MP-Level as upgrade requirement

[Burns]

Due to once again increasing problems, i, again, want to propose an idea to stop alts from bashing on newbies.
Since GGG ceased, there are only minor problems with monstrous stats left, and people now take their massively aged, tokened and traded creatures and transfer them to mp3 to create new god accounts.

So now, instead of banning certain creatures from certain mps, i'd like to implement MP-level as an upgrade requirement for creatures in general.

The most important to me appear to be angiens, which should get requirement mp4 for level 3+ and mp5 for level 6+, drachorns, with mp4 for level 3+ and specially the rusts and reins, and probably other crit-boosters, with way steeper requirements, probably mp4 for lvl 2+ and mp5 for level 4+.

Existing creature of that kind would either need to be downgraded, or the holders put on the matching mp-level.

MAGIC-ctcs would need to be un-MAGIC-ed when they are transferred to an account that doesn't have the mp-requirement necessary to hold that creature, but only as far as the level is concerned. Like, if such is possible, they could well keep their age, xp and wins, as long as they get downgraded to the highest level accessible to the account in question.

Plus, Mur, i ask you personally to take a stand on that matter. Not the technical aspects or about starting to get nit-picky about what creatures should have what mp-requirement, but a general opinion on the matter of overly well equipped accounts in newbie-levels. I hate not knowing what's on your mind =P

[Chewett]

I like the idea, sounds like a really good one. Anything to stop people massing crits at mp3 and slaughtering real mp3s

[CrazyMike]

Totally on board with the idea.

Its motivation for low MPs to level up.

[Esmaralda]

I agree. I find this to be a great idea!

Edited December 29, 2010 by Esmaralda

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1293621839' post='76259']
Due to once again increasing problems, i, again, want to propose an idea to stop alts from bashing on newbies.
Since GGG ceased, there are only minor problems with monstrous stats left, and people now take their massively aged, tokened and traded creatures and transfer them to mp3 to create new god accounts.
[/quote]
Transferring creatures to an alt is considered alt abuse I thought?
An mp3 alt created with the purpose of bashing newbies would need either an accomplice who gives powerful things for free, or a large amount of coins and/or credits to trade with. Without MAGIC they'd still have to train those creatures. Afaik only a select amount of people can magicize, so that should be entirely under control. Trade logs can be monotored too.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1293633731' post='76273']
Transferring creatures to an alt is considered alt abuse I thought?
An mp3 alt created with the purpose of bashing newbies would need either an accomplice who gives powerful things for free, or a large amount of coins and/or credits to trade with. Without MAGIC they'd still have to train those creatures. Afaik only a select amount of people can magicize, so that should be entirely under control. Trade logs can be monotored too.
[/quote]
AFAIK alt abuse is making alts simply to benefit your main. Transferring creatures from mains to alts does not seem like alt abuse to me, unless it is done only to age them and send them back to the main.

[Burns]

We indeed do monitor the trade logs. And it is alt/main abuse imo, you use one old account to benefit the young.
The kind that gets banned immidiately is the alt-abuse Udgard talks about, like Ledah's coin alts. Other pretty abusive things seem to slip through.

Unfortunately, there is no tool to confirm their altness without going through Mur, even when everybody can see that they ARE alts. I regularly meet Chewie in the Log Review Room, the black sheep are known. But taking action against them is fairly hard, because the proof you need to ban them is inaccessible. And seriously, if we bothered Mur with such morons every time, he'd soon kill us all. xD

Edited December 29, 2010 by Burns

[Tipu]

But plz this rule should only apply for Alt accounts and not for other MP4 players who aren't Alts.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1293635657' post='76276']
AFAIK alt abuse is making alts simply to benefit your main. Transferring creatures from mains to alts does not seem like alt abuse to me, unless it is done only to age them and send them back to the main.
[/quote]
And who decides which alt is the 'main'?
Alt abuse is the valid term whenever one uses an alt to get an unfair advantage on another alt. 99% of the time the alt that benefits is the alt we would call the main, however it's not a requirement.

[dst]

[quote name='Tipu' timestamp='1293635806' post='76278']
But plz this rule should only apply for Alt accounts and not for other MP4 players who aren't Alts.
[/quote]


The rule should be applied to all mp3s and mp4s. No exceptions.

[No one]

one more thing:

If a creature requires MP to level ... when the MP increases, the EXTRA age/experience/wins for that creature should be reduced to the upgrade requirement. That way, the number of players that stay in MP3 to have the age for their angiens will be reduced.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

Clearly, passing aged crits onto your low level alts is an abuse, you arn't supposed to trade crits between alts - there is even a built in function to stop it that you have to go around. Don't kid a kidder.

If this is the problem then why isnt this being looked into instead of trying to change the entire system?

Z

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]If you use one of your accounts to benefit another of your accounts, it's alt abuse. Doesn't matter if it's the "main" account or not. You're still abusing the system to benefit.[/font][/color]

[I am Bored]

I would agree with most of the things on here, except the bit about MAGIC ctc's, because those are hard to get as it is, and should be allowed to be an exception to the rule. I must also dissagree with no one's suggestion, because lowering creatures like that would cause other problems as well, because you would be reducing the xp of an mp4, to far below the level of an mp3, and that would allow for even more building of powerful creatures at a lower mind power level.

[Shadowseeker]

It's about appropriate scaling..

And no, I just transfer a 10mil exp creat to mp3, which he can sac to lose 5mil exp?

I don't think that's a good deal...

[Kyphis the Bard]

And where does this idea leave Alliance members?

I'm not a fan of this idea. As most of you know, I have spent an exceptional amount of time at each of the MP levels (except two, that was about 3 days to try out illusions then hurry on), but I plan to be MP5 at the end of January so this plan wouldn't effect me.

So why do I dislike this idea?
Kafuuka.
Tipu.
Zleiphener.

Many other people who are not causing any sort of problem, and are quite happy to play all the OTHER parts of MD as MP4.

If this restriction had been in place from the day I had joined, I would not be an MP5 right now. I would, in fact not PLAY right now.
That's nothing about combat, but that if the first thing I saw was that "Oh, the game is restricting my choices and being like every other linear game, I guess its not what it advertised then..." I just wouldn't care.

Final point: THIS WON'T FIX ANYTHING IN THE LONG TERM. IT WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE.
Currently, the ceiling is anything available. Alts who know how to train and get around alt checks have those anything availables.
With this method, we find ourselves facing, surprise surprise, once again anything available, just a smaller selection. Everyone at each MP level has the same restriction, so the result is:
A-i) "Oh, there is no point training this creature more since that's its level cap, lets train other devastating creatures now."
A-ii) "Well, I might not be able to get a level 4 Drachorn, but neither can anyone else, so I'll still train mine to level 3 since it is effectively the same."
B) You are restricting ritual diversity, meaning that you are re-introducing the problem you complained about with MP3/4 not knowing how to fight in preparation for the next MP level. "Oh look, water Daimon/Knator/Elemental/Bird/Angien is almost useless like this, so I might as well sacc it and never train one again"

[Chewett]

[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' timestamp='1293655035' post='76314']
A-i) "Oh, there is no point training this creature more since that's its level cap, lets train other devastating creatures now."
[/quote]

They will be merely restricted to creatures that normal people will more likely to have.

[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' timestamp='1293655035' post='76314']
A-ii) "Well, I might not be able to get a level 4 Drachorn, but neither can anyone else, so I'll still train mine to level 3 since it is effectively the same."
[/quote]

Come come, Dont be foolish, You can clearly see that if Drachorns are only got by mp3's whome are alts. there are few/no real mp3's who have attained drachorns in this early age. Also, if they can only train it to a more limited level, they wil be weaker and more easily killed by normal creatures. It makes no difference to competeing alts BUT a large difference to the new mp3's. I TOTALLY diasagree with this point as it is a foolish point.

[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' timestamp='1293655035' post='76314']
B) You are restricting ritual diversity, meaning that you are re-introducing the problem you complained about with MP3/4 not knowing how to fight in preparation for the next MP level. "Oh look, water Daimon/Knator/Elemental/Bird/Angien is almost useless like this, so I might as well sacc it and never train one again"
[/quote]

I disagree with this again. Normal mp3's who train are not able to get angiens, and birds are hard to obtain. If you train normally, mp3's will move on before leveling up too many creatuers, if the limits are put in effectively then a normal mp3 wont be effected

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1293655663' post='76315']
Normal mp3's who train are not able to get angiens, and birds are hard to obtain. If you train normally, mp3's will move on before leveling up too many creatuers, if the limits are put in effectively then a normal mp3 wont be effected
[/quote]
For a cheap mp3 geared quest, angiens, birds and loreroot creatures make a lot of sense to give out. So if you train normally as an mp3 interested in more than just grinding, you should be able to get those creatures with a small amount of luck.

I would have thought Kyphis' point is quite clear: no matter how many restrictions you put in place, people who have a tried and tested training scheme will be more powerful than real mp3s who still need to go through trial and error. Burns also requested us not to nitpick about what creatures should have which nerfs... I am quite certain he did this because he thinks that is the Achilles heel of this proposal. Only if we want to make an analogy with Achilles, his mother should have bathed him in the river of sheer and utter weakness, so that only his heel does not grant a mortal wound if someone touches it.

[Burns]

By no means do i want to discourage general population to be picky about the requirements.
I just asked Mur to take a general stand. Because i want to know if he finds such account inappropriate or not.

I am indeed fairly certain that i won't be able to find a non-alt mp3 with a drachorn, or an angien over lvl 2. You're right that angiens make nice quest rewards, but they most definitely won't reach lvl 3 on a plain, normal mp3 account, simply due to the age requirement on them.

Other than that, no, Kyphis, restricting creatures doesn't make things worse. I have done serious combat for a long, long time, and there is very little in MD that can't be beaten with strategy. But some things, like big angiens or boosted drachorns, require advanced creatures and/or high stats i haven't yet seen on any normal mp4 accounts.
I neither want to restrict diversity, nor collectors, but it seems that very many people lack the common sense some show. It hurts a lot to restrict all over the abuse of a few, but apparently there is no other way to stop a selected few of abusing the mp-system.

I would, by lots, prefer to ban the accounts that receive the monstrous creatures of older accounts. But it seems that this is not an option in the current set of rules, unless it's flawlessly proven that the accounts in question are alts. If you don't believe me, ask the Wookie, he knows them just as well.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1293655663' post='76315']
Come come, Dont be foolish, You can clearly see that if Drachorns are only got by mp3's whome are alts. there are few/no real mp3's who have attained drachorns in this early age. Also, if they can only train it to a more limited level, they wil be weaker and more easily killed by normal creatures. It makes no difference to competeing alts BUT a large difference to the new mp3's. I TOTALLY diasagree with this point as it is a foolish point.
[/quote]
A) Obviously I am using Drachorns as an example, you can replace it with any creature you feel like imposing restrictions on, it amounts to the same thing
B) I had 5, only one of which I got from the MD Shop. I have also had 2 GG on my permanent MP3 alt, both gained completely independent of any other account. I know I'm hardly normal, but if I can get two Drachorns in a month at MP3 it isn't as hard as you seem to think it is.

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1293664614' post='76324']
Other than that, no, Kyphis, restricting creatures doesn't make things worse. I have done serious combat for a long, long time, and there is very little in MD that can't be beaten with strategy. But some things, like big angiens or boosted drachorns, require advanced creatures and/or high stats i haven't yet seen on any normal mp4 accounts.
[/quote]
That's precisely my point when I say that it will cause more damage.
Assume a situation where two combatants both use 0% influence, no tokens are involved, and no combat bugs influence the combat (In other words, a "clean" fight). In this instance, no matter the ritual of Combatant A, Combatant B can present a counter ritual, to which Combatant A can provide another counter ritual, and so on.
Restricting the access to creature stages also restricts access to strategems. Unless devised like this from the begining or having some method that actively prevents people from staying at the early stages, to prevent rituals that have no "clean" counter existing would takes months, possibly even a year or more, to do. This leave us with two more considerations.

Firstly, rituals without a "clean" counter may have a "standared" (High stat or Tokens influence) counter. The problem here is that you will either turn MD into a game where you MUST grind at early MP levels to prepare yourself properly for MP5, or you will constantly loose combat slowly accrueing useless experience and approaching stat damage from the few "big fish" who use these rituals, or into a game where you MUST buy from the MD shop (tokens) to survive (whether you have the patience to invest in free credits or just pay to play, either way more people will quite from this as well)

Secondly, it is entirely likely that certain rituals will only be counterable with creatures that are a higher level than is available. Consider the variable abilities of Heretics, Trees, Medusa, and Minge de Foc across all their levels. Then you also have things like freeze aura, and the low availability of creatures with Anti-freeze aura (thankfully, the Hollow Warrior remedies this specific situation, but as before, these are examples for consideration and not the focus of what I am saying)

________
All of this said, while I don't like this idea because it will not fix anything, I do agree that something must be done to fix all of this. I just think this is the wrong way entirely since it will cause far more problems than it will fix (ie, none), and will take too much work to be effective (months to years).

As you said Burns, and I agree, banning would be the best method (simplicity/effectiveness), however the amount of evidence required to be fair is currently highly prohibitive.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Kyphis the Bard

[Tipu]

But in reality it should be other way round. Atleast one Maxed angien and a dragon as a requirement for Advancing to MP5 hehe

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1293664614' post='76324']
I am indeed fairly certain that i won't be able to find a non-alt mp3 with a drachorn, or an angien over lvl 2. You're right that angiens make nice quest rewards, but they most definitely won't reach lvl 3 on a plain, normal mp3 account, simply due to the age requirement on them.
[/quote]
Because ever quest creator gives creatures that are only one week old? Or is it because people are more prone to tell someone who wonders if they should level up, to do it as quick as possible?

[HeHelpedMe]

I wasn't supposed to post any message in this section again, but... I still care about what happens to MD so here goes.
I strongly dislike the idea of that kind of requirement.
I don't have any alts myself and I'm not going to create one ever. I have only my main account and that's really enough.
And that should be enough for most of the players. In my opinion, the true problem which leads to alt abuse is the existence of alts.
Seriously, how many alts were actually meant for creating another character for role playing needs? 10 percent? Doubt it, probably even less. All the rest is used for storing additional creatures, goofing around and for all kinds of so called "alt abuse".
And now you're planning to mess up the gameplay even more with those restrictions. So me and many other players at mp3 and mp4 levels, who don't have alts and don't abuse any MD rules will have to face the consequences. All the bored mp5s who send their drachs and other monstrosities to their mp3/mp4 alts will be fine, as their mp5 main won't face any restrictions.
I'm at mp4 and don't want to progress to mp5. I have few Angiens which were obtained legally and I put a lot of time and effort into training them. And now me and other players who don't have any alts are going to be punished with severe creature downgrade because of abuse done by others?
Excellent...
I've noticed that most of the ideas and changes are only mp5 friendly.
Mp3 and mp4 just need to quickly get to mp5 and be farmed and grinded into cat food by the "vets".

[Udgard]

[quote name='HeHelpedMe' timestamp='1294285609' post='76923']
I wasn't supposed to post any message in this section again, but... I still care about what happens to MD so here goes.
I strongly dislike the idea of that kind of requirement.
I don't have any alts myself and I'm not going to create one ever. I have only my main account and that's really enough.
And that should be enough for most of the players. In my opinion, the true problem which leads to alt abuse is the existence of alts.
Seriously, how many alts were actually meant for creating another character for role playing needs? 10 percent? Doubt it, probably even less. All the rest is used for storing additional creatures, goofing around and for all kinds of so called "alt abuse".
And now you're planning to mess up the gameplay even more with those restrictions. So me and many other players at mp3 and mp4 levels, who don't have alts and don't abuse any MD rules will have to face the consequences. [b]All the bored mp5s who send their drachs and other monstrosities to their mp3/mp4 alts will be fine, as their mp5 main won't face any restrictions.[/b]
I'm at mp4 and don't want to progress to mp5. I have few Angiens which were obtained legally and I put a lot of time and effort into training them. And now me and other players who don't have any alts are going to be punished with severe creature downgrade because of abuse done by others?
Excellent...
I've noticed that most of the ideas and changes are only mp5 friendly.
[b]Mp3 and mp4 just need to quickly get to mp5 and be farmed and grinded into cat food by the "vets".[/b]
[/quote]
In response to the bolded statements: I believe the reason the requirements was proposed works two ways: to prevent alts to get monstrous creatures, and to discourage non-alts to stay too long. Alt or no alt, no one is supposed to stay on mp3/mp4 for prolonged time just to get strongest there. MP5 is the fighting stage, people are allowed to stay long on mp3/mp4, but it is not meant to be a fighting stage. People who stay there for prolonged time mostly has two reasons: either they are not focused on the combat aspect of MD, or they want to be kings of mp3/4. The first one, I don't think will object much to the proposed requirements, and for the second: mp3/4 is not a combat stage and you're not supposed to stay there with godlike creatures/stats to pound on newbies anyways.

There is the third one: people who stay there to prepare for the mp5 jungle, but then again that is the reason for the requirements. You're supposed to stay mp4 just for a while, to age/upgrade some creatures to prepare for mp5. Once you've aged your creatures, go and move on to mp5. And no, people are not supposed to wait for their angiens to have max age before going mp5..

I think lately there has been to many illusions of "mp5s/vets only wanting to get more people to move up so they can pound them". The thing is, staying mp3/mp4 for eternity won't help people prepare to fight the "vets". People at mp5 has access to much faster stat growth than an mp3/4 can ever hope for, so the longer people stay there, the wider the gap between power they will have.

And really, what can those so called vets do to pound on fresh mp5s that has actual consequence to those fresh ones? Combat losses are needed for balance, and tree rits easily prevent damage to your main army.

[HeHelpedMe]

More restrictions in MD coming up then...
MD is becoming more and more focused on literally forcing players to get to mp5 instead of letting them enjoy it their own way.
One thing is sure: no matter what you do, you won't be able to force people to play MD.
I'm not going to get to mp5 anyway. If I'm forced to do so against my will I'll simply stop playing MD (like many others did). I guess that I wouldn't be the only person doing so.
But now I'm just going to get rid of my younger Angiens and only keep the oldest as a collector's value.