Using Of Md Artwork For Md Purpose

[Blackwoodforest]

Since I get bothered with this for all my current artworks and creation, I´d like to have this decided by Mur.

Can I (and so might others maybe) use the ingame artwork and images for only quest and ingame purpose?

I need a clear yes or no.

If there will be the decision that I have to ask the owner of the image rights every time, i will quit creating MD stuff on my way because I can´t do it otherways and this will consume more time then my whole MD lifecycle in complete.

Thanks you

[Grido]

[quote]If there will be the decision that I have to ask the owner of the image rights every time, i will quit creating MD stuff on my way because I can´t do it otherways and this will consume more time then my whole MD lifecycle in complete.[/quote]

i dont mean to sound offensive, but...are you physically incapable of making artwork that's entirely your own? if you are, then fair enough, but if you arent, what's the issue with just drawing it all yourself rather than copying images?

[Jubaris]

and what's the issue of using MD symbols for MD events?
since Mur never mentioned EVER anything against that kind of acts... and you're in a visit to him, so you can ask him directly about opinion on this, without bringing number of hypothesis

[Blackwoodforest]

Maybe I can´t, maybe I won´t - where is the difference? Do I have to create things on my own? I do my art on my personal way and it is manipulating and composing others work. If I could draw like a freaking genius this topic would never ever been created, isn´t it so? So please stop blaming me for doing high quality s**t with others stuff, my outcome it quite great and I like to keep it that way and only wan´t to have decided if I can continue this way or not. And if not, I am unable to perform my art and I have to stop it, simple but clear statement.

[Grido]

[quote name='Blackwoodforest' date='07 June 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1275899798' post='61215']
Do I have to create things on my own?
If I could draw like a freaking genius this topic would never ever been created, isn´t it so?
So please stop blaming me for doing high quality s**t with others stuff
And if not, I am unable to perform my art and I have to stop it
[/quote]

Generally that is what artwork is
Well yes, because there would be no issue about copying artwork then, it would be all your own
I'm not blaming you, i'm questioning it
And that last part worries me, that you would cease to produce any artwork if you're not allowed to copy images

[Jubaris]

so, by your definition, making artworks combining other works, isn't artwork?
you do not know what art is, then.


furhermore, it is not your place to be concerned over this. This wasn't done in secret, so you do not have to speak instead of Mur as the 'investigator' who found out about it. You also haven't quoted any copyrights that clearly show WHAT we aren't allowed to do, you were just making random thoughts.

But, no matter the law or not, if Mur tells us what he wants to be done with it, I will do it (remove or leave the art.), since I am not that kind of person to continue the blind following of a law and abuse its holes.
This is about... common sense.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Blackwoodforest]

Grido, it is so simple. See, I can´t draw. I seek images which seem to be a good part of a pic i have in mind. So i mixed them up, bit by bit, and finally the outcome is a new image. I use MD artwork because it is already part of MD. If I would use outstanding pics there will be no connection to MD and it would not fit as well. That simple I can´t produce anymore what I am about to create for MD, why continue then creating crap?

It is like a DJ, he is not creating songs of his own, he only mixess them up and changes them and get a new resulted track. If he can´t use the origin song anymore, he can´t mix up.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Blackwoodforest

[Pipstickz]

Death Ring got a WP (#431 if you'd like to look it up in the log room) for making a video of MD. I think it's safe to assume that Mur doesn't mind if you use his artwork within, or to support, his game, and that if it were the big deal that everybody's making it seem like, then Mur would most likely make an announcement or something.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4LTepURVYM"]Video[/url]

Edited June 7, 2010 by Pipstickz

[Grido]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' date='07 June 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1275900902' post='61218']
so, by your definition, making artworks combining other works, isn't artwork?
you do not know what art is, then.

furhermore, it is not your place to be concerned over this. This wasn't done in secret, so you do not have to speak instead of Mur as the 'investigator' who found out about it. You also haven't quoted any copyrights that clearly show WHAT we aren't allowed to do, you were just making random thoughts.

But, no matter the law or not, if Mur tells us what he wants to be done with it, I will do it (remove or leave the art.), since I am not that kind of person to continue the blind following of a law and abuse its holes.
This is about... common sense.
[/quote]BF isn't "combining" (in this case) he's using a program with a template of a shield, colouring it in 3 different colours (very easy) and using a magic cutter to cut round the outline of the master archer and then pasting it into the middle of the shield. Which quite frankly isnt art, and i could probably do it to the same degree, and i'm by no means an artist.
And yes, i do know art.

I am not speaking for Mur here, i never said that it wasn't allowed, just that it should be checked if it is. And you want me to go through international copyright laws for images? Because i'm pretty sure i could find an appropriate section if i looked (i'd have to find the copyright laws listed somewhere first though).

So it's allowed unless you're told it's not allowed? Wow the amount of things i could write here using common sense about that line.


[quote name='Blackwoodforest' date='07 June 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1275900914' post='61219']
Grido, it is so simple. See, I can´t draw. I seek images which seem to be a good part of a pic i have in mind. So i mixed them up, bit by bit, and finally the outcome is a new image. I use MD artwork because it is already part of MD. If I would use outstanding pics there will be no connection to MD and it would not fit as well. That simple I can´t produce anymore what I am about to create for MD, why continue then creating crap?

It is like a DJ, he is not creating songs of his own, he only mixes them up and changes them and get a new resulted track. If he can´t use the original song anymore, he can´t mix up.
[/quote]That isnt art that you say you do. Art is original work, even a DJ, (since you consider that art) is doing original work, because nobody else using the tracks in the same way as them, and besides they pay the creator of the music for the right to use it.



@Pip, At no point does DR claim any of the art of his own he advertises it as MD.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Grido

[Blackwoodforest]

You are much to stubborn to see, art is always subjective on someones view. If you don´t think this is art, fine. But don´t tell me that I can´t call my creations art or others. It is not how it is done, or how simple or not, this even is not the topic and I don´t know why you bother this now.

Fact is, we all know what a copyright will mean, and we only wan´t to know if we can use MD content. That´s it, so please stop making a bigger deal of it going to personal levels where blaming folks how "simple" their skills are.

Edit: I never claimed something I have done for my own.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Blackwoodforest

[Jubaris]

if it's easy, doesn't make it any less art.
as any of DJs works are unique, so is this, and so can anyone do to repeat it tho it is unlikely.

and of course I want you to do it. Since you are saying we are doing something wrong here we need to change. Give me the profs (as dst likes to say) that I need to change it, for I think I do not need to, since, I need to repeat it for the 10th time, this MD artwork is used for MD purposes, no one claimed its drawings as his own, and owner of this site never said that people can't use it in such a way, and people have been using it for a long time.

[Grido]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' date='06 June 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1275858440' post='61174']
ps. thank you blackwood forest for making the logo
[/quote][quote name='Blackwoodforest' date='07 June 2010 - 07:42 AM' timestamp='1275892959' post='61204']
You are welcome
[/quote]
Sorry, you're quite right, you never claimed it was your own work....

Sure, art is subjective, i know, but putting together several things without any/much of your own creative input isnt, you used an image from the game (which we dont know if you're allowed to) a template from a paint/similar program, a texture, and a couple colours, i see little creative input, when you take from so many places.


I'm not actually going to look up international copyright laws, but vaguely; No person has the right to reproduce artwork that he does not have the right or permission from the creator to reproduce. If such an occurance occurs then it is up to the owner of the material as to if they wish to prosecute provided the material is copyrighted. (which the images of MD are).

Just because something is not said, doesnt mean it's not true. (I'm not saying that it is true, i wouldnt think to assume) i'm sure if you asked then Mur would say yes, but the point is, you ~haven't~ asked.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

To be fair, the DJ analogy is quite good...

A DJ doesn't pay for the use of the music he remixes IF the music has been created to go on an album belonging to the original artist and is not to be used elsewhere. In this case, lets say Mur is the original and Blackwood is the DJ - Blackwood is creating free remix tracks for Mur's album which Mur can choose to bin or be allowed on the album at no cost to either party and which all parties know will never be used elsewhere.

In this sense, it's more a matter of if and when Mur doesn't like it, he can step in and say so and have it removed from his "album".

Ride with the big dog...(thats for the brits...i doubt anyone else will know what this is ref to lol)

Z

[Jubaris]

as you can see this issue has been going out for some time.
I wouldn't like anything more then to talk with Mur about this kind of things, what is allowed and not, can this be done, etc. but I can't... have no ways of contacting him for sure, since he is very hard to establish contact with, with him dealing with much important business around MD itself then 'random' chatter (and not to think of all the other duties he has.)
With him, in my thoughts, being impossible to contact, thus overlooked as an option and with the fact that this certainly isn't the first (or anyway near first) time for something like this to be done in MD, I simply announced it.
Never were there any issues with this kind of thing except the mettling noses of MD's own members (grido and the watcher - are they even the same person, I do not know.) - no offense grido
All this were public and easy to terminate from the very first step, if Mur (owner of this) wanted to, and he didn't. So you have no right to make decisions instead of him, decisions he could have done long time ago.


edit: and I repeat again, all he needs to say "this is wrong, I won't approve it" and I'll remove it. It is his own creation, this realm of MD, and his own rules and I respect that. All I ask now is for those that affect our acts are made public, so I know WHEN I am crossing my boundaries or not, and what to do.
he says that we should apply "common sense" when doing something. well this is common sense, art piece from MD taken as a symbol of an organization/guild/whatever that is part of MD, is not wrong.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Blackwoodforest]

[quote name='Grido' date='07 June 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1275904155' post='61230']
Sorry, you're quite right, you never claimed it was your own work....

Sure, art is subjective, i know, but putting together several things without any/much of your own creative input isnt, you used an image from the game (which we dont know if you're allowed to) a template from a paint/similar program, a texture, and a couple colours, i see little creative input, when you take from so many places.
[/quote]

This is getting pointless. You may find me non-creative, but that is your issue Mr., not mine (think about it)! You judge my work - allright, but you can´t judge the definition of my work what it is for others or me.

I haven`t asked, well right. I haven´t asked to use this pic. But let´s turn this. Have you asked to use your ingame avatar as Forumavatar? Just as example...So please keep this down and focus on the issue. I will await now only a judgment and I am done with this.

[Muratus del Mur]

The issue is as simple as it is important. It should be clear by common sense, but for the sake of having something clearly said on my part about this issue, here it is..

Images FROM MD, can be used for quest purposes, mixed together, altered, etc, as long as they are not creating confusion. No image should be used that could be considered a spoiler, like premium creatures, remote locations, achievements colored art, etc. No image from md, copied, traced, or similar can be used, for avatars. Avatars should be entirely original and not refering to any existing creature in md. Shop artworks/icons, should not be used, as they can be considered spoilers. Alliance logos will never contain art of creatures or locations, but you can't do your own alliance logos for now so this doesn;t matter for now.

I recommend you try to be original, it is much more valuable to have a crappy looking but original artwork, than to copy an existing location. A very good quest or puzzle idea can be ignored or less impressive, if it uses copy pasted images, unmodified.

Your common sense should tell you what things are obviously not right to do, like pretending you are the author of one or the other md artwork, when in fact you are not. I don't expect anyone will do that, but still i said it.

When using location images, it would be much better to screenshot them , since if you use them with transparancy they will be easyer to steal by people outside md. Scene locations are not indexed by search engines, but player papers are, so when you place a scene location on your papers, with transparancy, someone can use it for an other purpose, and thats realy bad. If you used screenshot images, with the background canvas, it will make it harder for others to use, while they will look acceptable in your papers.

Just to make sure you read one of the things above... self made art, when the case will be, will mean a lot more to me than copied art. For those that can't, using existing art, from md, BUT NOT FROM OTHER PLAYERS PAPERS, is a fast and convenient solution, that is alright unless it get in the wrong direction (use common sense to define that)


Feel free ask if you are uncertain about something or if was not clear.

[Jubaris]

uhm ok, having one question.

(although due to 'complications' it will probably removed any way, I'm asking for future projects)

would this be ok? [attachment=1755:loreroot_rangers_neu1.png]

Lore archer can be found at max level when going against Lorerootian guards. So people wouldn't get it spoiled if they saw it. And I doubt anyone of the players younger then those few days when they find out about Lore guards would see it anywhere.
there are few creatures that represent their lands. Angiens, shades, knators, lore archers... Can they be used as symbols for their lands in some related events?

and is it ok for something to be copied from MD (and used for MD of course, with explanation of who the owner is, etc. etc.) if it's not spoilerish? example: it is not exactly a location but part of it - Maple Road guardians. They wear a shield with a tree-symbol, and I like it. Can it be used as part of LR symbols?
or details from MB gate as symbol of Marind Bell.
or details from gates of ages as symbol of GG
or details from howling gates as symbol of Necro.

they aren't spoilers for they are open to access right away. And a lot of MD artworks I guess can be used to symbolize things related to it in a way even people's avatars, like, silly example, making of Morquor's Crusade, using a logo that is based on his avatar (he doesn't have one, tho it's not the point ), would that be alright?
I understand these are small questions but I need to make sure, you weren't very strict and since you are already here... so here's this to avoid missinterpretations of 'common sense'

also, should drawings also aim to avoid spoilers? (like... drawing your own version of angien if the original artworks aren't allowed to be used. would that be allowed?)

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Muratus del Mur]

technically that shield with archer art can be used for personal purposes. Like i said, alliance logos are not made by players, i will provide them. Personal logos, art used for quests, to do flags for own quest-like contests or events, can be done anyhow you like as long as you wont spoil anything and you wont pretend they are "official" things. It can be "official" within a closed group, but its authority cant automatically spread over other groups or players. Over time, a stable enough group, that manages to survive without any help for me, will achieve its own authority..then, but only then, if needed, i can discuss what symbol it can have, or request changes in the symbol to better fit it within md. For a new or temporary group, you can place a pic of your dog as a logo , i don't care, since it is a personal and not an official one.

"Can it be used as part of LR symbols?"
deducting from what i said above, no, it is one of the player made symbols, so it is part of the "Lore" of "Loreroot" , together with all the things LR citizens created. From that to an official symbol of the land its long distance.

So that you understand, i didn't allowed even the veteran artists in md to create symbols randomly. On top of that , that is not a symbol, is a collage.

About angiens, you can use normal angiens, but not the tainted one. I don't know what to say now, but there should lots of ways to avoid spoiling but still using images to refer rare or premium creatures, like, using a small part of it, using a shadow of them like achievemnts pics look, or shifting the colors towards sepia to avoid showing them (for premium only) . Drawing your own angiens would be too cool just to replace existing pics, if you can do that, you should probably use your skill in a different way.

You can use your avatar as you wish, no restrictions. Of course if you put a crown on it and pretend you are the king of a land, that will be regarded as a funny joke but nothing more. You can use other people avatars with their permission, because maybe they plan to change it soon so they dont want someone to use it yet.

[Blackwoodforest]

Everyone satisfied with this answer? At least I am Thank you very much for making a last statement.

May Grido have to honor to close this [s]thread[/s] collection of art discussion, please!

Edited June 7, 2010 by Blackwoodforest

[Grido]

Like i said, i never said that you werent allowed to use them, just that you never asked/got an official answer about it, that was my issue

lol, honour to close the thread
i actually cant, but i'll get another mod to, mods cant moderate topics they're involved in after all