Question the obvious - water surface

[Muratus del Mur]

we take things for granted and when we look for explanations we learn from others and look into past explorations of the unknown. This is good, it supports education..what can I say.. I don't think its healthy however. Looking at something obvious and wondering yoursef "why"..without googling it or looking it up in books, will possibly make you understand something more. It changes the perspective on things quite a bit. You will not find answers, but you will learn to educate your questions, and that is the most important step to a newborn mind. ...If you ever thought of yourself you are anything else than a newborn, then you are already one step in your grave ;)

water

i stare at a lake surface right now and i wonder why there are ripples. I try to clear my rational mind and ignore predefined answers in my head like "because of the wind"..and what else do I observe..

- if you put a square shape into the water, the ripples end up to be round anyway. water has attitude.
- if you cause multiple ripple sources, eventually all generated ripples join in one big large wave
- waves appear to be random..but wait..my rational mind screams from its virtual cell "everything has an explenation, all movement could be tracked and theoretically its connected to what caused it, back to the beginning of this world"
..and here system error occurs

everything is mathematicaly explainable, every bit of randomness is not random because at some point something caused each part if it..assuming there is a "start". what if there was none.

what if the ripples i stare at are actually truly random as my intuition fights to tell me against what reason "explains" me?

it is in randomness i would search for the ultimate order

and i keep staring at the waves...they are repeating..repeating randomness...and i realize i reached again a border i reached before.

my questions are..what do you observe when you look at a (natural source) water surface. Someone I asked this had a very natural and shocking (for me) reaction..told me "everything is simple, it is alive"

what am i missing? what else can you observe on water that is not tainted by knowledge.

question the obvious

[Chewett]

Randomness and order can easily be seen in radiation.

 

A radioactive source decaying is a random event, you cannot predict when an atom will decay and release radiatition, its entirely random.

 

But take a group of a trillion atoms, and you know that within one half life, half of those atoms will have decayed. Its such as perfect measure that atomic clocks use this predictable pattern of decay to count time. So perfect in fact that these atomic clocks need to be adjusted to fit the inperfect rotation of the earth around the sun.

 

If you look at single elements, without considering their outside interactions, things can appear random. However if you look at the greater picture then it becomes much more predictable.

[rikstar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noDSyLzVz2g&list=UUoxcjq-8xIDTYp3uz647V5A&index=6

 

A bit offtopic, but this shows that the random decaying isn't that random.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

I suggest you distrust your eyes.  Try a slow-motion recording.  I saw a good one the other day...

 

 

http://youtu.be/j_OyHUqIIOU

 

Starting around 4:13, especially.

 

As far as what I personally see on SURFACES...That's for another day.

 

Removed knowledge tainted thoughts.

 

More good videos:

 

http://gizmodo.com/5853860/super-slow-motion-ocean-waves-look-like-delicious-gigantic-jell+o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4sJHyHoiHI

 

 

with more focus on the "separation" after the water loses its bottom and the connection to its friends (the unbroken body of the wave) that are holding it onto the wave...

 

waterfall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTq91U7YcIE

 

 

small waterfall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWiIekICEWs

 

Ice cubes kept separate can be drawn together by the water from their melting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeadSi5d_WY

 

 

 

 

For comparison:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XzVydLARcE

 

Irrelevantly, for giggles and marveling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fot3m7kyLn4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCapNpKHJ_M&feature=endscreen

Edited May 20, 2013 by Ackshan Bemunah

[dst]

what do you observe when you look at a (natural source) water surface

 

 

If it's a deep/large water and it's night (or if it's not a sunny day) I see a "murderer". I am afraid of deep/large waters at night (or better said during low light :D).

During a sunny day I see...well usually i end up with some eye ache :D

[DARK DEMON]

What do I observe? My reflection.

[Muratus del Mur]

Radioactive decay is the only "true" random source simply because its unexplainable..i wonder is there a theory to prove it? Or at least did any lab isolate one single lonely atom and observe this decay?, because otherwise how can we know its not actually comming out as random due to outside influences, thus, explainable in a larger context.

I don't think true random is possible... (no i am not contradicting myself)

[ignnus]

I agree..with almost everything
1-everything is as it is
2-there is no such things as random or chaos other than the random itself.
3-if there is no start..the whole equation doesn't exist..
(should not eliminate the possibility of a difficult to comprehend kind of start which in turn should not destroy
the foundation just change it..I hope)

4-there is no difference between a human and a stone except their differences 

So boring right..on the surface :D

watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0


 

Edited May 20, 2013 by ignnus

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Not following something: Would a field equation be an equation and without initial conditions still have a "start"?

[VertuHonagan]

Nothing ever is truly random. Everything has a set pattern or "coding" built into it. It will function and respond to situations based upon its imprinted coding.

 

My mom read a did you know fact during the weekend that was interesting to me, it was this:

 

Did you know that a scientist in Japan did a study on slime mold, and apparently if you put slime mold into a maze, it will quickly find the fastest correct route through the maze to get to its food source.

[dst]

How about PI? Isn't that random?

[ignnus]

It won't be an equation but will have it's own existance :D

[Grido]

Most things appear random until you understand what's going on, the question being do you wish to remain with the concept of random, or the reason behind it?

 

I could tell you all sorts of reasons as for ripples, why they appear random, why a square still produces a circular ripple, and a number of other things that my particularly fun Physics teacher once taught me (also taught me the theory of how to make a nuke, good fun).

 

But I'd prefer to say about hydrostatic attraction (fairly sure that's the right term). In simple terms, water likes itself, it will always move towards itself where possible - it's why you have those ice-cubes melting and drifting together someone else mentioned before. It can also climb.

 

 

When I look at a water surface, I see infinity, or rather a depth that cannot be defined, and calmness. In the film The Shawshank Redemption, it comments about how the ocean is vast and deep, and has no memory - water is a way to forget and remember.

In the morning people splash their face with water to wake themselves up, people have showers that "wash the day away".

Water is life and death, we need it to live, too much and we drown or are crushed, we rely on it because it is always there (other countries this is unfortunately not the case), not thinking about it.

 

 

And dst, Pi is irrational, it's not random, it's very much predictable.

[Lazarus]

Eveything isn't random. People usually have misconceptions about this word and the majority defines it as having no purpose, lacks pattern or predictability of the events, but eveything comes from one event and has been going on for billions of years.

 

To me there are two origins about the idea of randomness: Human and Nature.

 

The human conception of randomness is what we think now, that everything just pops in without any reason. Imagine you're walking inside a convenience store, the people in it, the products in their different places, kids running around, old people that pays in $20 worth of pennies that makes your lose your patience, grumpy fat man who swears a lot, this is the human context of randomness. Everything just happens to be there at that time and at that place. You go out of the store, drive your way home through a traffic that just happens to be there as always, arrive home, watch TV, hear the news about a mugger killed during a gunshot at a local store, kids crying etc.

 

Then you stop caring and goes to bed instead, hoping that the next day would be better and not think of yourself as just a statistic in this vast ocean of random people who does random things who just happens to be in their random places.

 

You wake up, slpash water on your face, droplets falls in different places. You wear your uniform and badge to go to work. You never think of any reason behind it as to why it's happening and considered to be random.

 

Natural randomness is the opposite. Everything that is and has been is caused by something, and that something could be anything that can be traced back to the beggining of every single thing that we have right now. If the Big Bang theory is real then what we're experiencing right now, in this exact moment, as you're reading this and wondering about some BS that I am writing, came from a single event that caused a ripple effect throughout the history. Maybe your decision about deceiving that old lady to get her spot is right, that you came out just in time for the mugger to shoot the grumpy fat man inside that convenience store, maybe those kids will be traumatized for life that when they grow up they won't experience the normal life with the social norm, maybe if you stayed for a while you could have helped them by calling back up, instead you did and you try to think that it is your fault, that you didn't do your job right as a Police officer.

 

Everything has a reason, it is the product of the events that has happened from the beginning of time to as recent as a second ago. This is the same as the ripple effect, except that it applies to all universal things, even light creates ripples although it is believed as both particle and waves at the same time. (See double-slit experiment ripple effect explained)

 

So the ripples in the water that you see is meaningless, they're just ripples, but it happens for a reason, and that reason is that you decided to dip a square shaped object in it. The argument inside your mind between the questions "is it random?" or "is it a result of something?" can be based on the two definitions of randomness that I have just stated. A perfectly calmed water without any slight disturbance cannot create ripples (including absence of quantum size objects that can cause it), it just cannot happen, except if there a ghost's intervention...

 

Did the ripples caused by the wind blowing on it or it just happened all of a sudden without any reason?

[Muratus del Mur]

its very interesting to read your replies

I think there is a fundamental problem about randomness..if it exists, it means its either on the "free will" extreme of things, or on the "garbage bin of the universe" extreme... our nature prevents us to think even the remote possibility that these two could possibly be one and the same thing (!!!).. but from other experience i know that extreme sides touch each other. I say free will because random information raises serious questions about the source of the "randomly" generated information. I say garbage bin because if the randomly generated information is truly useless or meaningless, or simply changes nothing in the universe, is invisible to all observers, then it could exist as surplus. We name waves as a general sum, we use radioactive decay for its stability not its randomness, and even when doing that the random does not change much. In last case, where randomness could exist as the garbage bin of the universe, or ignorance area, "nothing" could turn into "everything" and instead of "silence" it could be "pure noise" of information. On the other hand if the randomness exists and could have an isolated theoretical source (i still exclude readioactivity..maybe i am wrong, idk)..then it means the universe is equally alive as we are.

 

Regarding pi (or any irrational number) and randomness, ..well infinity should not be confused with randomness, but it raises a question, does infinity CAUSE true randomness? I guess there is no "true" infinity either, its always about now, tomorow and the "possibility" that there is a next one after the second.

 

The more i dive into these waves , some roots remain stable:

- water seems to me the key to randomness, intuition screams ..why water and not..oil..its also fluid..i have no clue, intuition makes no sense lol

- randomness seems to lead to information about free will (religious implications..It could also indicate how similar we are in nature to the world we live in) and also help understand if we live in a closed or open system. is it garbage bin or source, closed or open.

- infinity and randomness seem connected somehow..both are there yet they are not actually there..same like "everything" and "nothing".

 

.. information coils connecting to the same center over and over again, so far all doors appeared closed..except..if the key is not to one door but opening more at the same time ..its what i am doing now.

[Muratus del Mur]

----

i was reading what i wrote several times because its 3am and i am a bit tired, and then i realized the possibility of something..

if it is a closed or open system could be determined by knowing if there is such a thing like true randomness or not (in theory)..does anyone understand why i say this?

i feel i found the solution to a puzzle i never realized in the first place

[Ackshan Bemunah]

As far as the randomness being a consequence of free will that reflects the degree to which we're connected in nature to the world we live in (vs. the one we don't)...yup, that's free will.  Determines, maybe, not reflects.

 

Why water and not oil, molasses?

 

Does it matter if it's freshwater or saltwater or elemental water?

Edited May 21, 2013 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Muratus del Mur]

I can't sleep thinking of all this, that water today changed something in me...i look at things and "remember" stuff i have the sensation i already discovered long ago. It might be just my memory recovering so if i am amazed discovering things any of you knows i did before (in private or on forum), please let me know, it would explain my sensation.

 

here is a summary of the general context of my research and where randomness fits in:

 

The universe is open but opens towards “nothing”. I imagined things as coils of ideas leading back to a single point ..i explain it to myself now, by imagining that point being both a crossing point and a dead end at the same time as it leads to the untangible “nothing”;  Figure eight, facing mirrors, retrocausality as unhappened events that are drained from a stable system outside it and BACK to itself. The point of 'nothing' is a time mirror. It cuts reality in half and put each half in motion towards eachother. Each half experiences "time", it just flows in the opposite direction. Its how events already happend in the future and take grow roots in the past.

 

Imperfection is part of perfection, in my opinion. A closed universe becomes opened by a point of “nothingness” then incorporates it in itself bocoming complete but suffering the consequences. These consequences are entropy and time, with a byproduct called randomness manifested in various forms. The stable universe is goverened by a 4-fold balance where 3 points determine the optional 4th. The tainted, unstable universe expands to 8-fold balance (the number 12 has a major role in the way i see all of this. Just think of a cube, it has 8 corners but 12 sides, you could observe the intersections or the ways so to speak, 8 and 12 are same thing from this point of view but so much more individually.

 

--

I still think water holds the key to everything. When you say water you think of life, but i am convinced water just stepped in the way of life and not the opposite. I am thinking maybe my intuition sees life and water connected so much that it tries to say life is the key to everything, but replaces "life" with "water" ...or is that too wrong to possibly be true? You understand what i try to say here?

[Ackshan Bemunah]

When you say time flows backwards

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_DVnT_2J0U

 

?

Edited May 21, 2013 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Jester]

"if it is a closed or open system could be determined by knowing if there is such a thing like true randomness or not (in theory)..does anyone understand why i say this?"

 

If its a closed system things would follow a predictable pattern, because nothing could enter or leave. If its an open system things would change from outside variables, introducing randomness, or at least things that appear random until you widen the system. Thats how I see it.

 

Also, I'm not sure where I read this, and it might be outdated, but I remember reading that there was no way to determine which direction something really, really tiny (like electrons or something, I dunno) would spin after splitting and the results seemed to be 50% either way. Perhaps they found a way to determine it, I'm not sure.

 

Personally I believe the only "randomness" in the world is choice. I believe that even if you knew everything single thing about a person you still wouldn't be able to be 100% sure what decisions they would make 100% of the time.

 

I'll have to ponder the whole closed universe and retrocausality thing more before I can make any worthwhile comment.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Jester

[Jubaris]

Water ripple question sounds kind of silly to me, although you probably have your good reason about it.

Intuitively speaking, those ripples can be explained by physics. Winds, movement of beings in water, etc. - outside influences. If you look at the water in a pool, you will see how smooth and calm it is, enabling your clear view of the bottom of the pool, because a pool (without people in it) has no outside influences. 

You can look at a glass of water too.

So I don't understand your fascination about it.

 

But, randomness is a thing that easily creates obsession.

I don't have a slightest HINT on how can it work, if it exists in the very place. But what are the consequences if it doesn't exist? Everything happened as it must have happened, because there is a pattern. Our actions, creation of MD, this forum, this typing of mine, our thoughts... Everything would be logical, natural, and the only way of happening.

Meaning, someone with a huge database, so huge we can't realize, would be able to determine every event in the future as it must happen.

There wouldn't be free will. We think like this because we had to think like this.

That leads me to a conclusion that there should (a big should) be randomness. Otherwise, existence is pointless. Unless there's an outer universe. But that universe has to have randomness. Or again, an outer universe... x) Etc.

[Phantom Orchid]

what else can you observe on water that is not tainted by knowledge

 

 

 

Every living thing was created from water, according to the Qur'an; in Genesis, god's spirit hovered above water, creating darkness and light; in the Hindu tradition (and many others), water is the source of fertility and healing (both physical and spiritual).

 

Science teaches us that water came from the heat of clashing stars.

 

And when I look upon the reflection of the sun and moon on water, it reminds me that water began in starlight!

 

But it is the force of water that, for me, creates such power and beauty by how it moves through our day-to-day lives. From earth, to air, and back again. It may come as a trickle, it may come as a hurricane.  It may fall as a drop of dew down a lover's chest, or as an avalanche. 

 

It is the great shapeshifter.

 

It flows through our body (not to mention we are ~70% water) in our blood, just as it flows through all other forms of life, connecting us all to the Source.

 

 

 

Now, to answer your question.

 

Feel your pulse.  Close your eyes and do not think about it... feel it.

 

That is water. 

 

 

-----

 

 

re: randomness

I really liked Chew's statement:

If you look at single elements, without considering their outside interactions, things can appear random. However if you look at the greater picture then it becomes much more predictable.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Phantom Orchid

[Tom Pouce]

about randomness

id say that randomness is often from to numerous interractions, or to many initial conditions to know and make an lack of pratical model that would predict an outcome

for exemple
dice (not tampered with), each throw outcome would be concider random as one cannot predict it, but one would say he can tel statistically the probablility in an greath number of thow of the outcome

But if one could know the exact throw condition and control all variables (geometrie, mass, acceleration, friction, temperature .... of dice, and an mechanical throwing machine, and thrownes upon surface and ... ), one could predict the outcome of an throw but since its not pratical, we concider it random

in many fields of science, computer and instrumetation have enable scientist to make model that describe phenomen that was impossible before having those tools.
 

Edited May 21, 2013 by Tom Pouce

[Nimrodel]

what else can you observe on water that is not tainted by knowledge

Call me stupid, but when I see fresh water, I just feel like drinking it. Muddy/pond water, avoiding it. Sea water or salt water, jumping into it to enjoy a bit of beach craziness. Water with the scenic view of sunset/sunrise: just to keep looking, without thinking bout anything. Call my behaviour primal, but thats what I am.

P.s. - rarely, if i am feeling too lazy for craziness, ripples make me wonder what fell into them to create them..

PPS: true randomness does exist. Without true randomness there'd be no survival of the fittest, no evolution. However big the picture is, the fundamental base of evolution is randomness. Edited May 22, 2013 by Nimrodel

[Phantom Orchid]

However big the picture is, the fundamental base of evolution is randomness.

And all this Time I thought it was natural selection!   ><

 

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