Lessons In Arguments

[Grido]

Right, well reading through both the voting for the Necrovion king/queen elections, and that of the king of golemus, it has come to my attention that the majority of players cannot structure arguments or debates, either that or you dont know how to find appropriate things to argue about.

So I have decided to (try and) teach those willing to learn. I will not be telling someone how to vote or which way to argue, and so to avoid any complaints of such, I will use random real life examples for the issues to argue in favour and against about.

I want to first see how many people are interested in me helping them with this, hence the poll, and those interested, would they also post here. Voting, and then not telling me that you want to learn doesnt really make much sense.

Anyone willing to help me teach is welcome to offer their services, keep it short and sweet though please
As a note to those offering services, i will need to actually check you can argue well before setting you loose on other people




LE: Err, before anyone makes a comment about it, no this is not me objecting to ANY vote results, i just want to improve the calibre in the future.

LE 2: Also, clarification, no, i don't want spam posts on this thread, people who want the help, want to help, or have a well thought reason why they think it's not needed, feel free to post, otherwise, please don't. Just....this is a genuine thread, I don't want spam on it.

LE 3: If you are wanting to offer services to help teach people, can you send me a for argument, and also an against argument on a single topic of your choice (doesnt have to be very long, just to show you can argue a point), whatever method you find that's easiest to send it to me.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Grido

[Kyphis the Bard]

I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say, however my time is going to be restricted so if it is done in game and I am not present I would appreciate being sent a log.

[Grido]

it'd be a teaching system, it wouldn't just be a one-off lecture

[pamplemousse]

Sounds interesting, I'm in.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Grido' date='14 October 2009 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1255485871' post='44622']
it'd be a teaching system, it wouldn't just be a one-off lecture
[/quote]
Yes, I understood as much, however that is the reason for my comment being as it was. If it was a once off event, I would be able to make time for it easily, but as a series of events, I may not be able to. Hence, my request for a log incase I (or another, for that matter) miss one.

[Grido]

In which case, I will ensure a log is kept

[Czez]

I've taught argumentation at the university level. You are welcome to ask for my help.

[Grido]

I kind of prefer the idea of it being offered rather than my asking, but sure.

Can you (and i'll edit into my first post asking others to as well) send me a for argument, and also an against argument on a single topic of your choice (doesnt have to be very long, just to show you can argue a point), whatever method you find that's easiest to send it to me.

[cryxus]

Hey Grido, if you need my help, I'll help, sounds like it'll be fun even.

[Kafuuka]

This should be interesting, both to teach and to learn. I consider myself well versed in logic, but you cannot teach debate without explaining the difference between a logical argument and a persuasion.

As an example, I'll dissect a part of a post I once made in the central market debate:
[quote]
5. banking
I thought MD was going to have a primitive economy? What's next, stock options in Kafuuka Milling Inc? Does anyone want to start selling those and give me the proceeds?
[/quote]
The first sentence contains half the argument, which if you write it out goes:
- premise 1. MD is supposed to have a primitive economy.
- premise 2. A primitive economy does not include banks.
=> MD should not include banks.

The other two sentences are humor, but contain a lot of persuasive power.
- premise 3. Stock options in Kafuuka Milling Inc are silly.
- premise 4. If people are silly enough to buy stock options, Kafuuka will get rich sleeping.
- premise 5. Getting rich while sleeping is a bug or an exploit; it is not supposed to be possible.
=> There should be no stock market in MD.
This does not say anything about banks at all... however, most people will read one more premise.
- premise 6. Banks increase the chance stock markets are found from X to Y.
The persuasive power lies in people thinking that X is 0% and Y is 100%. In reality X and Y are something like 0.0000001 and 0.0000002. Even if you get the numbers right, it is stated in humorous way, so you cannot attack this argument.

Note: I'm not saying I expected you to fall for the persuasion, but certain target audiences would, depending on culture, education, exposure to commercials etc.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I think teaching people how to analyze an argument might work better first. I'd rather not have a bunch of people voting on something for some ridiculous and pointless reason learn how to BS their way to a reasonable score. Though, learning how to argue will help them analyze arguments I suppose.

Edit: Perhaps ethics in argument should be included as well? Though that will likely not stick.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[GgSeverin]

intersted
we can find a MD way to a conclusion in any debate. This would be a huge acomplishment.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Guybrush Threepwood' date='14 October 2009 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1255539922' post='44669']
I think teaching people how to analyze an argument might work better first. I'd rather not have a bunch of people voting on something for some ridiculous and pointless reason learn how to BS their way to a reasonable score. Though, learning how to argue will help them analyze arguments I suppose.

Edit: Perhaps ethics in argument should be included as well? Though that will likely not stick.
[/quote]
You cannot explain the difference between a clean argument, a misleading argument, a persuasion and pure bullshit without giving examples of things that are not clean arguments. Besides, the more you know about persuasion, the better you can arm yourself against them.

As for ethics, in theory one should stick to arguments only. No hidden premises or other tricks. In practice people will always use everything they think they can get away with, so the only way to stop them from using tricks is to learn the tricks and warn other people. Which is once again the reason to teach people how to wrap bullshit with a nice colored ribbon.

[Grido]

As i'm not sure i pointed this out yet or not....

Lessons may as well begin after the elections are over.

People are free to send me what they consider to be arguments at any point though, i will repond with what i think are good and bad points of it, and try to help you with it. The topics should NOT be related to MagicDuel.