Discussion Of The Item Round-Up

[Kafuuka]

I prefer distribution according to role, reason and [b]merit[/b]. It does seem tedious though. The community has never come to a consensus on what is 'proper roleplay'. A lot of people ignore the difference between an argument and a persuasion. And some things are technically correct but morally wrong, eg. "My character is the Grinch, therefore I should get one hundred items and then nobody else can get presents." There's also one hundred of them... if every player is going to submit a reason for every item, who is going to read and judge them all?

I propose the distribution occurs in phases.

Phase I
Lasts a fortnight
Five medium level puzzles and contests are held. To cater to the different needs and to humor Burns, there should be one decryption puzzle, one fighting contest, one find the next clicky, one creative writing contest and maybe something original Actually I don't know what kind yet but everybody should have a chance at solving at least one puzzle, while few should be able to solve all.

Phase II
Lasts a week
All unique items and their descriptions that will be distributed are put on public display. Players can write one argument for one item they want per ticket they gained. Placing two tickets on one item will sum your argument scores for that item and thus increase your chance of winning that item. False or duplicate reasons (per item per character) will get negative points though! Perhaps the number of tickets put on each item can be displayed too, for strategic purposes.

Phase III
The arguments that were valid but did not win an item will be translated into scores and the scores per player are summed. The remaining items (raw materials and items nobody wanted, if any) are distributed according to score. (Or by lottery where score increases your chances.)


Pro: the number of reasons to be reviewed drops drastically. It'll be exciting for everybody and a number of strategies are available. Can be incorporated to the festival and made a yearly event.
Con: needs five very good puzzles, in design and difficulty as well as fair execution and rewarding. Displaying item descriptions might be spoilers yet considering the trouble people will go to, they should not be duped. Needs ticket items to be made, although that should be straightforward. Still needs a judge to review a large amount of arguments.


[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1283433027' post='67564']
On the grander scheme; A limit on the number of items an account can hold may help, but as crafters etc ask you for other items (with your wp) to make a singular item this means often you have to carry/collect a bunch of items you don't want or need in order to make this one item which makes things a bit of a pain(to make an item I have in mind atm for example I will need at least 3 other items with a wp and I will have to carry these until I can get the item made). Then you have to also consider "non-entity" items like medals and certificates. So, perhaps 4 sections to your items list: a limit of 5 in the collecting to make other items section, a money section, a medals and certificates section and a limited normal items section.
[/quote]
As you said this is a double edged sword. It prevents hoarding to some extent (alts are not accounted for) while it also cripples people who are not trying to hoard or get a monopoly. Splitting it into categories might work but it will make the interface even more clustered and is artificial. I think it would translate better if every item has a weight variable and players have a carrying capacity (which might be increased for alliances or by items). Raw materials should naturally have the largest weight, while coins and medals and small trinkets should be light or even weightless.
To limit the number of finished goods, a power value could similarly be assigned, which depends on the properties of the item. Items that are usable would have the largest power ratings. A player's capacity to carry powerful items could be modified by principles (minimal influence), mp level (moderate), age (minimal), number of spent wish points (large) and by spending a wp on increasing capacity (humongous).

Obviously, power and weight values are very much subject to debate and the system will not be noob friendly. It does make RP sense to me though. You just cannot carry a hundred swords without having a bag of holding or a dimensional pocket. Using an enchanted item, in a low magic setting - which I believe MD is - should not be something taken for granted. It takes time and effort to attune to the tool, to feel how much energy is stored in it and to replenish it after its use.
The system is flexible, allowing a large amount of bonuses to allow people different carrying capacities and thus increase diversity. I will however not say it is 'fair'. I don't think any system can be truly fair, nor that MD is based upon the common view on fairness. Some players have earned or by coincidence been granted the reputation of being powerful and as such it makes sense for some of them to be able to carry more powerful items.


@Yrthillian: I suppose king items could be made weight and powerless or kings could get a power bonus. The latter makes more sense to me. Managing items... I don't think it'll be interesting for the average player to have extra buttons to click before they can see that one item they have. Plus items should still all show up in the inventory list for others to see if they check you, if I understood Zleiphneir's intentions well.

[dst]

One thing about apophys' idea: I have no items (I don't like them so I shift them to poor No one) but I have a pretty big number in active days. This means that I will definitely get an item. I get the item and I, again, move it to No one. I am itemless but still with lots of active days. Unless you add some sort of counter, condition, whatever I will always get items.




ps: I loove Kafuuka's idea about the puzzles (unless he makes the puzzles, or Metal Bunny )

Edited September 2, 2010 by dst

[Udgard]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1283428242' post='67557']
making the items have a time limit would be annoying to the active ones.

perhaps set a timeline of, let's say one month after an account becomes inactive for the items to re-distribute themselves.
[/quote]
The problem with items redistributing themselves only after inactivity is people can just log on once in a while to hoard the materials. My point of suggesting a decay period is so raw materials has an incentive to be used, or in case you don't have any use for it, to be sold (for a reasonable amount, since now hoarders can't just hoard their items until someone buys it, or else they might disappear before it happens). I am totally against any kind of timers on non-raw materials or consumables (such as the wasp potions).

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1283429102' post='67559']
Time limit for materials could work i suppose or if you wanted to use the items in
conjuction with the item creators in game you could have the material burn up and be sent to
a shop of sort with limited stock for player to buy the materials from with silver/coins

you can use thoes coins to make payment to the coin cert thing you did for the item return
and later use them for something else i am sure.
[/quote]
Yes, that is actually why I suggested it in the first place. It was meant to work something along that line with the raw materials system expansion I had planned, although now that we have new systems in progress as well, adjustments would be necessary.

[quote name='apophys' timestamp='1283430257' post='67560']
It would be nice for more of the general population to get items and play with them. However, people are greedy and won't let go easily, so here's my solution:


By default, the items in Mur's holdings should be distributed based on activity (something based on active days modified by last login date) and current item count. I.e. pick the people who don't have any items yet, and give the most active of them 1 item each.
Also, put a countdown timer on each of these items (like 2 or 3 months per person; alts included in the definition of "person"). When the time's up, it gets redeployed in the above fashion (to the most active person with no items). The countdown interval should be cut in half for every other item held at the moment when acquiring the specific item (preventing buildup).

This would encourage a background level of trade, for people not to lose their items (the countdown timer is not reset when trading among alts, so it is real trade, even if only back and forth). Also, items disappearing on inactive people would be something not to worry about; when the time's up, they'll be back in the system automatically. And truly active people who have only one item would still get another one (or keep their current one) if the timer reaches 0.


In other words, create a system that seeks uniformity and is self-sustaining, counteracting human greed.
Being a hoarder (up to about 7 items) is still possible, but would require a lot of work to keep up or they'll disappear.


Of course, you can do whatever starting conditions you like, sending by reasons, role, etc, but that would eventually become a drag to keep doing, so it's not sustainable permanently. I hope my suggestion has what it takes to be permanent.
[/quote]
If people is just going to shuffle their items with their friends, the point becomes moot.. xD We need timers that can't be abusable, which is why something based on how long an item has been on an account won't work. And totally a big no-no for unique items (including "free" ones, as long as it is not strictly a raw material).

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1283433027' post='67564']

[i]If you wanted to use the items in conjuction with the item creators in game you could have the material burn up and be sent to a shop of sort with limited stock for player to buy the materials from with silver/coins[/i] - Really like that for standard raw materials - although might be problematic for the gathering guilds. If raw materials are only to come from guilds now then that makes this idea mostly defunct as the 'shop' already exists so to speak.

[/quote]
Probably, the shop can be set up as a coded system, in which most of the coins from the sales will go back to Mur (creating a sink - a plus point to market stability), and he might decide to give the guild a part of the sales if he wants. This is unless, of course, the gathering guilds were meant to be profit-based, in which the sales can just be done directly since the money doesn't need to go to the system.

[quote name='apophys' timestamp='1283433289' post='67565']
Of course, not every item needs to have a timer. Custom items should not; I agree. But it seems fair that items given automatically, for free, can have timers on them.
In hindsight I see I did not make it clear that timers should only be added to free-given items.
[/quote]
I would greatly disagree. Yes to raw mats, no to non raw-mats, even if they are gained for free. Most custom made items are tailor made to a role; people are not likely to trade them. If free, non-mat items are time based, they will have no value and it will kill trading.

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1283434916' post='67566']
It doesn't seem fair at all to me. The knock on effect of doing that is massive. For one thing you have just made most items worthless - if you can't hold onto it and it just disappears for anyone to get then why would anyone pay for it? If it has no 'real' action other than existing then it can't be actually used anyway in which case what is the point of having it at all now?

When you say for free, I assume you mean that the items didnt come from a wp, but many people have personalised items that came for free. Look at Asterdai's pirate chest example - once that gets onto a pirate account it could be wholely tied up with the individual and their role. Look at things like the staff of syndria which is wholely tied up with an individual character and which came free.

It's also completely unrealistic - not that that matters so much at all, but living in a world where everything I pick up and pocket disappears after a while seems pretty stupid to me even in a fantasy world.

Z
[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283437845' post='67568']
I personally don't like items BUT I find them very useful unless they have a timer on them.
I agree, something needs to be done about the "lost items" aka the one on the accounts that are abandoned. Maybe we can apply the same rules that apply to avys to the items: you haven't logged in for 6 months(or less in case of items)...your items get re-distributed. How? I fine the method used so far quite good: random (yes, ok...maybe with some checks as: this is an alt, he/she doesn't get one or this guy has 10 items already...).

And yes, maybe a cap should be applied to the number of items someone can hold.

However, I would put a timer on the PUBLIC items: the ones that were supposed to return to Wasp Totem and which never did...(those items are the worst prodigal sons I have ever seen!!!).
[/quote]
I dunno, but I personally think items should be different than avys. We can have avy shortages, which means some of the lost ones could be better used if they are re-distributed. If items are lost, we are never in a real shortage; new ones can always be made. And if someone had a custom item made for their role, I think it would be better to let them fade away along with their owner. As for raw mats, if they have timers, lost ones would return automatically.

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1283439645' post='67569']
Raw materials should have a shelf life, if not used should go back for redistribution. Random interval appearance at the Wasp's Totem might be a great equalizer there.
[/quote]
Yes, and with the new system, the raw mats can respawn at the gathering spots directly (or simpler, the regen timer for resources will stop when a certain number of mats is already on the realm, it will start to regen once some items has been used up).

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283440526' post='67571']
ps: I loove Kafuuka's idea about the puzzles (unless he makes the puzzles, or Metal Bunny )
[/quote]
No bunny puzzles please!

[Kyphis the Bard]

(I meant to post this last night, but for some reason it didn't post. Haven't read further than it was last night, at Udgards post after Mur's, so sorry if I repeat anything)

I think a combination of those actions would be best.

Identify the items that are both most simple and useful to MD (for example, a barrel, which anyone could use, or a book, or things like that) and have them on the automated (ie loan) system.

For slightly more specialized items (cooking knives, flutes, tome of magic knowledge, etc) assign them based on people who have shown an aptitude/interest in that role play.

For the more valuable specialized items (Violins, Sphere of Memories, and other artifact grade things) use the third option, of "buying" it via discussion.

[apophys]

(I really don't understand the apparent distinction between rare items and raw mats with respect to a timer. I find it more understandable, for example, for a glowing flower to have a shelf-life, than for 20kg of raw marble to have one.)

Think of the timer more as accidentally dropping an item than as having a shelf-life. The more items you have, the more likely it is for you to drop & lose one.


It is true that timed items would be wanted less than non-timed items, but they would not be trash, especially if they are usable (so trading would not be killed).
People who got one would be more willing to part with it if they know they probably can get a replacement, and there would be a lot of such people. Also, people who have several items would be more willing to sell one when the top one of the stack has a shortened timer.
Supply on the market would increase and demand would fall; therefore the price of items getting timed would fall a lot. But considering the current going prices of items (~7 gold?!), a low price is a very good thing; more people will be able to participate in trading.

Someone who is active and has only one item, and it's timed, will normally keep it. When the timer comes and he loses it; he is likely the most active person without an item, so he gets it back.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283440526' post='67571']
One thing about apophys' idea: I have no items (I don't like them so I shift them to poor No one) but I have a pretty big number in active days. This means that I will definitely get an item. I get the item and I, again, move it to No one. I am itemless but still with lots of active days. Unless you add some sort of counter, condition, whatever I will always get items.
[/quote]

If No One is considered to be your alt by the system, you wouldn't get anything. However, if he isn't, yes, it would work, but once No One has 8 items, the 8th would disappear in half a day (assuming a 2-month initial countdown). If he wants to hold 9, he would have to shift the top item to someone every 6 hours. Possible, but extremely stressful and thus highly improbable. There is no hard cap, but the most that can be practically held long-term is 7; nobody will shuffle items with friends every single day without missing one.

The system would put a practical maximum to how many items can be extorted out of it in this way; about 7 or 8 among 2 close friends, or about 13 among 3 close friends (3 or 4 items per person). There's a limit to how many distinct friends you have to abuse the system with, how well-coordinated they can be, and how much time they are willing to spend shifting items around without risking loss of an item.


Any more items No One will not possibly be able to hold. So, you give away your item to No One, you might get a new one, No One loses it and it goes to the most active itemless person. Repeat. In this way, you can shuffle items until you get one you like, but depending on how many items No One has, you might get the same one back many times over before getting a new one.


Large hoarding prevention by my proposition is pretty effective. If Shape Shifter or an alt of his were to buy one of these items, at his current item count, he'd lose it within 40 seconds. xD

(could the person who gave me neg rep please tell me what I said wrong, so that I can improve myself in future posts?)

Edited September 3, 2010 by apophys

[Chewett]

[quote name='apophys' timestamp='1283516663' post='67613']
(I really don't understand the apparent distinction between rare items and raw mats with respect to a timer. I find it more understandable, for example, for a glowing flower to have a shelf-life, than for 20kg of raw marble to have one.)
[/quote]

So what about the item "Wookie Slippers"? Do you feel that that should have a shelf life similar to a Glowing Flower or 20kg of raw marble?

It seems crazy for people to spend Wishpoints on personal and then have to "give" it away in case they lose it

(if anyone is wondering, Liberty and several others got these slippers for me from Mur)

[apophys]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1283532108' post='67625']
So what about the item "Wookie Slippers"? Do you feel that that should have a shelf life similar to a Glowing Flower or 20kg of raw marble?

It seems crazy for people to spend Wishpoints on personal and then have to "give" it away in case they lose it

(if anyone is wondering, Liberty and several others got these slippers for me from Mur)
[/quote]
My point was realistic - flowers decay, stone does not. So shelf-life makes no sense as a distinguishing factor to make a flower timer-less. What, then, distinguishes them? After all, any item can be utilized as a raw material from which to create another item. A book can be burned for heat just as a stick can. It's wasteful, yes, but there is no technical restriction.

What I see is Mur's stash having been collected as an event. That distinguishes these items from other ones to me.


The Glowing Flower specifically is not in Mur's possession. So I do not advocate it being timed. Likewise with your slippers. An item that you spent a wishpoint gaining, and that is important to you, you would not freely sell to Mur. So what's the problem with putting a timer on those that have been sold?

As I have stated already, it was never my intention to have ALL items with a timer, only those currently in Mur's possession that he wishes to deal out fairly. It is also not my intention to have all future items have a timer. Wishpoint-created items, for example, should not, and everyone agrees on this.
Wishpoint items being created with a timer would make no sense; it would be a waste of a wishpoint, and it would be unfair with respect to past WP-items.
But Mur's current stash can be considered not to have any connection to specific people; these items were traded willingly for coins or for other items; their owners sold the rights to the items. Pretending otherwise I see as simply being greedy.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1283532108' post='67625']
So what about the item "Wookie Slippers"? Do you feel that that should have a shelf life similar to a Glowing Flower or 20kg of raw marble?

It seems crazy for people to spend Wishpoints on personal and then have to "give" it away in case they lose it

(if anyone is wondering, Liberty and several others got these slippers for me from Mur)
[/quote]
I assure you, no wookies were harmed during the production.. I swear! *crosses fingers*