Creativity

[Rumi]

Big thanks to Udgard for explanation of RP Reality Requirement (even though it was apparently quoted from another thread).

[Curiose]

Anonymous quote of which should open all your bloody minds.

[quote]I can't believe this quest is even being questioned on the forums. It was a side quest created for entertainment, as roleplay used to be. I believe that most of you don't even understand what roleplay is enough to insult it, yet you still do. It seems to be a trend in the human population to destroy what one does not understand.

I listen to the veterans gripe about no one creating decent quests, and no one creating anything new and interesting, and even entertaining. Have none of you stopped to question that perhaps this isn't possible with the way the game mentality is currently? We take the secrets of what is what and hide them away, fearing that someone might believe that they've "won the game" if they know of them. The people that DO know them don't create anything, and more often than not, they are the ones who complain.
Since the days of RPC, the ridiculous secretive mentality hasn't changed. Only those who have patted Muratus the right way know about what MD is supposed to mean, how it's supposed to work, and how to go about getting what they want from it. It's the same favoritism as it was then, except now people don't display that favoritism with dots beside their name, they simply display it with a cocky- haughty attitude. [/quote]

What is wrong with you people?

Even NOW you can't stop bickering about what was right and wrong. Yet, another issue has been displayed in this message above. You all hoarde secrets because you can't damn do anything to educate the younger people. When I participated in this quest, as little as I did, I never knew about the taint until it was brought up in a discussion with Shara. And you want to know WHY the people are so ignorant? Not only because you hoarde it-- but because no one will bother sharing anything about the past, because of fear for spoilers, bloated egos, and constant complaining, nagging, and jamming EVERYTHING down people's throats. And because the beloved AL is gone,you all think you can't do crap.

So sue me if I am being Nasty. But someone needs to say it. I am tired of you all being nothing but a lot of nasty little finger pointers, suck ups, and egoists.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300162977' post='80663']
Big thanks to Udgard for explanation of RP Reality Requirement (even though it was apparently quoted from another thread).
[/quote]
You are welcome, and it's actually quoted from the Announcement (can't remember if Mur did a post on it as well).

[Sharazhad]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1300162280' post='80662']
Shara, I think there's a reason why some people who did not bother to take part is the one creating a huge fuss. It's simple: they do not approve of what you do. If they don't approve of what you do, there's no reason for them to join, right?

I agree that using black water and liquid dust without complete knowledge on what they are is a bad idea. Using them means you will need to RP what they do/what effect they have, and without knowledge on what they do, chances are you're gonna give off the wrong thing. Using the taint, on the other hand, is much more acceptable since they are not an inherent part of MD. They are made by players, and modification by players to a certain extent is acceptable IMHO, as long as the original creator does not mind.

Now, one problem is that the whole situation is not even clear.
Who is in charge of/started this storyline? Mya? Firs? You?
What is being used in the RP? Black water? Liquid Dust? The Taint?

From Mya's comment black water, liquid dust and the taint was never going to be used. Yet throughout the whole "quest" there are lots of people who think they are being used. Inevitably, you are going to get a lot of people who won't bother joining it because they do not agree with the use of the first two. Even if now it is cleared (by Mya - but again, I do not know for sure who is in charge of this whole thing) that they were never part of it.

And then, there is the part where Loreroot is said to be flooded. How is this not breaking game mechanics? It's like saying a meteor fell on marind bell and now the whole place is scorched with hellfire. Mechanic wise, there is this little thing called RP Reality Requirement. Having a flood might be acceptable for 2-3 people, but when you want to do something that affects a lot of people, then the requirements are hard.

Now I think this would answer the question below as well:

If it had gained enough support, I think it the whole thing can certainly turn valid. But if there is so much opposition and relatively little support, then the opposite is true.

And I would also like to remind that MD, AFAIK, has never been designed as a true sandbox, freeform RP platform. If anything, MD even said at one time (might still do) is a unique world, different with others where you won't find the standard fantasy game things like demons or orcs. Something with its own unique setting. It can function as one now, with RP reality requirement telling you that you can do anything just between limited number of people. But when it comes to the mass, there are limits to what you can and can't do.
[/quote][i]

[color="#2e8b57"]Udgard.
The Sludge and floods was a little brain child that originally started with a discussion between Mya and myself. We agreed that very little RP was taking place within the realm, and we wanted to create a platform where people can do their own spin off RP's, and still keep strong story-line. Mya and I were both well aware of the effects of interfering with game mechanics and came up with the idea of a natural disaster. Quite frankly I found it more plausible that an earthquake can cause a flood in Loreroot than a meteor falling out of the the sky and setting Marind Bell on fire, or a spaceship crashing into the house of LD!.[/color][/i][color="#2e8b57"]
[i]
I did not just RP *Shara created a flood in Loreroot* TA-DA theres a flood. I am well aware of the RP reality requirements, but seeing how few people were actually interested in roleplay at, it was near impossible to gather a group of 30 people. There were four people around Raven's Peace at the time. Lintara, Sunfire, Darigan and Myself. The whole story of how the flood occurred was posted on the forums [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8986-sludge-and-floods/"]http://magicduel.inv...dge-and-floods/[/url] and Darigan had a story going on his PAL (Player Adventure Log) found on his profile page. So this RP was in no way hidden from the general populous of MD. I had also set up the discussions page where people could discuss the goings on..http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8991-sludge-and-floods-discussions/page__pid__80615__st__20#entry80615 If there was an issue about what you didn't like how the sludge was created back then, why did you raise it on the discussion forum?

Soon after the RP of the flood, Mya suggested that even tho the water level subsided, in a natural disaster there are always side effects dirt and debris and she came up with the idea of the sludge. During this time I was in constant communication with Firsan (as he is king, he should at least be aware of what we were up to) and some one (cant remember exactly) suggested that the black sludge was Black Water and/or Liquid Dust. I brought this to Firsan's attention to which he responded: " That's necessary involvement of game mechanics steer away from that " The idea of BW and LD was immediately squashed and I have no idea who continued with that. We brainstormed the idea of a mutated strain of the taint, as it seemed plausible and very doable at the time.

The taint itself would not be viable as it needs Granos to activate it, but a mutated strain is. Obviously this is where the shyte hit the fan because everyone went into a total hoo-ha over this. During this time, RL had stepped in and unfortunately Mya and Darigan were left to carry this out. She did what she felt was best for her and the RP.[/i]

[i] So yes; BW, LD and the ORIGINAL taint was never gonna be used. I wanted to create a mutated strain of the taint, which would of course have different side effects and outcomes. I was never given the opportunity to actually voice this, because the trolls raised their voices and clubs smashed this before I even had a chance to respond.

Z, Udgard I can see where I went wrong on this. It needed more thought and planning, and little groups to carry out the story line to cause a real reaction. I was desperate for a little action in this game and more player involvement and did what I thought was best at the time.

Rumi as far as I see, it is not a question of stifling creativity , because one can do pretty much whatever one wishes on MD, as so much as it was following RP protocol in terms of fluff, reality requirements and mechanics, getting the numbers to back you up and telling the trolls of MD to piss off when they raise their clubs and voices and stomp on everything.

Thank you Curiose for your posts on the discussion and panel, for the post here and I agree with you 100% within certain circles there seems to a be the "Crabs in a basket" mentality. (buts that another discussion for another time)

And you know what, say what you want because at the end of the day, Mya and I did a lot more than most to try and create a story/adventure in MD!
[/i]

[i]Edited for grammar and that weird double post.
[/i][/color]

Edited March 15, 2011 by Sharazhad

[Firsanthalas]

Here's my opinion on the matter.

Mya and Sharazhad had an idea for a story. They consulted me about it. I told them that anything that involved something particular to MD itself was taboo and not allowed. So no blackwater or liquid dust.
In the meantime, some people 'roleplayed' 'their' solution/cause. I.E. They made up whatever shit they wanted and justified it.
I am also going to point out that NOBODY (other than Mya and Sharazhad) made any attempt to speak to me on the matter.
I find that really amusing and disappointing at the same time. I find it amusing to think that people are of the opinion that they can go off and make assumptions about a land and not consult the king. It's the same as making assumptions about something like liquid dust, branding them to be true and yet not consulting Mur.
I also find it amusing about how the 'experts' in RP love to show everyone else how it's done.
The way I see it, in MD, RP falls into two categories.
The first is RP that has an impact on MD itself. This might involve someone doing some RP that leads to a new creature, or a new location being opened, or a realisation about something in MD. Anything along these lines has to involve Mur at some point.
The second is something that affects the people in MD, but not MD itself. The sludge was an attempt at the second.
You can label this as 'fluff'RP if you like and you can dismiss it. However, I feel that is ignorant. The people in MD are supposed to be able to influence MD. And while we don't always influence MD itself, we do influence people within MD all the time. It may be a simple as a kind or nasty word. It doesn't need to be started from an RP basis at all. But here it is folks, the plain simple truth.
People in MD think that they can do whatever they want and that they are always right. 'Oh, I'll RP it, so that makes it right'.
You can't make an assumption and claim it true about MD, just because you RP'd it, or had a dream, or drank 50 pints and had an epiphany while getting your stomach pumped.
So, people by and large don't try to do that anymore. Yet, when someone else tries to create something, this principle goes out the window.
If you want to do something involving MD directly, you need to refer and consult with Mur. If you want to be involved in an RP started by a person, you need to refer and consult with him/her/them. If you don't intend to participate, you should keep your nose out of it.

Yes, some people started harping on about some things in MD like liquid dust, but that was never going to be allowed and anyone that did was told they were wrong.
I think it shows a staggering amount of ignorance and arrogance on the part of some people that they felt the need to step in with 'can't do' and 'don't do'. In my book that is not helping in any shape or form.
It's very easy to sit on your lofty throne and tell others how it's done, while not actually 'doing' yourself.

Right, I'm off to eat that leg of pork now.

(edited spelling errors)

Edited March 15, 2011 by Firsanthalas

[Rumi]

Thank you Firsanthalas for your post.

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1300189291' post='80678']
Mya and Sharazhad had an idea for a story. They consulted me about it. I told them that anything that involved something particular to MD itself was taboo and not allowed. So no blackwater or liquid dust.
In the meantime, some people 'roleplayed' 'their' solution/cause. I.E. They made up whatever shit they wanted and justified it.
I am also going to point out that NOBODY (other than Mya and Sharazhad) made any attempt to speak to me on the matter.
[/quote]

In regards to the specific event of the Loreroot sludge, I assume that Firsanthalas is referring to my extended roleplay and post in the sludge and floods discussion where I made up whatever solution I wanted and justified it. Just to be clear, I was in contact with Mya Celestia throughout the two weeks I was inside the Oak Fort and she considered my solution acceptable. I assumed that she had spoken with Sharazhad and I didn't even think to contact Firsanthalas or ask if she had mentioned my solution to Firsanthalas. I assumed that Mya's approval was all I needed and it was only after speaking with Mya that I posted to the discussion forum and began the part of the roleplay involving an understanding and a solution.


[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1300189291' post='80678']
I find that really amusing and disappointing at the same time. I find it amusing to think that people are of the opinion that they can go off and make assumptions about a land and not consult the king. It's the same as making assumptions about something like liquid dust, branding them to be true and yet not consulting Mur.

The first [category] is RP that has an impact on MD itself. This might involve someone doing some RP that leads to a new creature, or a new location being opened, or a realisation about something in MD. Anything along these lines has to involve Mur at some point.
.
If you want to do something involving MD directly, you need to refer and consult with Mur. If you want to be involved in an RP started by a person, you need to refer and consult with him/her/them. If you don't intend to participate, you should keep your nose out of it.
[/quote]


This is actually news to me and in some way clears things up quite a bit. I have been under the impression that I was out there in the realm wandering and roleplaying and being watched. I thought that if I did something that drew enough attention and participation, that it could influence the land or game or whatever elements were involved.

It makes sense to contact the land king about a roleplay in his land. With regards to Mur, I must admit I have been hesitant to make any contact, as I thought it might be stepping out of line. From most indications, I assumed Mur kept pretty busy and did not like to be contacted by the random ants in his maze. From what Firsanthalas says, it seems he would rather appreciate thoughtful and creative contact rather than ignoring it.

I have generally opted out of forum PM in favor of game PM, but I can see that forum PM really plays a critical role in this process. I won't hesitate to run my ideas past people using forum PM from now on.


Perhaps another simple useful solution that would be an elaborated set of quest development steps (maybe pinned in the adventures and quests forum) that anyone could consult in the process of developing a quest.

Example:

I: Create quest idea
II: Consult involved players
III: Consult some non-involved veterans for counsel
IV: Consult land king if involving a specific land
V: Consult with Mur if involving deeper mechanics or new developments
VI: Get needed items/materials made (I still don't know how this happens)
VII: Post quest to adventures and quests section

Perhaps even listing on the adventures and quests page some people consulted could give legitimacy to those who would question it.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Rumi

[Firsanthalas]

[quote]In regards to the specific event of the Loreroot sludge, I assume that Firsanthalas is referring to my extended roleplay and post in the sludge and floods discussion where I made up whatever solution I wanted and justified it.[/quote]

Nope.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1300138908' post='80650']
What pisses me off is that people would stomp on the RP putting all sorts of do's and and donts and then do nothing to contribute. That stifles creativity - because you just say what we can not do and then dont bother offering a bloody solution!!! I dont want to do another RP or take part in another RP after this. Why? because: 1) No one gives a flying cucktoos tail feather 2) It always lands up on the shoulders of one or two people that are always carrying things. 3) People are always giving out about not doing anything and then when someone does do something it gets BLANTANTLY IGNORED. If Mur wrote "Loreroot is in flood" in the moodpanel, I would bet everything I have that most people would go scrambling to Loreroot to investigate. Have some one else do it, and its useless information. Kafuuka, My lack of contribution in this story was not by choice - unfortunately Real Life does factor in somewhat, and Maebius how was I to stand back and watch for an "avalanche" during a developing story? Was I aware that Rumi was gonna post this?[/quote]
This is actually one of my points. You are not Mur. Mur is the only person who can 'wish' things into being in MD. Everybody else has to work for it and even then they don't work as hard on the game as Mur does. Some people manage to succeed at doing something big sometimes. I've witnessed or dreamed (which seems very non parsimonious) Z both succeeding and failing at least once. I've seen him get annoyed because all the people that care were unavailable due to real life and nobody else bothering to listen to him. Through his announcements and comments it seems to me even Mur has failed at things before. I'd be more surprised if he never did though.

What caused not enough people caring? Maybe we don't like you, maybe we're antisocial people, maybe we didn't have time, maybe somebody instigated us against you, maybe you didn't try hard enough. Most likely it is all of the previous and then some more factors combined. You're old enough to have 'enemies' in MD (for the record I'm in the no time to care group) so probably at least one person openly said he didn't like your quest idea. So what? Others have managed before, under the same conditions, and if you stop because of one failure, you have only yourself to blame. Not MD community as a whole, certainly not Mur and not me voicing this opinion right now.

Also I think it is a very bad idea to do a quest out of frustration. Good ideas come to me when I'm in a good mood. A good mood certainly is necessary for me to cope with people seemingly purposely doing everything wrong all the time when trying my quest, clicky script being similar but not exactly script languages I know, cheaters, sore losers, real life preventing me from fixing things timely and disappointing people by waiting two months for a reply mail etc.

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1300179029' post='80676']
I did not just RP *Shara created a flood in Loreroot* TA-DA theres a flood. I am well aware of the RP reality requirements, but seeing how few people were actually interested in roleplay at, it was near impossible to gather a group of 30 people. There were four people around Raven's Peace at the time. Lintara, Sunfire, Darigan and Myself. The whole story of how the flood occurred was posted on the forums [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8986-sludge-and-floods/"]http://magicduel.inv...dge-and-floods/[/url] and Darigan had a story going on his PAL (Player Adventure Log) found on his profile page. So this RP was in no way hidden from the general populous of MD. I had also set up the discussions page where people could discuss the goings on..http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8991-sludge-and-floods-discussions/page__pid__80615__st__20#entry80615 If there was an issue about what you didn't like how the sludge was created back then, why did you raise it on the discussion forum?[/quote]
Quite simply because people seemed to blame us for the quest not succeeding. I didn't like it back then but there's other quest ideas I don't like either and once that post was made, it wouldn't have been helpful to say 'this idea is crap' neither in public nor in private. You can't go back and undo an announcement on RP whether it is fluff or not. If other people had more positive opinion and more time to contribute, why would I shoot it down? Plus as I said before, you had support of someone with some authority, which made it less absurd. Just not enough to convince me and apparently most others.

I don't tend to be very nice on the forum, but I do try to be informative and helpful. I suppose I have a bit of a teacher mentality, even though I've never worked as a teacher. In that spirit: Curiose please look up the word irony. I'm not certain if you are addressing specific people on the forum but it is not like you don't point fingers and shout. No secrets are being kept relevant to this topic anyway. - Except that I don't like the PAL either. It's a horrible acronym that has way to many other meanings. -

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300161957' post='80661']
For instance, how do we know that the house of liquid dust cannot be entered?
[/quote]

How do you know that it can be? You miss the point I was making, maybe due to the example I used as it isn’t a perfect one. Let me try another tack on what I was meaning. A building usually has an interior, either that or it is under construction. So it would make sense that a building would be capable of either being completed or being entered. If I stand outside a house waving my arms and saying look at me I’m inside the house wheee!...well...I’m not, no matter how many times I say I am. If I instead tried to find a way to enter maybe I would get in...if I tried to find a way to complete the construction then maybe the build would get finished. Has it been proved you can enter before? Maybe, maybe not, try to find out – and no, you don’t always have to ask a vet, there is more than enough information around to find out without asking anyone. Try the MD Archives for one.

I’m not saying you can’t wave your arms and shout wheeee. Sometimes that might work. Mostly it doesn’t. Fun? Yes, definitely. Realistic and world changing? Probably not.

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300161957' post='80661']
He also mentioned tools and materials. I must admit that bringing this up makes me feel like a complete noob, but I don't understand how inventory items work. I know Grido keeps glass and cement (or something like that) for work on the lighthouse in GG. Where did he get them? How does he use them? In the sludge roleplay, the Onyx Shard was a physical item which I even had in my own possession at one point during a conversation with Darigan and Mya. Where did it come from? Does its existence make the roleplay legitimate?
[/quote]

Ok so here is a good example of where some history could help. A long time ago a player called Renavoid wanted to get some rooms in the archive building completed. At the time a number of what are called ‘raw materials’ such as wood and clay etc had been randomly distributed across MD. He made a quest whereby the community got involved, collected materials and set about for weeks and weeks role-playing building the structure. What happened? We got some more rooms.

No you don’t HAVE to have items, that wasn’t what I was saying. I was saying, make it realistic. If the items really exist then using them adds to the realism. If the items don’t exist or you cannot get hold of one then role-play making it and then use it.

How do items come to exist? Either they randomly appear, they appear due to your actions, or you have a crafter create them for you by paying a wish point. Of course you can also trade items and sometimes they are given as prizes etc etc.

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300161957' post='80661']
The veterans have the sway to turn a snowball into an avalanche, so we must assume that their assumptions are correct based on their experience and ability to work the mechanics.
[/quote]

It isn’t just the veterans who have the sway to do that. Anyone can do that. Veterans might find it easier, but that is only because they know more people who can help them. Some new players are capable of having much greater sway than a veteran.

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300161957' post='80661']
I started this thread specifically looking for solutions in addition to opinions. Z and other veterans insist that we need to dig deeper and ask the questions.
[/quote]

Can I just make the point here that I don’t insist on anything. I suggest you do it, I certainly do not insist. I have no issue with you doing whatever you want to do so long as it doesn’t escalate to the point of everyone thinking an apple is a banana. If you want to think an apple is a banana, I will leave you to it – but if you ask me I will tell you it’s not and if you start creating a banana cult I will call the rescue crew and drag anyone I can kicking and screaming out of it – and you can kick and scream at me all you like, that’s fine. You will very rarely see me actively intervene and try to stop someone doing something. I may comment, but that’s what a forum (among other things) is for.

As for the vet bashing going on, as a vet let me say that it’s not like I haven’t already spent years and years creating for this community and here stand the new folk, bashing me over the head with a stick for being a veteran and taking a step back. All veterans were new players once, we arn’t still here because we threw our rattles out of the pram, and we arn’t here because we gave Mur a ‘pat’. You arn’t being nasty you are being stupid. I quite happily talk and discuss with anyone who stops by Bob and wants to chat, if I was haughty I’d just ignore the lot of you and I definitely wouldn’t be writing in this thread.

Z

[Rumi]

Thank you again Z for your comments.

I am still a little confused about buildings and scenes. First you gave the example of the House of Liquid Dust and then the example of the Archives renovation.

I guess my question is how do I know if something simply has no entrance whatsoever or if I simply cannot access a place because I don't know the clickie code, or haven't been granted access, but others can enter it. This also goes for a location that is under construction.

For example, how did Ren know that Mur hadn't completed the archives. Did they display the same "under construction" message as the Gazebo of Chaos?

As far as places I cannot enter, but seem like I should be able to, an example I think of is Champion's Dome. I can see a door and I assume there's an inside I could find at some point, but when I stand outside and wave my arms, it doesn't appear any different than the house of liquid dust. Other examples that come to mind are clickies at the entrance to accursed growth or drachorn lair or marind balcony. I believe those places can all be entered, but I have never seen anyone inside them.

I apologize if I sound ignorant. Is there a way to determine if places have interiors besides just asking other people?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300257204' post='80727']
For example, how did Ren know that Mur hadn't completed the archives. Did they display the same "under construction" message as the Gazebo of Chaos?As far as places I cannot enter, but seem like I should be able to, an example I think of is Champion's Dome. I can see a door and I assume there's an inside I could find at some point, but when I stand outside and wave my arms, it doesn't appear any different than the house of liquid dust. Other examples that come to mind are clickies at the entrance to accursed growth or drachorn lair or marind balcony. I believe those places can all be entered, but I have never seen anyone inside them.I apologize if I sound ignorant. Is there a way to determine if places have interiors besides just asking other people?
[/quote]

The whole right wing was missing! You could go inside and look into the right wing, and go outside and look at the back door from the right wing, but you couldn't go in.

Research can be used to determine if it has an interior. I could list a number of players who have been inside the house of liquid dust at one point or another, in the AL and not (if i remember correctly). The AL is usually a starting point to do some research, from you you can tell people have been inside drachorns cave and on Marinds balcony(not sure about second one, one part of AL happened there, but not sure if that was documented)

You could look back and see that angiens island could be crossed to (at the point when it was closed to most) and that there was something out in the middle of the lake.

Archives are a good point, spend some time looking around them. Asking people just dredges up the archives which they have researched, or even more helpful remember seeing.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1300257204' post='80727']
Other examples that come to mind are clickies at the entrance to accursed growth or drachorn lair or marind balcony. I believe those places can all be entered, but I have never seen anyone inside them.
[/quote]
The balcony can be entered and many people know the way to get there. It should not be hard to figure out who can, just by observation. In Necrovion there is a lot of places only few people have access to and getting access is trickier imo.

Regardless of someone having had access to any place at some point in time, what matters in RP is whether you have access at the time you are playing. If you don't know whether someone had and didn't bother to find out, then by the snowball analogy, you really shouldn't try throwing snowballs uphill.