Elemental Theories

[Dragual]

~Note~ This is more of an out of game theory than anything.
*Warning, this is a long read and some may find it useless...

Before I begin, I'd like to mention that an amount of this theory developed by statements from others. Including Aristotle.


First, I believe there are four( possibly five) elements that govern reality. Aristotle said that each object is composed of one element or another. And that this is why some objects fall faster than others. He was proven wrong by science and mathematics. I instead propose that each element is in ALL things, yet governs different parts of the object. Consider that the element of Fire is simply the element of energy. If you heat up an object, you are increasing the element of Fire in said object. The element of Earth is the element of durability. This is the element that makes objects tangible and resistant. Then you move on to the element of Air. Air is the element that determines an objects ability to move. It is possible to move anything, I believe. And finally, there is the element of Water. Water is the element that makes something "bounce back." This is the "healing" element and is often more seen in rubber. In all objects, each element is present. However, the elements are not always balanced in an object. In some objects, one or more Elements dominate the others.

Next we'll move to us. I've thought, recently, that maybe each element represents a different part of a person. And by part I mean Mind, Body, Spirit and Soul. I could be wrong, but I'd say that the Soul is the Spirit as the Mind is to the Body. This would mean that the Mind and Soul are the perceptive sides, while the Body and Spirit are the sensitive sides. Obviously the Body and Mind are the physical pieces, while the Spirit and Soul are the ethereal pieces. Now what if we assign an element to represent each portion of our existence? The Body would be Earth while the Mind would be Air as that is balance. Which would in turn make the Soul the element of Fire and the spirit the element of Water. I would also like to add that we do not interact with each other with just our Bodies. I believe we interact with each other with all four portions of ourselves. I believe that all people are connected in such a way that it is best explained as a floor covered with marbles. When one marble moves in any way with any amount of energy, it will often hit the other marbles around it, affecting them and causing them to collide with even more marbles. Obviously this strike will lose it's power and energy after so long, however, imagine that all the marbles are moving at the same times, bouncing around and affecting those around them. This is because people are constantly interacting with one another. It is in this, that we write the destinies of others as much as we write our own.

Finally, I'd like to move on to the "realms" of this existence. I may now believe in "heaven and hell". Obviously Hell is the realm of Fire while Heaven is the realm of Water. This can even be proven in the bible by the "eternal life in Heaven" deal. Consider that this is why people die in this realm, the realm dominate of the element of Earth. The only element that I'm having a hard time with how the realm works is the realm of Air. For this realm, I've given it a variable name of Zephyr. I believe it to be the realm of the unknown.... It would be a realm in which we can only begin to understand.

In conclusion, I think this may help explain many things. Emotions, death, immortality and why we cannot have it on this realm, etc etc. I leave this open to the public because it is unrelated to the game, I think.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Dragual

[apophys]

This shouldn't have the word "theory" in it. It's an interpretation if you look at it figuratively, or a hypothesis if you look at it literally.


As for the content, please describe spirit and soul, as you understand them. These words can mean different things to different people.
For example, I may consider them to exist entirely within the Mind, as a figment of Imagination.

I wonder how the concept of a purgatory realm fits into your picture.


And finally regarding immortality, how would you regard a consciousness within an artificial brain that can be safely replaced if it degrades?

Edited June 24, 2012 by apophys

[Dragual]

Hmm...

I believe it is best described as a theory as I haven't proven it yet. I would like to begin simple occult practices that would provide proof of this... Concept.

As for a Spirit and a Soul... I believe that a Spirit is the ethereal body of a person while the Soul is a sort of... Memory. This is how we develop "Soul Mates". When we interact with a person in a past life, and develop a bond with them in such a way, our next life is destined to interact with them. Sort of like how certain animals simply know where to migrate or remember a scene with out ever visiting the place.

Hm... If it is artificial, then it is not real, correct? It would not truly be alive and therefore would simply be an everlasting presence with no real life.

[apophys]

[quote name='Dragual' timestamp='1340573980' post='115965']
Hm... If it is artificial, then it is not real, correct? It would not truly be alive and therefore would simply be an everlasting presence with no real life.
[/quote]

Then where does the limit between real and artificial exist?
For example, if you grew a fetus in a completely artificial environment, starting with a genetically modified egg, would it be alive to you? Or a brain removed from a body and kept permanently functioning, with an electronic input & output? What about a biological-based consciousness perfectly copied into an electronic medium? Or an artificially created electronic consciousness? (I assume that these will eventually be feasible, in a couple hundred years.)


Is a different base material and process of creation really that important, if both express intelligence, emotion, and self-awareness?

I personally would consider all of the above alive, and would consider them to have a right to basic human rights.


Now then, to totally screw with your mind - which of the above, in your opinion, would have a "spirit" and a "soul", and why?

Edited June 25, 2012 by apophys

[Dragual]

Hmm... All very good thoughts. But lets wait til such technology actually exists before we begin to theorize on it.

However, I would say that maybe when the brain is removed from the original body, it becomes someone else, yet with the same memories. Like repeated reincarnation in the same body. Perhaps we should consider that our bodies are not always our own. That we are only borrowing these bodies while we exist in this realm. As it is, we are born in flesh, then we die and our corpse returns to the earth.

[Magistra]

Theosophy believes that:

1. Animals have a collective brain. Like when you make five holes in a wall and stick your fingers through them. You see five fingers, but behind the wall there is a "master brain", the hand. That is why animals always know what to do. They are ruled by the hand behind the wall.

2. The body is just a vehicle. We use it, but it is not everlasting. When it is used up and dies, our mind goes to a higher level.

3. The brain is not - as most people believe - only a transmitter (as in telling our body what to do), but also a receiver. We receive input from a higher level, although we are not conscious of it most of the time.

4. Dreams are not - what most people believe - simply the dealing with things you have encountered that day, but you are in reality in another realm, a higher one. There are seven or twelve of this realms. At this moment we are in the fourth one, so in our dreams we are in the fifth.

If you want to know more of this, read some theosophical literature. Just google it.

[Nimrodel]

@ Magistra: I could deny all those statements with proof But I wont.. Each to their own.

[Magistra]

Nimrodel, please feel free. And don't forget the proof!

[Chewett]

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1340830235' post='116153']
@ Magistra: I could deny all those statements with proof But I wont.. Each to their own.
[/quote]

I would also disagree entirely with those points. And as Nim says, believe whacha want

Just because you found it on the internet, does not mean it is right. Its worrying to know i edit wikipedia, so beware!

[Magistra]

@Chewett: I didn't find it on the internet. I have been a theosophist for years. I simply advised people who wanted to know more about it to google Theosophy. Strange that I am being neg-repped just because I believe in something.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Magistra

[apophys]

[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1340873221' post='116173']
Strange that I am being neg-repped just because I believe in something.
[/quote]

Don't worry, neg rep on a post like that one won't last very long.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1340873221' post='116173']
@Chewett: I didn't find it on the internet. I have been a theosophist for years. I simply advised people who wanted to know more about it to google Theosophy. Strange that I am being neg-repped just because I believe in something.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E[/url]
I'll let Feynman answer this one.

[Magistra]

@Pipstickz: Einstein was a theosophist. (Plato was too.)

[Pipstickz]

And Hitler was a Christian, does that at all change the way you view Christianity? I'm not sharing Feynman's words because they come from Feynman or because Feynman was some all-knowing [i]scientist[/i], but because they are pertinent to the topic at hand.

[Magistra]

No, I only mentioned Einstein because Feynman worked on quantum electrodynamics and in Einsteins case this was the reason that drove him to the theosophy. In fact I was very pleased with your answer, because you let someone speak who didn't say he had all the scientific answers to everything. What most people don't know is that theosophy is no religion, but a mixture of religion, science and philosophy.

[BFH]

A little bit of off topic: This proves me why we never speak of religion/beliefs in game

Sorry Chew for going off topic

[Nimrodel]

Mmm... OKaj.. I will just because you asked me to.

[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1340727398' post='116093']
1. Animals have a collective brain. Like when you make five holes in a wall and stick your fingers through them. You see five fingers, but behind the wall there is a "master brain", the hand. That is why animals always know what to do. They are ruled by the hand behind the wall.[/quote]

[color=#800000]Starting with the anatomy of the hand in brief:[/color]
[color=#800000]1. Carpals: Scaphoid, Lunate, Triquetrium, Pisiform, Trapezium, Trapezoid, Capitate, Hamate.[/color]
[color=#800000] Metacarpals: 5[/color]
[color=#800000] Phalanges: 2 in the thumb and 3 each in rest of the digits.[/color]

[color=#800000]2. Muscles:[/color]
[color=#800000] 20 muscles:[/color]
[color=#800000] thenar: (i) Abductor pollicis brevis[/color]
[color=#800000] (ii) Flexor Pollicis brevis[/color]
[color=#800000] (iii) Opponens Pollicis[/color]
[color=#800000] Hypothenar: (i) Palmaris brevis[/color]
[color=#800000] (ii) Adductor digiti minimi[/color]
[color=#800000] (iii) Flexor digiti minimi[/color]
[color=#800000] (iv) Opponens digiti minimi[/color]
[color=#800000] Four lumbricals[/color]
[color=#800000] Four Palmar interossei[/color]
[color=#800000] Four Dorsal interossei[/color]

[color=#800000]3. Blood supply: Arterial: Radial and ulnar arteries[/color]
[color=#800000] Veinous: Dorsal venous plexus[/color]

[color=#800000]4. Nerve supply: Ulnar nerve[/color]
[color=#800000] Radial nerve[/color]
[color=#800000] Median Nerve[/color]

[color=#800000]THere is no master brain in the hand. The movements of the hand is conrolled by the nervous supply all three of them originating from the brachial plexus which inturn originates from the Spine.[/color]

[color=#800000]Back to the your point.[/color]
[color=#800000]Animals have brains of different types. The lower animals dont have brains at all. Just a primitive neural plexus. There is no such thing in Biology known as the collective brain. What tells them to do and what to do when is the innate sensory system they posses -- Vision, Audition, Olfaction, Perception, and Gustation which are commonly known as seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, and tasting. The feedback in the form of electrochemical impulses is sent back via nerves to the brain and the brain then transmits commands to the respective tissues. These tissues then release chemicals like hormones, cytokines etc which finally help the animal to react. For example, Fear, Fight, Flight are goverened by Adrenaline, commonly what you refer to as Adranaline rush. This behaviour with response to seasons and times of the day act in a similar mechanism. They have evolved in such a way that species with such a system survive and hence tranfer their genetic code to their progeny.[/color]

[color=#800000]Thank you Darwin you summed it all up in one phrase 'Survival of the fittest'[/color]

[color=#800000]If there is any hand that guides them, its themselves.[/color]


[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1340727398' post='116093']
Theosophy believes that:

2. The body is just a vehicle. We use it, but it is not everlasting. When it is used up and dies, our mind goes to a higher level. [/quote]

[color=#800000]1. Define Mind.[/color]
[color=#800000]2. Define Higher level.[/color]

[color=#800000]The body decomposes and mixes with the earth. The plants grow from the earth. Those plants are eaten by us or the animals. Those animals are again consumed by us. Thats the circle of life. It makes more sense than the mind going to a higher level. Enrgy is what makes us live. Without energy, there is nothing.[/color]


[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1340727398' post='116093']
Theosophy believes that:

3. The brain is not - as most people believe - only a transmitter (as in telling our body what to do), but also a receiver. We receive input from a higher level, although we are not conscious of it most of the time. [/quote]

[color=#800000]Again, Define higher level.[/color]

[color=#800000]Yes. The Brian is not only a transmitter. Hell, There'd be no sense in it being just a transmitter. As I mentioned before, It recieves. From the senses throught the concerned neural tract. The brain has different areas to where each sense transmits its impulses. I agree we are not conscious of the receptions most of the time. Ever slept off with ear phones on? You'll always find the song familiar once you wake up. Goes into the subconscious memory of the brain. And is stored as electrical impulse. I dont see any higher level in here. UNless you consider the senses the higher level.[/color]


[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1340727398' post='116093']
Theosophy believes that:

4. Dreams are not - what most people believe - simply the dealing with things you have encountered that day, but you are in reality in another realm, a higher one. There are seven or twelve of this realms. At this moment we are in the fourth one, so in our dreams we are in the fifth. [/quote]
[color=#800000]Again. Define Realm.[/color]

[color=#800000]I'll tell you though what I've learnt about Dreams from my books:[/color]

[color=#800000]The dream concept is of course a very complex one.[/color]

[color=#800000]There is something called R.E.M. sleep (Rapid Eye Movement). It is classified into Tonic and Phasic. Criteria to call a sleep pattern R.E.M. is presence of REM, decreased muscle tone and a rapid low voltage EEG (electroencephalogram) Its Periodic and usually has 5-6 cycles un one night's sleep. People see dreams in REM sleep.[/color]

[color=#800000]Dreams are an involuntary response. The brain activity is high during an REM sleep pattern. Quoting Freud, they are manifestations of our deepest desires and anxieties often relating to childhood memories or obsessions or fears or desires. That is with reference to Psychology. Neurologists say that [/color]

[color=#800000]All Scietific dream theories have something in common though. The Brain. It projects dreams as unexpressed emotion or a memory. What you sense physically while experiencing a dream is again a play of neurotransmitters and neuronal impulses.[/color]

[color=#800000]The human body is a complex machine. All of its secrets have not been revealed yet. Explaining the revealed and unrevealed secrets with vague terminologies such as Higher state and other realms, according to me, is like slapping every scientist, anatomist, doctor, or engineer who has ever worked hard to uncover the truth.[/color]

[color=#800000]But I wont criticize your belief.[/color]


[color=#800000]Oh btw... Interesting thing I found on the internet. There is a certain religion or sect of people -- The CoE - Church of Euthanasia for whom, the principles of their religion lie in Suicide, abortion, necrophagia and sodomy ( anything that isnt pro creation). They have a very noble aim. To balance nature with humankind. It makes perfect sense. Reduce population and protect the earth. *shrugs* who am I to say they are wrong? Each to their own..[/color]

[color=#800000]EDIT: I forgot the proof![/color]

[color=#800000]Its all in you. Your body. Yourself. You want to SEE proof? GO to an antomy department. You'll see. Go to a PHysiology department. You'll see. Go attend a surgery. You'll understand. Sit infront of A psychiatrist or a Neurologist when they do EEG. Ask them to explain what each wave means. They'll be glad to do that. When you get any blood tests done next time, ask the technitian or the doctor to explain the significance of each test. You'll see the miracles our body performs everyday. I would have personally explained stuff had you been living close to me... Pity[/color]

Edited July 3, 2012 by Nimrodel

[BFH]

[color=#800000]1. Define Mind.[/color]
[color=#800000]2. Define Higher level.[/color]

[color=#800000]The body decomposes and mixes with the earth. The plants grow from the earth. Those plants are eaten by us or the animals. Those animals are again consumed by us. Thats the circle of life. It makes more sense than the mind going to a higher level. Enrgy is what makes us live. Without energy, there is nothing.[/color]

OFC Basic Law of thermodynamics. Energy can't be created nor destroyed, just transformed. That's why an Entropy (tendence to disorder) states that when all the energy get changed to heat we will lose life in the world.


[color=#800000]Again, Define higher level.[/color]

[color=#800000]Yes. The Brian is not only a transmitter. Hell, There'd be no sense in it being just a transmitter. As I mentioned before, It recieves. From the senses throught the concerned neural tract. The brain has different areas to where each sense transmits its impulses. I agree we are not conscious of the receptions most of the time. Ever slept off with ear phones on? You'll always find the song familiar once you wake up. Goes into the subconscious memory of the brain. And is stored as electrical impulse. I dont see any higher level in here. UNless you consider the senses the higher level.[/color]

OFC brain receives... That's the point of having different lobes.

EX: Occipital for vision, temporal for audition, etc. Moreover, we use our neurones as transmiters, but their structures allow them to receive information as well (dentrites)...



[color=#800000]Again. Define Realm.[/color]

[color=#800000]I'll tell you though what I've learnt about Dreams from my books:[/color]

[color=#800000]The dream concept is of course a very complex one.[/color]

[color=#800000]There is something called R.E.M. sleep (Rapid Eye Movement). It is classified into Tonic and Phasic. Criteria to call a sleep pattern R.E.M. is presence of REM, decreased muscle tone and a rapid low voltage EEG (electroencephalogram) Its Periodic and usually has 5-6 cycles un one night's sleep. People see dreams in REM sleep.[/color]

Also you can't excape REM because of the REM rebound, which means that if you are deprived of sleep your body will tend to recover the lost REM during your next sleep period, which means that you will stay more time in REM.

Moreover, during REM you are inmovilised and the theory says that if you receive an external stimulus you might reflect it on your dreams. EX: Drops of water on your face while you are in REM might transform to rain on your dreams.

[color=#800000]Dreams are an involuntary response. The brain activity is high during an REM sleep pattern. Quoting Freud, they are manifestations of our deepest desires and anxieties often relating to childhood memories or obsessions or fears or desires. That is with reference to Psychology. Neurologists say that [/color]

BTW: Not only Freud's theories, but there are two more that I have knowledge offff...

[color=#800000]All Scietific dream theories have something in common though. The Brain. It projects dreams as unexpressed emotion or a memory. What you sense physically while experiencing a dream is again a play of neurotransmitters and neuronal impulses.[/color]

[color=#800000]The human body is a complex machine. All of its secrets have not been revealed yet. Explaining the revealed and unrevealed secrets with vague terminologies such as Higher state and other realms, according to me, is like slapping every scientist, anatomist, doctor, or engineer who has ever worked hard to uncover the truth.[/color]

[color=#800000]But I wont criticize your belief.[/color]


[color=#800000]Oh btw... Interesting thing I found on the internet. There is a certain religion or sect of people -- The CoE - Church of Euthanasia[/color] [XD THIS IS OLD and real :P] [color=#800000]for whom, the principles of their religion lie in Suicide, abortion, necrophagia and sodomy ( anything that isnt pro creation). They have a very noble aim. To balance nature with humankind. It makes perfect sense. Reduce population and protect the earth. *shrugs* who am I to say they are wrong? Each to their own..[/color]

[color=#800000]EDIT: I forgot the proof![/color]

[color=#800000]Its all in you. Your body. Yourself. You want to SEE proof? GO to an antomy department. You'll see. Go to a PHysiology department. You'll see. Go attend a surgery. You'll understand. Sit infront of A psychiatrist or a Neurologist when they do EEG. Ask them to explain what each wave means. They'll be glad to do that. When you get any blood tests done next time, ask the technitian or the doctor to explain the significance of each test. You'll see the miracles our body performs everyday. I would have personally explained stuff had you been living close to me... Pity[/color]


Summary: I totally agree with NIM

[The Warrior]

If Earth, Air, Fire and Water are present in all things, then how do they combine as Air?

[Maebius]

Add enough Fire and it all Vaporizes. (I mean that in both classical physics, and elemental correspondances, I think)

[Magistra]

When you, Nimrodel, and you, BHF, are solely relying on science, it has no use for me to react, because I simply don't believe that. Consider this a weakness if you want, but it simply has to do with our different beliefs.

Anyway, I would have reacted earlier, but I saw your posts just now.