Creature Stat Modifiers

[Kamisha]

They want to multiply player stats into creatures in order to re achieve the balance we had before all these ultimately powerful creatures came out. An actual relevance of integrated player stats. Currently the game is lying to you that every rit has a counter rit.

[No one]

[quote name='Rendril' timestamp='1288900910' post='71471']
Yes, I suggested they get multiplied. The point was to preserve the usefulness of the creature, for example: while a creature might have 10 times the attack of another, it's targeting or aura might not make up for it.
[/quote]
Can you put some more detail into it ?
Because creature stats being obsolete for strong players is unavoidable and it has to be like that.
As for unbalances in auras / targeting ... I thought that those things are still under balancing (untill alfa state is off )

[quote name='Kamisha' timestamp='1288930877' post='71501']
They want to multiply player stats into creatures in order to re achieve the balance we had before all these ultimately powerful creatures came out. An actual relevance of integrated player stats. Currently the game is lying to you that every rit has a counter rit.
[/quote]
Kamisha, you are such a child. 1 * x and 2*x, will always make 2>1.
If it is agreed that there are creatures that are too powerfull all by themselves ... then they must be adjusted.

As for the the lye ... it is not a lye. You just have to find out how / why.

If you have such problems with counters ... maybe I can help. (by PM please)

[Udgard]

No one, the part where creature stats becomes obsolete is what we're trying to change, in hope that more creatures will be more viable for use even at "end-game". Don't take me wrong, I used to like and accept the fact that the stronger a player gets, the less relevant a creature's stats is, which in turn has made lower-powered creatures but with better targeting abilities stronger. However, I do long for a change, where different creatures are made more viable instead of just the all-targeting ones. I'm not trying to make aramors as strong as drachorns, but to at least make them a viable choice for certain strategies. Basically, making single-targeters, multi-targeters and all-targeters have a somehow progressively weaker damage, so single-targeting creatures would actually be able to kill a single enemy faster than an all-target, although in total damage the all-targeting would probably do more.

Right now, at least what I see, is that most offensive rits are just using a creature with an all targeting skill (or multi, in cases when all is not available) to hit all enemies at once, almost no more do we see focusing on weak/strong creatures, because with the player stats, our all-target creature would virtually do the same damage as our single-damage creatures; there is no incentive. If we can make that even with player stats, the lesser targeting creatures can do more damage to a single target than an all-targeting would, there would be more incentive and viability to use more diversified strategies.

And even beyond offense, this would mean some creatures could be made to have better defensive capabilities than others, or more initiative, so it would open up a lot of strategic mix possibilities.

PS: sorry for the wall of text and probably not-so-easy to read wordings

[No one]

Ok, I understand what you want.

Yes, a change would be nice, but changing the way of computing the def / attack ... will not do the trick.
Also creature stats MUST remain as they are.

Think instead of this: a modification on how Target is chosen.

If for example ALL will take a 0.8 * player's influence (PI), the Random should take a 1.2 * PI, and STRONG/WEAK should do a 1.1 * PI, MULTIPLE 0.9*PI.

And considering that PI is also in Initiative ... the change would be quite significant without introducing big changes and without complicated formulas.

[Rendril]

No one, those targeting effects are an interesting idea. However, it is still making a creature's actual stats obsolete. The only place they matter right now is for a beginner MP3/4's. A creature might as well just have a stat that their ability is based on, like attack or power, and the amount gets disregarded because all it needs to know is how much you are giving it.

[No one]

That is the point.

Personal stats HELP the creatures at the beginning but in the end it will be only the power of the player that will win the battle.

And I think that it is like that even in the story. (some vague memories as I'm not expert in that )


So, Unless you want to make all creature have stats like 1.0001 - 1.0005 (that will be multiplied) I see no point in what you want to multiply.

[Rendril]

And what is proposed here is for both the player and the creatures matter in the battle. Udgard's argument was that very few creature types are used, that it is based purely on their targets (and I guess now maybe auras)

[pipster]

i will just say this. i think this is a bad idea, unless you could make it so it only effects players at a higher mp which would be a lot of coding for something i just don't see even being used. like people pointed out if you base it off of player sats it won't matter the guy with higher stats using it would still win so *shrug*.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1288880731' post='71434']
As for the rest of ____ proposals you really must be kidding me. A game must be simple to be understood by "new ppl".
[/quote]
I am very serious. I wrote the formula's so people could compare them with Rendril's. What they mean is that Personal Influence (PI) is distributed to the creatures in a ritual according to their base stats. Creatures with a higher attack stat compared to other creatures in the same ritual, will get a larger attack boost from PI.

Examples:
1. two creature ritual, PI = 9000
creature a has 10 attack
creature b has 5 attack
-> creature a receives 10/15 = 2/3 of PI = 6000, creature b receives 1/3 of PI = 3000

2. two creature ritual, PI = 9000
creature a has 10 attack
creature b has 10 attack
-> creature a receives 10/20 = 1/2 of PI = 4500, creature b receives 1/2 of PI = 4500

3. six creature ritual, PI = 9000
creature a has 10 attack
creature b has 5 attack
creature c has 0 attack
creature d has 20 attack
creature e has 20 attack
creature f has 45 attack
-> a gets 900, b gets 450, c gets nothing, d and e both get 1800, f gets 4050

4. a knator and three chaos archers, PI = 9000
The knator gets approximately half of your PI, each of the chaos archers receives approximately 16%.
simplified: Knator 4500 attack, archers 1500 each (vs 2250 each in the old system)
If your opponent is weaker, eg PI = 3000 defense, six creature ritual, the new system results in 20% loss of efficiency for this ritual in round 0
If your opponent is stronger, eg PI = 12000 defense, six creature ritual, the new system results in 50% increase of efficiency in round 0
(this is hugely simplified of course, eg assuming the attacker strikes before protection is cast etc.)


I don't think this is that much more difficult than the battle system already in place. I do admit I used a spreadsheet, but hey, it's Friday evening... I also make no claims whatsoever about this favoring certain creatures, I don't have enough data of all their stats. It does however what's been asked for: conserve PI and keep creature stats important (when using mixed rituals). The only price you pay is a sum of at most six terms and one division...

Edited November 5, 2010 by Kafuuka

[No one]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1288987048' post='71541']
Examples:
1. two creature ritual, PI = 9000
creature a has 10 attack
creature b has 5 attack
[b]-> creature a receives 10/15 = 2/3 of PI = 6000, creature b receives 1/3 of PI = 3000
[/b][/quote]

This is exactly why. Strong creatures will become even stronger.
If you know the stats of all creatures (hint: dracs [winds]) you would not suggest this specific change.


@Rendril:

Do consider that using just a few creature types is a privilege hard earned.

Edited November 8, 2010 by No one

[Rendril]

Wouldn't a privilege had by all, be the norm?

[Udgard]

[quote name='pipster' timestamp='1288986434' post='71538']
i will just say this. i think this is a bad idea, unless you could make it so it only effects players at a higher mp which would be a lot of coding for something i just don't see even being used. like people pointed out if you base it off of player sats it won't matter the guy with higher stats using it would still win so *shrug*.
[/quote]
The guy with more stats will be at an advantage, that is something natural. If it is not the case, we should just remove stats altogether; people won't bother raising their stats anyways. And with TS, this problem is remedied quite a lot already..
With this system, strong people actually have to think of counter rits instead of just mindlessly setting boosted draches/archers. You can still use it, but you risk running into people who focus their power with single targeting creatures, who is set to target your drach first.

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1289212327' post='71684']
This is exactly why. Strong creatures will become even stronger.
If you know the stats of all creatures (hint: dracs [winds]) you would not suggest this specific change.


@Rendril:

Do consider that using just a few creature types is a privilege hard earned.
[/quote]
Strong creature will become stronger, yes, but proportionately with their stats. Weaker ones will also get stronger, in accordance to the proportion of their stat. I do not say that I want to directly use current values; the difference between status on each creature is quite too far right now, but I'm trying to evaluate the concept itself. If the stats can be "balanced", would the idea work?

[No one]

ok, ok, let me put it like this: same formula must work for MP3 with 0-100 stats and for an MP5 with 1-10k stats.
For the moment, for the one with 10k , the max stats are given by player (the creatures have little to no influence).

If you change it, the 10k will be split unevenly and will get to even bigger unbalance in the ritual.

And one more question : when do you apply the "stat balancing" before or after the tokens ?

Do consider that the dracs tokened and boosted can be up to ... many many many times more then a single heretic in same ritual and not boosted.

So, unless you want to make the dracs (ok, ok, I know it is a spoiler ) even stronger in same ritual ... then do the changes.

Why don't you do some xls files and add there some formulas and see the impact. If it is promising ... add some comments and share it with us.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1289212327' post='71684']
This is exactly why. Strong creatures will become even stronger.
If you know the stats of all creatures (hint: dracs [winds]) you would not suggest this specific change.
[/quote]
I stated I don't have that data; you're free to pm it to me though. I posted my view on the formula's based on what has been asked for: creatures with strong stats should become stronger. For balance it makes more sense to base it on a new skill, call it 'intelligence' or 'cooperation' or whatever you wish. However that requires both introduction of a new creature-only skill, and while it is possible to use both this skill and eg attack skill at the same time (ie multiply them) to determine the redistribution of PE, I highly doubt people will like that complexity more.


[quote name='No one' timestamp='1289232202' post='71689']
And one more question : when do you apply the "stat balancing" before or after the tokens ?
[/quote]
I think the PE and tokens should be applied separately. That is the most certain way to keep the changes from breaking things.

[quote]
Do consider that the dracs tokened and boosted can be up to ... many many many times more then a single heretic in same ritual and not boosted.

So, unless you want to make the dracs (ok, ok, I know it is a spoiler ) even stronger in same ritual ... then do the changes.

Why don't you do some xls files and add there some formulas and see the impact. If it is promising ... add some comments and share it with us.
[/quote]
I did do calculations and thought the results were interesting. I shared them with you.
But I did them on archers instead of dracs... Of course, basing the redistribution on a new skill instead of innate stats solves all problems. The amount of new variables to be introduced then allows for a near infinite amount of possibilities... Is there a point in trying to capture infinity in a spreadsheet?

[Udgard]

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1289232202' post='71689']
ok, ok, let me put it like this: same formula must work for MP3 with 0-100 stats and for an MP5 with 1-10k stats.
For the moment, for the one with 10k , the max stats are given by player (the creatures have little to no influence).

If you change it, the 10k will be split unevenly and will get to even bigger unbalance in the ritual.

And one more question : when do you apply the "stat balancing" before or after the tokens ?

Do consider that the dracs tokened and boosted can be up to ... many many many times more then a single heretic in same ritual and not boosted.

So, unless you want to make the dracs (ok, ok, I know it is a spoiler ) even stronger in same ritual ... then do the changes.

Why don't you do some xls files and add there some formulas and see the impact. If it is promising ... add some comments and share it with us.
[/quote]
Yeah, I will certainly try drafting some spreadsheets. As for tokens, I think the easiest way would be before tokens, so the token effect would not be boosted. It would be different depending if Kafuuka's version or Rendril's version is used though. *goes back contemplating*