Diposing Yrthilian As King Of Golemus Golemicarum

[Lifeline]

i just read gridos petition...lemme get this straight:
yrth did a dishonorable and selfish act by damaging khal but peace who damaged wodin to the same degree (if not worse depends on perception of course) is in the team and part of all the "plotting"? u got into a dream with peace the enemy together and plot what to do. if u hate yrth for damaging khal why do u work together with peace who commited the same offence? and on top of that let her wishes play into what happens when yrth gets disposed as king. i see here the 2 ppl asking for yrth to step down and one of them themself wanting to become king to work together with necrovions leader and fullfilling her wishes. how can that ever be in the best interest of the land golemus if the revolt leader and possible future king do what peace wishes them to do and work together with necrovion? this is GG and necrovion and not GG and marind bell or necro and loreroot. grido and metal bunny seem to have the need to plot together with peace and also meet her demands i cant see anything more dangerous for the future of GG. or do u wish to unite the 2 lands into one shared leadership?

[Peace]

I really have to admit Lifeline, that your posts amuse me.

[quote name='Lifeline' date='01 October 2009 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1254430459' post='43459']
i just read gridos petition...lemme get this straight:
yrth did a dishonorable and selfish act by damaging khal but peace who damaged wodin to the same degree (if not worse depends on perception of course) is in the team and part of all the "plotting"? u got into a dream with peace the enemy together and plot what to do. if u hate yrth for damaging khal why do u work together with peace who commited the same offence? and on top of that let her wishes play into what happens when yrth gets disposed as king. i see here the 2 ppl asking for yrth to step down and one of them themself wanting to become king to work together with necrovions leader and fullfilling her wishes. how can that ever be in the best interest of the land golemus if the revolt leader and possible future king do what peace wishes them to do and work together with necrovion? this is GG and necrovion and not GG and marind bell or necro and loreroot. grido and metal bunny seem to have the need to plot together with peace and also meet her demands i cant see anything more dangerous for the future of GG. or do u wish to unite the 2 lands into one shared leadership?
[/quote]

Why do you keep comparing me with Yrthilian in this topic? Am I the one being asked to be deposed? If you want me to get deposed (not that I have a crown or I am a queen, I am merely a daughter of a King, a Princess. I, unlike Yrthilian, do not have actual power over Necrovion, simply because I am just a dead little princess now) make another topic and judge me for my actions.

Yes, indeed there was a dream called plotting and yes indeed me, Grido and Metal Bunny were in it. But what we were discussing had nothing to do with the future of GG. I do not care about GG. At all. Even the fact that I hold Guirrilla hostage is a burden to me, but I do it to remind Yrthilian of his mistakes. I stated before that I was willing to hand the alliance back, just NOT to Yrthilian. I wasn't even planning to give it to Grido nor Bunny to be honest. But I have no objection to actually give it back to them. What they will do with the alliance or with the land or with the people does not matter to me. Why? Beacuse I have no interest on GG. That's why. They have a land to protect and care for, as I have one. And these two lands simply do not share leadership for their interests are different.

[cryxus]

First I just gotta ask if you felt so strongly about Khalazdad's soul you had your chance to object...

[quote]Whilst i knew something would happen with Khalazdad i knew no specifics, nor did i realise that he would use a deadline of an hour (one that Peace was impossible to manage) before doing this.[/quote]

What did you think he was gonna do? play keep away? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have forced Peace to hand over the alliance anyways, and what good are threats without actions to back them?... but I digress, onto my main point...


[quote]I mentioned nowhere that Yrth should be banished or exiled, I am asking for his access to be removed, he is still free to be there if he gets there through the lab, i felt this fair as when my position was removed, i lost the same. I also at no point asked for my access to be restored, though of course i would like that.
[/quote]

I still don't see why this would have anything to do with Yrth being deposed... I would certainly prefer if they weren't bundled together like that, it seems as they you feel personally afronted and wish to serve him revenge by tacking these stipulations on. Although I must admit I admire the fact that you think like a true politician by adding the aforementioned stipulations on something you know will get voted on, I cannot let this slip by undetected.

I think if you truly feel Yrth deserves those things removed, and punishments doled out, then you should call for a seperate vote on whether people think it was wrong, or not, or if it was within his power to do said things, because in my eyes these are two seperate issues. One deals with the king's ability to lead his people effectively, and the other deals with whether he was in the right by making the choices he made.


~Captain Cryxus X'hal

*removed some commas for easier understanding

Edited October 2, 2009 by cryxus

[Lifeline]

no comment to peace u obviously didnt read anything i wrote before that post u quoted. glad that i could amuse u

[Peace]

Lifeline, I read all this tpoic at least three times. Just because I do not respond to all of the things you say about me, that does not mean anything. I simply try to keep this on topic.

[Lifeline]

then why do u ask these questions in ur post? i answered them all already in my posts. but u seem to misinterpret it anyway. i never asked for ur status to be disposed. i just gave examples to compare to the situation.
oh and please dont come with the its about popularity or the king having almost no support. the king still has a few ppl loyal to him and a monarchy only needs a handful of ppl to run properly. u dont need an entire parliament like in a democracy.

and u totally fail ur point in ur later paragraph. of course u dont care about GG. if the king of the land that opposed me in the past is disposed i wouldnt care anymore as well. why care they lost the person being a threat to u and the ones overthrowing him are even ur friends. and besides its another land anyway its not in the radius of control or anything.

[Muratus del Mur]

Here are the FULL records of the votes. I removed colums that are irrelevant such as ip, ids and also the player details of those voting to keep them anonymous. Those that signed yourself in the argument itself, bad luck (i think i removed your signatures anyway).


citizen is the Land, vote is -1 for against, 1 for in favor, votepower is a mark from 1 to 10 for how founded the argument was (i was not judging your arguments , just judging if you had one or not), reputation is the reputation of the player given on a subjective based on how popular I consider you to be (from 0 to 2) and extrafactor is calculated based on your land affiliation.

I didnt give any 10 mark on purpose because i am not fully decided yet what a 10 should be given for. One of the posts there deserved a 10 however.


[attachment=1183:Yrth voteing.html]

[Death Bell]

dam.. you really deserve a full rest mur.. thats alot to read O.o

[xPo]

wow... huge list... with some huge arguments...

[Czez]

Those of us who voted in this forum before the feature was implemented were only able to add comments in this thread. Were our comments also included in the final evaluation?

[Grido]

I would believe that ONLY the entries by the system were counted.

Also i'd like to say i'm disapointed to say the least that the majority of votes in favour of Yrth remaining as king were stating it because Yrth had the right to exile me, which i fully agree with(and i said this MANY times), he was (and is) king, and I was not using as a point for him being deposed. I just wish some of the voters would actually read sometimes.

To clarify; this is disapointment at the voters, not at Mur.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Grido

[Metal Bunny]

This is such a superb example of why democracy is the worst form of government, except all other that have been tried.
The people who voted just read the first few lines of the topic, thought to themselves; waitaminute, a king has the right to exile someone; and then just voted based upon that.
At half of the votes do I not see the heavier reasons, of which not the exile itself, but the implications of the exile was but a part of.
Such as, bad judgement, bad leadership, inactivity, proliferation of the alliance, inactivity of wodin, paranoia in the sense that he was extremely distrusting of others as well as burning a soul, given to wodin in good trust to him, just to regain his power.

Exile was just a tiny part of this.

Ugh..

and yes, if you haven't noticed by now, this is me, not conceding defeat.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Metal Bunny

[Kyphis the Bard]

I wonder what the consequences will be for these actions...

Would not be surprised to see Yrthilian "clean House" and exile all of the GG members who actively promoted the idea of His deposing...
(By this I mean players such as Metal Bunny, not players like Cryxus who was able to argue both sides, and therefor remain clearly neutral)

[cryxus]

Sorry, I have two things that are noteworthy to say.

First to a mini-response to Kyphis' post, and is more directed to Yrth:

Nuetrality or not... I can't let GG bleed like this... if I have to I will let Grido in as long as I have the ability to do so... Yrth I'm sorry, but it's because I'm faithful to GG... and I will continue to press for him to get his access back.


As for my second part, this goes to someone who was rated with a vote weight of 9 (hmmm) and I wanted to express my discontent with one line in particular, because it is completely unfounded, and I wanna set this person's stigma straight.

[quote]as far as this line goes "About Cryxus (not to mention about inacitvity) should i start and explain why a pirate should never be a king ? \r\n\r\n I think i should end here"[/quote]

I can understand the inactivity part, although I was only gone a month a while back and have came back at least every few days, though I was busy studying for a job in healthcare industry as well as dealing with family issues... but no matter... I digress...

I have to ask... did you even read what I said? because I don't recall saying I wanted to be king... I said I would run in the election and lord over GG with the consult of advisors, etc... but I suppose it is kinda difficult to pick that out despite the fact that i expressly stated that several times over in this forum...

As far as why a pirate shouldn't be in a place of power... why is that? I mean obviously you get that from a magical world that doesn't parallel real life at all where pirates are only ever pirates, and cannot do more than that... I mean there has never been a pirate in an influencial position like pope before... oh wait... that's right... there was.

It wouldn't have been uncommon for pirates to become privateers, then move on to influencial positions such as governors.. In fact one such pirate went by the name of Henry Morgan... but I suppose that one cannot make distinctions with such heavy prejudices... I seriously suggest you do your homework before you speak, even if you think it'll be private, because if you seriously thought that line held water... think again.


~Captain Cryxus X'hal Pirate, and damn proud of it

Edited October 8, 2009 by cryxus

[Grido]

Oh wow i think i got bored.

Most of the responces to the voting i make here have already been made at least once by someone in the thread somewhere, i write them all clearly here, to try and teach you all to actually bother READING. For my responces to make sense, it's best to read the voting responces Mur put a download link for [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5216-diposing-yrthilian-as-king-of-golemus-golemicarum/page__view__findpost__p__43945"]in his post here[/url]. I have only posted responces to the votes in favour of Yrth remaining as king(first numerical column of 1), i welcome someone to do the same for those against Yrth(-1), but respond to all the points against him please, as i (think i) have done for those for him.



As leader, you should leave emotions out of matters, and decide based on the best interests for the land.

The only show of supporting Peace happened after i was exiled, and she held the GG alliance. I did not support her in any way shape or form before that point, not taking an alliance is a show of neutrality, not of being on the opposing side. Regardless of all that, my actions have nothing to do with yrth as king, and i never argued against getting exiled.

If the only reason you didnt vote against him was because you couldnt think of another candidate, then did you consider that it isnt neccesary for there to be a king? The proposal for another King by other people wasn't set in stone.

1.Yup, I said as much. 2.If cold and calm means going off to destroy Khalazdad's soul for revenge.... 3.Backs up my responce to 2, and give her a chance? Not so much, Peace wasnt able to be online just before or for a fair amount of hours after the battle, which he knew, he '''backed this up''' by saying Peace took over GG alliance whilst he was offline also. Which i don't think is equal. 4.They went into war because they were told to, people follow their king because they are worried about what happens if they go against his wishes (General, not specific to this situ). Sorry, i think even Yrth would go against the ''one of the most active and got action in the game." bit. No, war is not a bad thing, but it must be done for the right reasons, and the people must want it. If you think there should not be a king, why vote for Yrth to remain as one? The voting Mur put up asked if you had a candidate for another king, but it did not mean that there would have to be another one, just provided the option for it. Again, this wasnt a petition to elect a new ruler.

Yrth has been King for a long time now, not sure why you're speaking in the future sense about him being "a productive and active leader of GG". Again, nowhere did i say he didnt have the right to exile me, in fact i stated several times that he did, and that that wasnt a point for removing him from power.

Again about exiling not used as a point.

The one that's clearly Yrth's comment doesnt really have anything TO refute, so, yeah.

Exiling not used as a point. Myself, Burns and Bunny now have control of GG alliance. As for civil war, well, we have control of the army alliance of Golemus, so did we win?

Err...yeah....game more active but bad ruler = good? Mmmm, no.

Ever so slightly confused with this one, but i'll try anyway. Which majority is he protecting when he burnt Khalazdad's soul, and got control over his body? Again, the petition was not to elect another, the "powerful backer" or Metal Bunny as he later posted in the topic (which i doubt you read the rest of), states later that he would be doing it anyway, even without getting kingship themselves, and that regardless of anything that happened after, wanted Yrth deposed. My loyalty isnt under question here, it's about Yrth as a king.

Again, no point made about my exile being wrong. And read the thread properly to see the points against him as king, trust me, there are a lot, which i wont list here for time issues.

O.k. to clarify there, I DID NOT give peace the GG alliance, you seem to have the impression that I did. Revolution in the real life sense, little impossible to do it any other way than we have done.

Seriously, i'm getting fed up of reading this, i made no statement saying my exile was wrong! 1)Fine, i'll go for that. 2)If what the leader thinks is best for the land, actually isnt best for the land, the people rise up and rebel against him. Oh wait, we did. And for your final point, please actually read the information given before posting, the powerful backer was Metal Bunny, he said so, yes this is considered a revolt. No i made no point about exiling being wrong. I stated several times i didn't want to be leader of Golemus. I also said about the exile being the catalyst for me starting this.

No real point given here to go against the points made in the thread.

1.Nothing about me exiled. 2.eh 3.Decision based solely on a point that has no relevance, awesome.

Once more, no point about my exile.

Kings through history have been deposed as well, i see no point to your bit.

Not going to argue against personal opinions, they're yours, you have a right to them, the thread has however stated against your opinions. Again, no point about exile made.

The people (at least in part) disagree with his decision, and so they rebel, hence the voting. Eh, again with the exile bit.

Lib(it's kinda obvious it's him), I know you've read a little of the thread at least, so i know that you must have read at least once that i never said anything about the exile being wrong. Aaaaaand that justifies your end of the war and adds some pointless bits which add nothing to your argument, nothing argumenting for Yrth there really.

Kinda have gathered an army....no practical way or attacking a group of people wihtout an ally logo though....whilst we have one. I think i covered that already though.

No point made.

Tell me how, and I will. Killing is a little harsh when he still plays, and how to force him to step down, other than what we're doing?

Again, no real point here, the "perceived will of God" would, i guess, be Mur. He allowed the vote, so that the will of the people would decide.

The kind of monarchy Yrth ran, didnt consult anyone. More than just myself and MB posted in the thread, and it was the main people who spoke out. Think i conceeded about the spies bit earlier. Insert about exile not being a point here. "as always Peace ignored it" not sure where the 'as always bit' is from...but then it's not for me to talk about her. Yrth threatened before the battle, she said she would give it back after the battle but not to him. He gave a deadline of an hour after the battle, which he knew she couldn't make, and before i start rambling i point to read the thread again. Never said about exiling Yrth, i said i didnt want him exiled, just removed from power and access removed. Exiled would indicate he wasnt allowed to be in the land, which he would've been. The cube request thing i said had already been turned down by Mur, on the day that the voting started i think. My starting efforts to depose Yrth had nothing to do with any member of Necrovion, or the Dynasty, it was my decision, and yes, it was sparked by my exile, but by no means was that listed as a reason to depose Yrth, just as a reason to look at everything he's done, and him as an unfit leader. "its what u want to see in a king. a king that is not a pushover that doesnt allow things that go against his will" So, Yrth saying statements after the start of the voting which sounded like he wanted pity? Also the new king thing was never a certainty, so saying about keeping Yrth cos nobody else can do the job is a non-point imo. Nice argument though, i can see why you got a 9 for it.

Leave him in power because we dont want future monarchs to feel threatened? Even though you understand Yrth "erred"? Again a future monarch was not a certainty anyway.

This is a rebellion/war against him, i see no other practical way to do it.

Exile not point. The citizens were fearful, i would presume, to stand up and say so for themselves, i cannot speak for others.

Weak king, best for the land.....i doubt what he did with Khalazdad's soul could be construed as best for the land. I hope it's a learning experience too.

""I like him and he\'s kind one "" Seriously? that's you're voting point?

""because healways answer my few questions "" *coughs*

Huh? First, what power? Show respect and "fight that fight" Voting happened for lack of a better option. Yrth should stay king because there isnt anyone else who should be king? I repeat that the king thing was a seperate thing to be debated, an option would've definitely been for there to be no king.

Kinda exiling point again....not sure what the proper channels you refer to are though.

Being a member of an alliance for a long time, doesnt make him a fit king.

Saying that Yrth shouldnt be deposed cos after would be a hassle? eh, not even going to repeat myself on that one.

What? You like war so Yrth should stay king? Should i bother here?

Dictator is fine, but people can still go against him should he be a bad ruler, so non-point.

Insert about kings having history of being deposed, exile not being a point. Rest of it is a bit confusing to me.

Exile not a point again? And not necceserily having a future king. Especially me, i would say i led the rebellion, and i said repeatedly that i didnt want to rule.

No other way i know of to remove Yrth as king, killing is too harsh for a character he's built up. You voting at all adds points, so yeah, at least has a part bearing on the final outcome.

Eh, no real point given.

No idea what you're on about here.

You're right Yrth did (and does) have the right to make his decisions, but should he make too many bad ones, people object. Not sure how i was meant to go about that, I saw this method as the only viable way to officially overthrow Yrth as king.

F*** that's a long vote text, anyway, onwards i go. O.k. Exile non-point. Reason for declaring war been refuted in forum i think, but regardless, attacking someone to defend your land which hasnt actually been moved against...Traitor i let. Cube, stated previously, gave an impossible task to Peace, as she wasnt online, for a stupid reason (listed previously). Shadowseeker i believe stated for both sides, rather than for one or the other. Eh, seriously, get a time frame, i wrote the doc and after the voting started a load more people voted with Yrth, and also against him. Quoting the state of the thread after i posted the petition makes no sense. As for your "It is well known that not everyone frequents the forum and thus there are posts lacking both for and against Yrthilian." The voting that carried any weight were done in game, and by using the system, you should have realised that when you said this. The voting on the forum showed my points to be correct, and that the exact same number of people who class themselves as Golemus citizens voted both for and against Yrth, i would say the point would hold fairly good ground, even if the voting did not end the way i wanted. Not sure why you seperated those two paragraphs up, you made the same points after eachof them. Yrth consulted his allies KoB, yes, or more specifically, him and Lib talked and they decided to attack Necro, but a king should be aware of what his people want, if he continues to do actions against what his people want, or without consulting them at least in part, before making his decision, people will stand against him. I did not disobey Yrth, because yrth never asked me to do anything in this instance, if he had asked me to do something, then i would have done it. I was in the alliance at the time, so yeah, actually i would know, and he didnt. All of those i have spoken to from the alliance knew nothing to very little about the war coming, until it was announced. Yeah, i gave up the point about the traitor already, i don't believe it was because they were friends though, just personal opinion my end though. Yeah, someone who so very clearly opposes Yrth's reign like that probably should get exiled, not doing so is asking for trouble. Note; speaking against is different to opposing in my book. Replied to the first bit previously. Not sure how attempting to destroy Khalazdad's soul, or actually gaining control of him, would remedy the situation, it'd be a very obvious reaction that Peace would have when she found out, and could very likely cause the alliance to be destroyed,as it turned out it didnt, but it did lead to the Golemus people not getting the alliance back as soon as they would have otherwise. Peace stated several times that the alliance would have been given back after the battle, and wouldve been if Yrth had actually given her a practical chance to give it back. He gave her a single hour after the battle, for which she was offline, and was for many hours before the battle also, for the lame reason of him being offline when the alliance was taken from him, which is a stupid reason. Yes, she was told previously that he would do it, to which she replied that she would hand it back after the battle. The Golemus people suffered because of his revenge, he got angry at Peace taking the alliance and taking some of Wodins creatures for the traitor (understandable), and took revenge by taking Khalazdad's soul, this was for his own motives, not for the Golemus people, and not for the land, it benefitted neither. Exile non-point. Cube thing got turned down, and i said so in the forum. "I do not see why Yrthilain would need to relinquish ... his powets if he were deposed, it does not reflect his status as king." And yet i lost mine when i was demoted from second in command, i do not use that as a point for deposing him, just a comparison after losing positions, i lost my Golemus powers/access when i got demoted, i figured to be equal, he should as well. In MD it is practically impossible to stage a coup any other way than by voting, if there was an practical alternative, then i would have done it. Awesomely long responce, loved responding to it, i get why you got a 9 for it.

Exile non-point

Exile non-point



btw, 19 times i said a variation of Exile not being a point, tempting to count how many times in the entire thread i've said it as well....

oh yeah, and this is me not conceeding defeat either



EDIT: To point out, i finished writing this just before 6am, so if i appear grumpy or annoyed, other than at the repeatedly writing "exile non-point" then it's because i was sleep deprived.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Grido

[Observer]

[quote]Like it or not, the decision reached by the voting is FINAL.[/quote]

Seems your a little late with all this...

[Grido]

oh don't get me wrong, i realise that the decision is final, i'm not trying to overturn the decision, i can still argue/debate with people about it though, i just wish the people who had voted had either actually read the thread, and thus found points against their arguments, or actually posted here on the thread so i could do this before they voted, i saw very few points that were not raised, and put down, at least once in the thread. So i'm highly disapointed in them.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Grido

[Metal Bunny]

[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' date='08 October 2009 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1254970249' post='43968']
I wonder what the consequences will be for these actions...Would not be surprised to see Yrthilian "clean House" and exile all of the GG members who actively promoted the idea of His deposing...(By this I mean players such as Metal Bunny, not players like Cryxus who was able to argue both sides, and therefor remain clearly neutral)
[/quote]

Here's a fact for all the newbies, regardless of whether or not you see yourself as one.
I don't have access to GG. Never had.
Me, one of the oldest players and RPC's, has no access to his homeland.

So how can I get exiled?

Also, Yrthilian remains king. But as it is with the necrovion alliance, being king doesn't necessarily entitle you to the alliance.

I also have 1 bugged spell and the inner magic doc reward spell.
I am the most non-spell RPC there is. (Hardcore RPC ftw , some PWR's have more abilities than I do)

Seeing as how wanting and trying to dethrone someone, is not against the game rules, I will not be demoted for this.
I never took creatures, so you can't take mine. I never took items, so you can't take mine.
As such; there is very, very little you can punish me with.

You know what this means?

We-stay-in-power.

And of course I am not going to debate both sides, I'm the one who revolted along side with Grido. Grido and I have equal parts in this.