nice as I can be about this

[Kriskah Arcanu]

Ok, I don’t want this topic to generate conflicts. I wanted to know if there where any other ideas or flaws to be fixed in terms of the use for the funds. Everyone in the meeting agreed.
I will wait a few more days to give everybody a chance to speak their mine about this subject.
If anybody else has any comments to add… I will assume three things:

One: These economic issues are a bit boring, and people only want to see the market working. In other words they don’t care from where coins may appear as long as they keep flowing.

Two: Everybody trusts my judgment and be willing to help me when I PM

Three: People hate the idea, but they don’t have enough time or elements to destroy mine. :spiteful:

Either ways I will move forward with this.

K

Edited May 5, 2009 by Kriskah Arcanu