"Outing" of Alts

[Phantom Orchid]

"Outing" of alts by players with administrative tools.

 

Discuss.

 

 

 

 

_{(I am not directly saying dst used admin tools to out my alt - she just happens to have them, and I would argue that people with those privileges should respect personal boundaries and not out peoples' alts)}

Edited June 11, 2013 by Phantom Orchid

[Maebius]

Hmm, I'm on the fence with this topic, but see that both sides will have strong arguments in their respective favors.  

Overall,  I think such posting is 'allowed', in the same way that the recent forum topic "not illegal" but is one of those pesky grey-area ethical issues.

(http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/14244-hard-n-phirm-not-illegal/?p=137738

)

 

I would generally be agaisnt such activity, without permission from the alt owners, since it seems most times such information is posted, it is in order to harass or otherwise irritate the person who's alt is "secret".   However, as stated above, there's usually a reason such information is Outed as well.

 

Ignoring reasons like "retribution of insults/abuse", I can also see some valid reasons for posting this sort of thing.  Unfortunately, all of these reasons feel very subjective, and thus, are open to different interpretations on a case-by-case and person-by-person opinion. 

 

Inform the community of potential troublemaking.  Might be good to know who you deal with?

 

Share potential alt-abuse issues, for whatever reason (combat train/quest help, etc)

 

But, I'd also love to hear other opinions on the topic.

 

 

[spoiler]Over all of it, I still keep reminding myself that "MD is not a true democracy". There's a unique precident in the game of "spells can be used however you want". This has good and bad sides, but is something I rather like about MD itself. The rules are slightly different here, than "out there".


And if Mur suddenly decides "ok, all folks who are nice are considered criminals, only Monarchs make rules, and can be arbitrary"... well, that will change MD a bit and make some folks leave, but would still be an interesting realm to work in, wouldn't it?

[/spoiler]

[Nimrodel]

I do not really have issues with that. If you want to be all hus bout your character being your alt, take relevant measures to keep it that secretive. People in MD are intelligent enough to find out without using adm tools. So.. Yeah. If your rival/nemesis/enemy/anti finds out bout your little secret, its your fault really. Unless you are accusing someone with an alt checker to be abusing their powers.

If the grumpy wookie says that dst doesn't have an alt checker, I believe him. And with that I let myself believe that in many ways it was your fault that you got your alt identity revealed. If dst can be accused of anything, it is throwing the bait. :p

[Jubaris]

If any admin privilege was used to get that information, it should be illegal posting that information public just for the sake of it.

 

If the conclusion that someone is an alt of a certain player was made via regular analyzing (part C of Chewett's post for instance), then it is quite 'legal', although rude and frowned upon in most of cases, it depends on the circumstances. (perhaps a certain abuse or deception was prevented, and in that case posting would be socially very acceptable. Very much frowned upon if a player wanted to try out a new role and perspective on things, and you just ruined it for the player just because you can)

Anyhows, if admins privileges were not used, then at the end, as it was said already, the alt has a certain dose of blame to get as well for not managing to keep his identity secret (meaning, new role was not conducted that well), and exposing the identity is, kind of, free game.

 

The thing with Dst, in recent events, is that I am completely ignorant of the fact is she getting those conclusions based on that legitimate analyzing, or via some admin tools, IP checkers and such.

Perhaps she would be willing to share that with us?

To add one more thing:

 

Let's take Dst as an example. A player develops a conflict with Dst, then makes an alt. The alt keeps this hostile attitude towards Dst - it means that the traces of your main account persona were transfered to your alt, and that the whole concept of new role/perception falls to the water, because ideally the alt should develop a conflict with Dst from scratch, not receive it as a legacy of the previous account.

In that case, Dst's retaliation of posting the alt information is 'fair' (again, if no admin tools were used).

 

Dst didn't leave the impression that such was the case with Poe and Magistra when posting their information, and it is unknown whether certain admin privileges were used, so do not apply this example to events that took place.

[No one]

Let's take Dst as an example. A player develops a conflict with Dst, then makes an alt. The alt keeps this hostile attitude towards Dst - it means that the traces of your main account persona were transfered to your alt, and that the whole concept of new role/perception falls to the water, because ideally the alt should develop a conflict with Dst from scratch, not receive it as a legacy of the previous account.

In that case, Dst's retaliation of posting the alt information is 'fair' (again, if no admin tools were used).

 

+5 for the example. I like it.

 

 

Redacted out.

 

 

____________________________________________________________

Let it be or prepare for the worse.

Edited June 10, 2013 by No one

[Phantom Orchid]

A) The only admin tools that could possibly determine an alt is the altchecker, dst definately does not have access to this

 

B) If you use your alts to leave slanderous comments on dst then its very easy to guess who they are

 

C) Using B) and the same country list, it logically follows and agrees with the data gathered in B)

 

Result: You used your alts to abuse her, she realised, she outed then without any form of powers. Like anyone else could.

 

So the question is, are players allowed to do this? She did it to magistra's alt in the forum. Discuss.

 

The only comments Nicola left for dst were from her observations of dst in-game.  If you want background, you could ask, you know  :P

 

Now, you are accusing me of leaving "slanderous comments" - Slanderous how, exactly?

You are saying I used alts to abuse her - where's the proofs?

[Phantom Orchid]

To add one more thing:

 

Let's take Dst as an example. A player develops a conflict with Dst, then makes an alt. The alt keeps this hostile attitude towards Dst - it means that the traces of your main account persona were transfered to your alt, and that the whole concept of new role/perception falls to the water, because ideally the alt should develop a conflict with Dst from scratch, not receive it as a legacy of the previous account.

In that case, Dst's retaliation of posting the alt information is 'fair' (again, if no admin tools were used).

 

Dst didn't leave the impression that such was the case with Poe and Magistra when posting their information, and it is unknown whether certain admin privileges were used, so do not apply this example to events that took place.

 That is a lot of supposition.

Nicola has never interacted with dst, except for posting in her AL due to in-game events which she observed (she doesn't talk much).

[Burns]

_{(I am not directly saying dst used admin tools to out my alt - she just happens to have them, and I would argue that people with those privileges should respect personal boundaries and not out peoples' alts)}

 

Why would those players be treated differently than any others at times they are not working on something administrative, then?

Just as example, us mods can use the forum like any other player to share our thoughts, and ignore the rules we need to follow when moderating. The special rules only apply when we're using powers that other, 'normal' accounts don't have.

 

If there's an admin using special stuff outside of the functions they should use it in, they should be treated under stricter admin rules. Otherwise, everybody should be bound to the same rules, and nobody should be allowed to call alts on anybody. Which i'd disagree very much with, because some people are seriously abusing their alts to acquire knowledge they'd never be allowed to get if people knew which others accounts they use.

[Phantom Orchid]

In the vein of being a vet - they should know better and be a little more respectful/considerate.  I personally hate when someone tells me who is an alt of who - it taints my character's unique perspective of the others' unique character and interactions, whether "I" like it or not.

 

It is just one other way that the magical experiences of this realm get squashed, in my experience.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Phantom Orchid

[No one]

@mods, please spell/change this as you see fit.

 

In the vein of being a vet - they should know better and be a little more respectful/considerate.  I personally hate when someone tells me who is an alt of who - it taints my character's unique perspective of the others' unique character and interactions, whether "I" like it or not.

 

It is just one other way that the magical experiences of this realm get squashed, in my experience.

 

 

How can you even consider asking for anything like this when you yourself don't do it ?

 

This is in MY player log ? Remember :

 

Phantom Orchid
dst\'s brat alt:

I will not even try to find other example on what you wrote about be.

 

The nerve you have to ask someone not to say about anybody else that is an alt.

 

 

 

______________________________________________________

............. large amount of "beautiful" attributes ....... (to be continued)

Edited June 11, 2013 by Burns
as requested

[Kyphis the Bard]

I like to keep long, long lists of everyone's alts.

 

It is a hobby.

 

From doing this, I can assure you, it ain't hard to spot an alt, even without tools.

 

In the vein of being a vet - they should know better and be a little more respectful/considerate.  I personally hate when someone tells me who is an alt of who - it taints my character's unique perspective of the others' unique character and interactions, whether "I" like it or not.

 

It is just one other way that the magical experiences of this realm get squashed, in my experience.

Then Why would you post on No One's PL that he was an alt? (ironic anyway, since he isn't)

 

♪ Hypocrisy ♫

[Zyrxae]

I can assure you, it ain't hard to spot an alt, even without tools.

I used to imagine that dst kept a fantastic, organized record of every item and creature transferred since the logs (and especially the automated Trading Inquisitors) were implemented, and that she had written a program to sift through the data and inform her who wasn't whose alt and who had spent a suspiciously long time not trading with/attacking/casting spells on whom. (The sheer size of a log of all battles leads me to doubt its existence, but the other logs are fair game.) That is, a synthesis of "admin tools" (and MDA logs) aside from the actual alt-checker could theoretically yield a de facto alt checker.

But the longer I spend in MD, the easier it gets to spot people's mannerisms, and I agree with Rhaegar that if a person's accounts don't act like separate people, they shouldn't expect to be treated as such. Nicola had every right to form her own opinions of dst's words or actions, but dst also has the right to spot similarities between Nicola's words and Phantom Orchid's—and, rude as it may be, to speak freely of her suspicions.
 

Then Why would you post on No One's PL that he was an alt? (ironic anyway, since he isn't)

Knowing full well that while dst and No one are not alts, they're close enough friends that they often act in tandem, Phantom Orchid posted what she considered to be a humorous jibe on No one's public log.
This was just one splat of mud in a war that increasingly seems like it won't end with anything short of either the banning of each of the involved parties from all of MD on alternating weeks for back-and-forth violations of the harassment rule, or with one or more of said parties leaving the realm entirely.

[Burns]

1) Changed title, because for a civilized discussion, it's not helpful to start with 'dst was mean to me' and then claim that it wasn't meant like that.

 

 

2) Hid a few posts, if all you have to do is exchange niceties, use a PM. I'll gladly show you how to open one if you have trouble with that.

 

 

3) More flame -> Thread gone. Personally, i like it hot, but as mod, not so much.

[dst]

Since my post was hidden, here it is:

 

Alts of phantom orchid: Amuse, Log Lady, Nicola Blabla.

 

More to come when I will spot them.