Vaul

A very nice analysis, well said. So the "beatification" (shall we say haha) of the dojo is in progress. It is to be made mandatory, in due time? Ok, I'm satisfied

Actually I wrote ".[i]..The player took only brief notice of my [b]comments[/b]...[/i]", and you wrote [i]"...but I dare say that a [u]single[/u] [b]comment[/b] in the chat..."[/i]. Singular/plural. You can easily get confused

Yes, your division corresponds with my understanding of the matter. Here's a bit more of legal theory, I think it's useful in the development process... A system can be categorized by defining its elements. Vital elements of a rule/obligatory system are: - Who defines the rules and their transgressions? - Who enforces those rules? - How are the transgressors punished by the rule's enforcers? (there's much more but this will do for our discussion, the rest if of a more scientific nature ) So how does this apply to our discussion? 1) [b]The game rules[/b] (set by the creator) are mandatory for all players, and transgression is punished by officials, whose authority and methods are derived from the game "law". 2) [b]The society rules[/b] (set by a bigger or smaller group of players) are not mandatory, and can only be tolerated by the officials if they don't interfere with the game rules. Based on consensus, it operates solely through the participation of willing participants. Transgression of these rules can be punished but that's between the participants and the transgressors - as long as it doesn't interfere with the game rules. I hope the difference is clear enough, and that we can agree on these two categories about the nature of a stable system that can exist in the game. The question remains - how does the dojo correspond to this division?

I accept your apology, where ever it might be, but I'll read between the lines No problems. Back on topic shall we? [quote name='Liberty4life' post='18138' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:22 PM']i didnt tried to say that your observation should be discarded i was trying to say that it was already seen and suggested a way to fix it, the same one you suggested[/quote] Ok, I pointed out a problem about the dojo information system and it has been observed before. Done. I observed several other things however (which have been seconded as "new"), and I would like them commented. [quote name='Liberty4life' post='18138' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:22 PM']i still dont get this, so what if you dont want to follow rules, you attack players, dojo staff permits you to attack, when spell wears off, later you came back when there is no dojo staff online and attack again, i still dont see it as problem, btw i think it will work in that way, but dont believe me much because i dont know it, it just an assumption[/quote] I would like to explain it further to you. If you give powers to some players that nobody else has, and if you call those special players "officials" - then you have made the dojo "official", and it becomes part of the game rules. On several occasions you have said that the dojo will not become part of the game rules. It has been sanctioned by the creator, but it is not implemented as a game rule. Can you see the contradiction? If there are officials with special duties and powers about the dojo, then the dojo becomes an official element of the game structure. As I understand it, the dojo is based entirely on community decision. I would like to point out that this is not the consensus of the majotity of the gaming community, but rather those who have taken the initiative in the first place. This is great and I love the idea, as most players. BUT! There's alway a but isn't there? BUT it is not [b]mandatroy[/b]. This is a huuuge HOLE in the game, or rather - your dojo project. It is the very first thing that needs to be defined! It is the the basis of the whole project. Is the dojo mandatory (either now or in the future), or not? It is completely inconsequential to discuss the details of the dojo system, such as punishment and information availability, until this vital question is answered! The answer to that question will answer numerous other questions. For instance, if the dojo is NOT mandatory, nor will it be made mandatory in the future, then what possible argument could support founding special officials and special powers that are concerned with the dojo?? If the dojo-supporters want to punish people who damage them, they can punish them on their own, they can organize, they can make their lists, they can do this or that but it's their [b]private matter[/b]. If the dojo IS to become mandatory, then we can talk about the punishment system by means of special officials with special options and powers... Without an answer to that -it simply can't be done in a normal stable system of rules, and that is the foundation of every community of people, be it a game or a state. Is there anyone else who is in a position to answer this question? And I hope you agree that I have validly proved the contradiction, as well as you'll agree that there is no place for contradictions as the game becomes fully developed.

I agree completely with you, on all accounts. But I think you'll agree with me that all that is subject only to individual control of the players. It's hard to imagine a RP authority that polices the chat-sites... We should agree on the matter, produce a program and advertise it. Dare I call it a "movement"? Unlikely, however...

[quote name='Udgard' post='18127' date='Oct 9 2008, 12:19 PM']...and I hope this will not continue to a further fight...[/quote] This is guaranteed, solemnly

You make a good point. Perhaps you would like to address the question of balance? Let's imagine a compromise between you and tarquinus, is the balance of the RP styles important? I thing that the asterisks are overwhelmingly dominant, to such an extent that it decreases the quality of the gaming atmosphere (for some, and seemingly more and more, players)

Perhaps in time the finished game might provide a more serious atmosphere to the game concept, which might prove a positive influence on the RP wannabes Perhaps not... Obviously, if one wants to do some serious RP* right NOW, the first step should be identification of similarly minded players. Perhaps a new forum category...? Opinions? *by serious RP I mean making elaborate character stories and modifying them "by the MD book" - for example, there can be no mages because there is yet no magic, etc... (open for discussion)

well I for one welcome you I have a friend who would probably want to injure you for your nickname It's his in most games, you see... You were faster, however... haha

[quote name='maggot' post='18090' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:38 AM']Disagree. It would be pretty much a game rule not to attack in dojo if the developer gave those powers to dojo staff.[/quote] This is exactly what I said, before and during I somehow ended up meddling with the oligarchy system of the forum and the game, or so it seems. Liberty, you have offended me and I must take issue with that right now. Let me explain, try to read me correctly and with good will... I don't care who you are, and I care even less who you think you are. You think I owe you respect just because you have some kind of title next to your nickname? I'll tell you what you have and I don't . it's [u][b]time[/b][/u]. You have seniority. You had time to ask questions when no one bothered. You had time to answer questions when others ignored. You got [u][b]involved[/b][/u], and you were [u][b]appreciated[/b][/u] for it. This is the basis of your title, and the only substance behind it is your personal will, and time. And this is exactly what I am trying to do! I'm in the initial phase of asking questions. I will eventually reach the phase of answering them, and, in time, I might call you a colleague in terms of titles next to nicknames. I am to be called annoying because of this?? I am annoying to you?! For getting myself [b]involved[/b], I am annoying?? My comments are constructive! I am well spoken, well read, well educated and well mannered. "I have a gift for annoying people"? I ask you again, who are you?? Seeker of Enlightment, indeed. Player to player (and not serf to master, as you would obviously have it), I demand your apology. I am a lawyer. And a Croatian one at that. You might know what that means, but somehow I doubt it. It means that I am not primarily trained to be persuasive - I am trained to [b]identify an obligatory system[/b], to [b]recognize its integral elements[/b], and to [b]find loopholes[/b] in it! When I say there is a loophole in your system, rest assured that my observation is worth looking into. And certainly not be discarded as [u]annoying[/u]. I suppose you are a younger person, so I am not heavily offended, but I still demand your apology. If you think I owe you an apology for asking questions, I'll give it as a gesture of good will. I'll repeat my point, so you don't get hung up on less important parts of my post, and this is aimed to the entire development team. I realize that you are very busy, and I'm not commenting on that at all. I'm just [b]warning you[/b] in good will that your approach to the dojo problems is folly! It is clear that in this stage you are [b]more concerned[/b] with implementing the punishment system than improving the information system! [b]IN MY OPINION[/b], and pardon me for taking myself seriously, this is a deconstructive approach to a problem (and I think I know my way around obligatory systems), the frequency of which will take its toll on the (emerging) new-player "[i]caste[/i]" (?) (dramatic music plays). And while I'm above responding to insult by further insult (@Liberty), I am, however, not above theatrics. That being said, I HUMBLY take my leave from your august presence, oh mighty oligarchy of seniors, ye who command obedience and respect lest we mortals be damned for annoyance. A joke. Thank you for your patience.

Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was speaking to the game creator himself Yes, I think there's a flaw, because the information is just not easily available. You say people are warned after they make a mistake. I'm saying that the mistake can be prevented. I suggested a method, and it's up to the creator, the staff or whoever is in a position to make a comment about that to consider it. If you're annoyed, I'm sorry that you are of weak nerves, but I'm not speaking to you really, am I? The game is in alpha still, so you can forget that "the stuff is already there" argument. I'm talking about what's not there, and what I think should be there. Your opinion is known, thank you for that. Who are you anyway? Don't be offended please, I'm actually trying to ease those weak nerves of yours.

WHAT are you talking about?? I'll have to take it slowly I see, piece by pice... Are you even reading my posts?? [quote name='Liberty4life' post='18055' date='Oct 8 2008, 02:52 PM']i dont get it what you wanted to say with this to stop posting names of repeated offenders since they know about rules and they keep breaking them, you call this discrimination? O.o so for example, a guy is a serial killer, you caught him, and instead of putting him in jail you would set him free to kill more ppl, sry but thats what you said, that you dont like that others who respect rules of dojo hunt this which are disrespecting dojo rules (that means killing players which respect it), it think you should reconsider what did you said[/quote] First of all, you don't know for a fact that all the offenders know about the dojo. You MAY know about certain individulas but you certainly don't know if all of them know, and you seem to have forgotten how confusing things get when you pop in the dojo area after the first story mode. Secondly, you talk about "braking the rules", and then you say that the dojo isn't mandatory. This is a contradiction, because the dojo rules are not recognized as a game rule, but as a deal between certain player that chose to behave this way. The creator ENDORSED your dojo, but has not made it a rule of the game. Thirdly, your example about murder is ridiculous, and I'll tell you why. Murder isn't punished because it's wrong (from a legal perspective), it's punished because it's [b]illegal[/b]. You do know what that means? It means that there's a law saying its not permitted to kill someone, lest ye be punished. If there's no law, it's permitted (the old latin legal [i]nulla crimen, nulla poena sine lege[/i])IN MD THERE IS NO LAW ABOUT THE DOJO. The dojo FOR NOW exists only thanks to the good graces of the players, but not the game rules. [quote name='Liberty4life' post='18055' date='Oct 8 2008, 02:52 PM']you suggested to make this about dojo the game rule, well that cant be done, punishment for breaking game rules is to get banned, and if you break dojo rules, why in hell you should get banned? since there are some players which play dark/evil role for example[/quote] I DID NOT suggest to make it the game rule, you're not reading my post. What I suggested is that if the creators could do something about SECURING the dojo by making the INFORMATION more available. I also suggested a possible method to that effect. [quote name='Liberty4life' post='18055' date='Oct 8 2008, 02:52 PM']for now only way of punishment for this that break rules is to hunt them down, as i said later it will be implemented that this player which break rules will be unable to attack[/quote] So you're saying that it will be a game rule after all? But above you said it can't be done? What do you mean, I'm confused? [quote name='Liberty4life' post='18055' date='Oct 8 2008, 02:52 PM']considering all this what you said, you would like to break dojo rules and go unpunished, or maybe you rushed toooooooo much about your opinions[/quote] I said no such thing. I'm a big supporter of the dojo, and I have never attacked anyone in the dojo area. To be honest, actually I did, when I first entered the area after the first story mode. I had no idea it was a dojo, I was new and everything was confusing. The IDEA of a dojo never even occurred to me. I was lucky someone had politely told me in a PM, and I am grateful that no one was angry because of my ignorance. And that's why I'm suggesting a more active informing mechanism, because if there wasn't for that polite person who warned me, I could have easily got to one of the lists and be "hunted" for it. This is very bad, to be misread so severely. You're not even reading my posts. I never said that I would like to attack peole at will, I'm pointing out a fatal FLAW in your dojo system, and it can cause discrimination and problems for people who just don't know what a dojo is and how it works in MD.

Yes yes I realize that, I'm not rushing anything nor am I complaining about the existence of the dojo (read closely), I'm just saying that there is a certain level of hypocracy regarding the dojo offenders. I am simply suggesting (not rushing) either the dojo-apologists demand that the development team* (*for discussion purposes) secure the dojo consensus by adding an automatic mechanism that will warn new players about its existence, or either the team ignores this initiative and therefore prohibit discrimination of the players who have their freedom in deciding how they should go about playing the game. Offender lists are discrimination, they are marked as some sort of criminals and forum readers are encouraged to recognize these players as negative elements who don't respect the community, and perhaps even take action to punish these offenders. [b]In my opinion[/b], this is unacceptable and wrong. Either the [i]game authorities[/i] secure the dojo by making the information available (really, few people read the forum), or they ignore it completely (which in itself drags along other effects - mainly the prohibition of the discrimination in form of the lists). I would like to add a clause to my opinions ---> [b]IN DUE TIME[/b]

[quote name='Liberty4life' post='18042' date='Oct 8 2008, 09:25 AM']dojo isnt programmer's idea, its players idea bound to role play, you can see player that belong to dojo staff and have titles saying so, its up to us (player, not developing team) to make dojo work[/quote] So you're saying that the players decisions on how the game should be enriched is no business of the developers? You are mistaken. And I'm not saying that the developers should make the dojo work, only that it would be better if the developers accept the initiative of the players and make sure that the dojo is there. When the players become aware of the dojo, it's up to them whether they will honour it or not. And if the game developers have nothing to do with the dojo, then why are there lists of offenders? I demand that these lists be prohibited from the official forum of the game. Nobody is braking any rules of the game, and there is absolutely no reason why should there be any lists of people who disagree with other players on matters that ale clearly of an optional and personal nature, between the players. If the developers have nothing to do with the dojo, then no one should be designated as some kind of criminal if a player should choose not to play along with some other players who decided something on their own - at least not on the official forum. However, if the developers choose to support this idea of the dojo, and approve that transgression of this "consensus" (although it really isn't, as experience shows) should be marked as negative, then why shouldn't they make this extra effort and make sure that EVERYONE knows that it's a dojo. Not to make sure everybody honours it, but just that they are aware of it.

Could a message be programmed so that every new player automatically receives an inbox message in which he would be asked if he would honour the dojo areas, and a list of the dojo areas, and an explanation of the dojo. And then it will be left to his own will and conscience, but at least he will be aware of it and no one might say that they attacked because of ignorance, nor will anyone say that they're damaged because they're forced to honour the dojo and some people even don't know what it is. By programming something like that I think you would solve a lot of problems, and you would learn no players to pay attention to the details right from the start. It could also be seen as an initiation into the gamer community