Target (All): Creature Diversity & Creature Upgrade Value

[Azthor]

Disclaimer: I have not, in any way or fashion, checked the veracity of the data below, it being taken directly from http://magicduel.inv...92-combat-talk/. Should you find any factual mistakes, inform me of such within this thread and this post will be edited accordingly. New suggestions, where pertinent to the topic, will likewise be added.

 

I - With the inherent stats of creatures supposedly reduced in value in view of significantly greater personal and token-derived stats, the targeting variant concentrates much of a creature's worth within a ritual. Target: All, being able to target every creature of the opponent's with no drawbacks, has been criticized to make other choices, and creatures lacking it, something of a foregone conclusion.

 

II - Concurrently, the concern has been raised that Target: All is present as it is, as the most advantageous option, and found in some of the creatures that would be among the most powerful even in lieu of it, as a way of bolstering  the worth of those creatures and their upgraded forms, which were, accordingly, meant to be ultimate choices of a kind, and hence foregone conclusions as intended. Whether that remains desirable, or is in line with their former rarity, is up to debate.

 

III - Tal's tests, available on the Unit Limits thread (link below), seemingly indicate that there is some measure of competitive balance between the potential damage of most creatures, if properly supported by premium or rare creatures. In that regard, it might be more interesting to modify those abilities that imbalance said template, as is the case with Freeze, rather than Target: All itself, as long some creatures with single targeting maintain some modicum of usefulness, as has been demonstrated to be the case.

 

Index:

 

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15716-aurasbonuses-creature-boost-skill-drain-vitality-drain-freeze-antifreeze-tokens-availability-order-opportunity-value/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15721-target-all-creature-diversity-creature-upgrade-value/

Defend, Intoxicate, Martyrism & Protect: Availability, Opportunity Value & Targets

Heal & Regenerate: Opportunity Value, Targets & Upper Limit

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15734-rustgold-drachorns-reindrachs-wind-dragons-mutual-creature-boost/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15733-unit-limits-angiens-drachorns-archers/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15748-weaken-defense-lower-limit/

Honor & Negative Stats: Lower Limit

Honor & Balance: Intended Function & Current Application

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15763-reducing-the-power-of-freezes/

 

Discussion status: undefined.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Azthor

[Rophs]

The niche role that all fills is the "you will always damage/weaken everything" role, which means that with very few exceptions choosing target all will be the best decision. When choosing the targets for a creature targeting all there is very little in the form of meaningful decisions that must be made. Because of this it can be said that All is toxic to the metagame because it eliminates the player's need to make meaningful choices at higher levels of combat. Toxic mechanics should be reworked to make the metagame more healthy.

 

To rework All it can be useful to decide why it was decided for All to work the way it does now. It appears to me that All was meant to be a direct upgrade from Multirandom, instead of hitting anywhere from two to four creatures you will always hit all six. That's a simple idea, but it also means that there would be no reason to use All instead of Multirandom or Single Target when it is available. All should be replaced with one or more abilities that allow a player to make a meaningful decision that thematically fits with the idea of Multirandom and feels like an upgrade, but still forces the player to make a meaningful choice.

 

My proposed solution is to replace All with two separate abilites. One would hit 1-3 creatures, the other would hit 4-6 creatures (doing nothing if there are only one, two, or three creatures). This gives both sides of the fight a meaningful decision. Players would very how many creatures they use in a ritual along with what targets the creatures would use.

[Ary Endleg]

I'm thinking about what kind of downside could be applied to target All to lower it's convenience in totally killing everything in one blow yet still keeping it as "better" than rest.

 

Some ideas for reworking target all:

• make it target up to 5 creatures at once
• make it target up to N-1 number of creatures as long as N is higher than 1 (in other words if there are 6 creatures it would target 5, if there are 3 creatures it would target 2, if there is one, it would target that one)
• make it less effective by nerfing the value of subsequent hits (for example first creature it hits takes full damage, second one gets 80%, third gets 60%, forth takes 40%, fifth and sixth take 20% of damage) but I doubt this solution would do much good or solve any problem of tactical usage, probably resulting into another luck factor between players of high stats

[Ary Endleg]

Good post Rophs.

 

At first I didn't liked your suggestions, but after thinking it a bit over. I don't really see much problem with them. However Target 4-6 sounds so weird, it will hit 4, 5 or 6 creatures, but if there are 3 or less it will miss everything :)) sounds so weird. No I can't squash 3 bugs there are too few of them, I can't hit them, but if there are 4, sure I'll smack them all :)) There is problem with this, because it would be always picked. Freezes will guarantee it. If one goes with less than 4 creatures, he is going to get frozen thus target 4-6 would always hit because people would get surely frozen otherwise. It also adds luck effect, if other player has 6 creats and you aren't lucky enough to hit all 6 but hit 4 or 5 instead and kill them, your creature won't be able to target anymore, skipping it's turn, thus player is forced to still combine it with something, probably with same creature set on target 1-3. It's a good idea, important thing is that single creature loses ability to mop up full ritual in single blow at start of combat.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Ary Endleg

[Rophs]

Why can't multirandom hit a single creature? Thematically the Grasan should be able to hit a single creature if it can also hit a ritual containing two creatures. The same argument exists for current mechanics.

 

In pokemon double battles there are moves that hit both enemy pokemon. Notable examples include rock slide and dazzling gleam. But these moves do .75 as much damage as if they would be used in a single battle. You still do 1.5x damage but you lose the ability to quickly remove a single major threat. Adding a .75 multiplier for every creature hit after the first one leads to a creature on target all dealing about 1.42x as much damage compared to when it would have hit only a single creature.

 

I propose another solution:

• Let n be the number of slots in the opponent's ritual containing creatures with vitality above zero
• A creature targeting all in your ritual would deal .75^(n-1) to each individual creature in the opponents ritual when it acts

 

Could also be applied to healing/martyrism of all allied creatures, or to lifestealers.

[Ary Endleg]

Yeah well I mean nothing is wrong with target 4-6, whole concept of those multirandom creatures is something I always find funny, but if they were to hit single creatures, there would be no point in single target.

 

Yes I dislike idea that hitting multiple targets just simply multiplies the damage, I too think it should do less than full damage times number of creats. Such tweek would be nice and would be useful in fights with no stats/tokens. In high stats combat this tweek would depreciate the value of attack stat while appreciate the value of defense and ve stats. Still wouldn't change the target all supremacy on it's own.

 

I like the formula and overall scaling, should it really be 75% that's debatable. It would mean nerf of 4 times. For example 80% is 3 times the nerf. If nerf is too big, then this concept also must be applied to multirandom, even if it's lower, people will probably still wonder where is the logic in multirandom scaling linearly while "All" has it lowered for each creature it hits.

[Rophs]

If you don't want .75 then here's how much damage would be dealt with the formula n*m**(n-1) where n is the number of targets and m is the coefficient of reduction for every coefficient of reduction between 0 and 1.0 with two or fewer significant figures:

[spoiler]

 

mult: 0
1: 1
2: 0
3: 0
4: 0
5: 0
6: 0
mult: 0.01
1: 1.0
2: 0.02
3: 0.0003
4: 4e-06
5: 5e-08
6: 6e-10
mult: 0.02
1: 1.0
2: 0.04
3: 0.0012
4: 3.2e-05
5: 8e-07
6: 1.92e-08
mult: 0.03
1: 1.0
2: 0.06
3: 0.0027
4: 0.000108
5: 4.05e-06
6: 1.458e-07
mult: 0.04
1: 1.0
2: 0.08
3: 0.0048
4: 0.000256
5: 1.28e-05
6: 6.144e-07
mult: 0.05
1: 1.0
2: 0.1
3: 0.0075
4: 0.0005
5: 3.125e-05
6: 1.875e-06
mult: 0.06
1: 1.0
2: 0.12
3: 0.0108
4: 0.000864
5: 6.48e-05
6: 4.6656e-06
mult: 0.07
1: 1.0
2: 0.14
3: 0.0147
4: 0.001372
5: 0.00012005
6: 1.00842e-05
mult: 0.08
1: 1.0
2: 0.16
3: 0.0192
4: 0.002048
5: 0.0002048
6: 1.96608e-05
mult: 0.09
1: 1.0
2: 0.18
3: 0.0243
4: 0.002916
5: 0.00032805
6: 3.54294e-05
mult: 0.1
1: 1.0
2: 0.2
3: 0.03
4: 0.004
5: 0.0005
6: 6e-05
mult: 0.11
1: 1.0
2: 0.22
3: 0.0363
4: 0.005324
5: 0.00073205
6: 9.66306e-05
mult: 0.12
1: 1.0
2: 0.24
3: 0.0432
4: 0.006912
5: 0.0010368
6: 0.0001492992
mult: 0.13
1: 1.0
2: 0.26
3: 0.0507
4: 0.008788
5: 0.00142805
6: 0.0002227758
mult: 0.14
1: 1.0
2: 0.28
3: 0.0588
4: 0.010976
5: 0.0019208
6: 0.0003226944
mult: 0.15
1: 1.0
2: 0.3
3: 0.0675
4: 0.0135
5: 0.00253125
6: 0.000455625
mult: 0.16
1: 1.0
2: 0.32
3: 0.0768
4: 0.016384
5: 0.0032768
6: 0.0006291456
mult: 0.17
1: 1.0
2: 0.34
3: 0.0867
4: 0.019652
5: 0.00417605
6: 0.0008519142
mult: 0.18
1: 1.0
2: 0.36
3: 0.0972
4: 0.023328
5: 0.0052488
6: 0.0011337408
mult: 0.19
1: 1.0
2: 0.38
3: 0.1083
4: 0.027436
5: 0.00651605
6: 0.0014856594
mult: 0.2
1: 1.0
2: 0.4
3: 0.12
4: 0.032
5: 0.008
6: 0.00192
mult: 0.21
1: 1.0
2: 0.42
3: 0.1323
4: 0.037044
5: 0.00972405
6: 0.0024504606
mult: 0.22
1: 1.0
2: 0.44
3: 0.1452
4: 0.042592
5: 0.0117128
6: 0.0030921792
mult: 0.23
1: 1.0
2: 0.46
3: 0.1587
4: 0.048668
5: 0.01399205
6: 0.0038618058
mult: 0.24
1: 1.0
2: 0.48
3: 0.1728
4: 0.055296
5: 0.0165888
6: 0.0047775744
mult: 0.25
1: 1.0
2: 0.5
3: 0.1875
4: 0.0625
5: 0.01953125
6: 0.005859375
mult: 0.26
1: 1.0
2: 0.52
3: 0.2028
4: 0.070304
5: 0.0228488
6: 0.0071288256
mult: 0.27
1: 1.0
2: 0.54
3: 0.2187
4: 0.078732
5: 0.02657205
6: 0.0086093442
mult: 0.28
1: 1.0
2: 0.56
3: 0.2352
4: 0.087808
5: 0.0307328
6: 0.0103262208
mult: 0.29
1: 1.0
2: 0.58
3: 0.2523
4: 0.097556
5: 0.03536405
6: 0.0123066894
mult: 0.3
1: 1.0
2: 0.6
3: 0.27
4: 0.108
5: 0.0405
6: 0.01458
mult: 0.31
1: 1.0
2: 0.62
3: 0.2883
4: 0.119164
5: 0.04617605
6: 0.0171774906
mult: 0.32
1: 1.0
2: 0.64
3: 0.3072
4: 0.131072
5: 0.0524288
6: 0.0201326592
mult: 0.33
1: 1.0
2: 0.66
3: 0.3267
4: 0.143748
5: 0.05929605
6: 0.0234812358
mult: 0.34
1: 1.0
2: 0.68
3: 0.3468
4: 0.157216
5: 0.0668168
6: 0.0272612544
mult: 0.35
1: 1.0
2: 0.7
3: 0.3675
4: 0.1715
5: 0.07503125
6: 0.031513125
mult: 0.36
1: 1.0
2: 0.72
3: 0.3888
4: 0.186624
5: 0.0839808
6: 0.0362797056
mult: 0.37
1: 1.0
2: 0.74
3: 0.4107
4: 0.202612
5: 0.09370805
6: 0.0416063742
mult: 0.38
1: 1.0
2: 0.76
3: 0.4332
4: 0.219488
5: 0.1042568
6: 0.0475411008
mult: 0.39
1: 1.0
2: 0.78
3: 0.4563
4: 0.237276
5: 0.11567205
6: 0.0541345194
mult: 0.4
1: 1.0
2: 0.8
3: 0.48
4: 0.256
5: 0.128
6: 0.06144
mult: 0.41
1: 1.0
2: 0.82
3: 0.5043
4: 0.275684
5: 0.14128805
6: 0.0695137206
mult: 0.42
1: 1.0
2: 0.84
3: 0.5292
4: 0.296352
5: 0.1555848
6: 0.0784147392
mult: 0.43
1: 1.0
2: 0.86
3: 0.5547
4: 0.318028
5: 0.17094005
6: 0.0882050658
mult: 0.44
1: 1.0
2: 0.88
3: 0.5808
4: 0.340736
5: 0.1874048
6: 0.0989497344
mult: 0.45
1: 1.0
2: 0.9
3: 0.6075
4: 0.3645
5: 0.20503125
6: 0.110716875
mult: 0.46
1: 1.0
2: 0.92
3: 0.6348
4: 0.389344
5: 0.2238728
6: 0.1235777856
mult: 0.47
1: 1.0
2: 0.94
3: 0.6627
4: 0.415292
5: 0.24398405
6: 0.1376070042
mult: 0.48
1: 1.0
2: 0.96
3: 0.6912
4: 0.442368
5: 0.2654208
6: 0.1528823808
mult: 0.49
1: 1.0
2: 0.98
3: 0.7203
4: 0.470596
5: 0.28824005
6: 0.1694851494
mult: 0.5
1: 1.0
2: 1.0
3: 0.75
4: 0.5
5: 0.3125
6: 0.1875
mult: 0.51
1: 1.0
2: 1.02
3: 0.7803
4: 0.530604
5: 0.33826005
6: 0.2070151506
mult: 0.52
1: 1.0
2: 1.04
3: 0.8112
4: 0.562432
5: 0.3655808
6: 0.2281224192
mult: 0.53
1: 1.0
2: 1.06
3: 0.8427
4: 0.595508
5: 0.39452405
6: 0.2509172958
mult: 0.54
1: 1.0
2: 1.08
3: 0.8748
4: 0.629856
5: 0.4251528
6: 0.2754990144
mult: 0.55
1: 1.0
2: 1.1
3: 0.9075
4: 0.6655
5: 0.45753125
6: 0.301970625
mult: 0.56
1: 1.0
2: 1.12
3: 0.9408
4: 0.702464
5: 0.4917248
6: 0.3304390656
mult: 0.57
1: 1.0
2: 1.14
3: 0.9747
4: 0.740772
5: 0.52780005
6: 0.3610152342
mult: 0.58
1: 1.0
2: 1.16
3: 1.0092
4: 0.780448
5: 0.5658248
6: 0.3938140608
mult: 0.59
1: 1.0
2: 1.18
3: 1.0443
4: 0.821516
5: 0.60586805
6: 0.4289545794
mult: 0.6
1: 1.0
2: 1.2
3: 1.08
4: 0.864
5: 0.648
6: 0.46656
mult: 0.61
1: 1.0
2: 1.22
3: 1.1163
4: 0.907924
5: 0.69229205
6: 0.5067577806
mult: 0.62
1: 1.0
2: 1.24
3: 1.1532
4: 0.953312
5: 0.7388168
6: 0.5496796992
mult: 0.63
1: 1.0
2: 1.26
3: 1.1907
4: 1.000188
5: 0.78764805
6: 0.5954619258
mult: 0.64
1: 1.0
2: 1.28
3: 1.2288
4: 1.048576
5: 0.8388608
6: 0.6442450944
mult: 0.65
1: 1.0
2: 1.3
3: 1.2675
4: 1.0985
5: 0.89253125
6: 0.696174375
mult: 0.66
1: 1.0
2: 1.32
3: 1.3068
4: 1.149984
5: 0.9487368
6: 0.7513995456
mult: 0.67
1: 1.0
2: 1.34
3: 1.3467
4: 1.203052
5: 1.00755605
6: 0.8100750642
mult: 0.68
1: 1.0
2: 1.36
3: 1.3872
4: 1.257728
5: 1.0690688
6: 0.8723601408
mult: 0.69
1: 1.0
2: 1.38
3: 1.4283
4: 1.314036
5: 1.13335605
6: 0.9384188094
mult: 0.7
1: 1.0
2: 1.4
3: 1.47
4: 1.372
5: 1.2005
6: 1.00842
mult: 0.71
1: 1.0
2: 1.42
3: 1.5123
4: 1.431644
5: 1.27058405
6: 1.0825376106
mult: 0.72
1: 1.0
2: 1.44
3: 1.5552
4: 1.492992
5: 1.3436928
6: 1.1609505792
mult: 0.73
1: 1.0
2: 1.46
3: 1.5987
4: 1.556068
5: 1.41991205
6: 1.2438429558
mult: 0.74
1: 1.0
2: 1.48
3: 1.6428
4: 1.620896
5: 1.4993288
6: 1.3314039744
mult: 0.75
1: 1.0
2: 1.5
3: 1.6875
4: 1.6875
5: 1.58203125
6: 1.423828125
mult: 0.76
1: 1.0
2: 1.52
3: 1.7328
4: 1.755904
5: 1.6681088
6: 1.5213152256
mult: 0.77
1: 1.0
2: 1.54
3: 1.7787
4: 1.826132
5: 1.75765205
6: 1.6240704942
mult: 0.78
1: 1.0
2: 1.56
3: 1.8252
4: 1.898208
5: 1.8507528
6: 1.7323046208
mult: 0.79
1: 1.0
2: 1.58
3: 1.8723
4: 1.972156
5: 1.94750405
6: 1.8462338394
mult: 0.8
1: 1.0
2: 1.6
3: 1.92
4: 2.048
5: 2.048
6: 1.96608
mult: 0.81
1: 1.0
2: 1.62
3: 1.9683
4: 2.125764
5: 2.15233605
6: 2.0920706406
mult: 0.82
1: 1.0
2: 1.64
3: 2.0172
4: 2.205472
5: 2.2606088
6: 2.2244390592
mult: 0.83
1: 1.0
2: 1.66
3: 2.0667
4: 2.287148
5: 2.37291605
6: 2.3634243858
mult: 0.84
1: 1.0
2: 1.68
3: 2.1168
4: 2.370816
5: 2.4893568
6: 2.5092716544
mult: 0.85
1: 1.0
2: 1.7
3: 2.1675
4: 2.4565
5: 2.61003125
6: 2.662231875
mult: 0.86
1: 1.0
2: 1.72
3: 2.2188
4: 2.544224
5: 2.7350408
6: 2.8225621056
mult: 0.87
1: 1.0
2: 1.74
3: 2.2707
4: 2.634012
5: 2.86448805
6: 2.9905255242
mult: 0.88
1: 1.0
2: 1.76
3: 2.3232
4: 2.725888
5: 2.9984768
6: 3.1663915008
mult: 0.89
1: 1.0
2: 1.78
3: 2.3763
4: 2.819876
5: 3.13711205
6: 3.3504356694
mult: 0.9
1: 1.0
2: 1.8
3: 2.43
4: 2.916
5: 3.2805
6: 3.54294
mult: 0.91
1: 1.0
2: 1.82
3: 2.4843
4: 3.014284
5: 3.42874805
6: 3.7441928706
mult: 0.92
1: 1.0
2: 1.84
3: 2.5392
4: 3.114752
5: 3.5819648
6: 3.9544891392
mult: 0.93
1: 1.0
2: 1.86
3: 2.5947
4: 3.217428
5: 3.74026005
6: 4.1741302158
mult: 0.94
1: 1.0
2: 1.88
3: 2.6508
4: 3.322336
5: 3.9037448
6: 4.4034241344
mult: 0.95
1: 1.0
2: 1.9
3: 2.7075
4: 3.4295
5: 4.07253125
6: 4.642685625
mult: 0.96
1: 1.0
2: 1.92
3: 2.7648
4: 3.538944
5: 4.2467328
6: 4.8922361856
mult: 0.97
1: 1.0
2: 1.94
3: 2.8227
4: 3.650692
5: 4.42646405
6: 5.1524041542
mult: 0.98
1: 1.0
2: 1.96
3: 2.8812
4: 3.764768
5: 4.6118408
6: 5.4235247808
mult: 0.99
1: 1.0
2: 1.98
3: 2.9403
4: 3.881196
5: 4.80298005
6: 5.7059402994
mult: 1.0
1: 1.0
2: 2.0
3: 3.0
4: 4.0
5: 5.0
6: 6.0

 

Source: http://repl.it/ZTV/2

[/spoiler]

 

Pick the one you feel is best :D

Bonus points of you can justify why not to use the one before or after it

 

 

Also, as to why multirandom has a better scaling:

With the formulum stated above target all would deal 100% damage to a single creature ritual, but multirandom wouldn't deal any damage. Give multirandom some scaling too.

 

Any statisticians?

Edited September 18, 2014 by Rophs

[No one]

@Ary: you have my replies to this in the original topic

 

[spoiler]

 

Why can't multirandom hit a single creature? Thematically the Grasan should be able to hit a single creature if it can also hit a ritual containing two creatures. The same argument exists for current mechanics.

 

In pokemon double battles there are moves that hit both enemy pokemon. Notable examples include rock slide and dazzling gleam. But these moves do .75 as much damage as if they would be used in a single battle. You still do 1.5x damage but you lose the ability to quickly remove a single major threat. Adding a .75 multiplier for every creature hit after the first one leads to a creature on target all dealing about 1.42x as much damage compared to when it would have hit only a single creature.

 

I propose another solution:

• Let n be the number of slots in the opponent's ritual containing creatures with vitality above zero
• A creature targeting all in your ritual would deal .75^(n-1) to each individual creature in the opponents ritual when it acts

 

Could also be applied to healing/martyrism of all allied creatures, or to lifestealers.

[/spoiler]

Incredible, really incredible. An entire topic of junk but this is too much.

 

@Rophs :

"Why can't multirandom hit a single creature?"

Just because. Want more, go back to learning how to fight and what each target / ability means and how it can be used.

 

"Could also be applied to healing/martyrism of all allied creatures, or to lifestealers."

Incredible, you don't like All with damage but you want it with "healing/martyrism"

 

Dude, you should be forbidden to talk about game mechanics or to express ideas.

I cannot reply to your posts, they simply too stupid. Just go back to RP / playing pokemon or simply play in the dirt for a couple more years.

Edited September 18, 2014 by No one

[Rophs]

@Ary: you have my replies to this in the original topic

 

[spoiler]

 

[/spoiler]

Incredible, really incredible. An entire topic of junk but this is too much.

 

@Rophs :

"Why can't multirandom hit a single creature?"

Just because. Want more, go back to learning how to fight and what each target / ability means and how it can be used.

This was a rhetiorical response to Ary's question of why target 4-6 in my first proposition couldn't hit an amount of creatures less than four. I will try to use more direct english next time. It could have been better phrased: "Ary, the reason why target 4-6 can't hit an amount of creatures less than four is the same reason multirandom cannot hit an amount of creatures less than two"

 

 

"Could also be applied to healing/martyrism of all allied creatures, or to lifestealers."

Incredible, you don't like All with damage but you want it with "healing/martyrism"

I was proposing that if damage could target all using the n*m**(n-1) formulum then a similar approach could be used to allow maryrism/lifesteal to target all without facing the imbalanced damage target all faces currently.

 

Dude, you should be forbidden to talk about game mechanics or to express ideas.

I cannot reply to your posts, they simply too stupid. Just go back to RP / playing pokemon or simply play in the dirt for a couple more years.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Keep in mind nowhere in my posts did I directly state I think the aforementioned changes should be implemented into the combat system I proposed them as potential partial solutions to a system that I currently consider to be very flawed. I do not claim that these solutions are perfect, merely less imperfect than the current system.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Rophs

[Azthor]

I would like to direct the discussion towards point II, first and foremost. I'd ill advise discussing alternative concepts without first properly contending with the present system's desirability.

 

Is it  reasonable to still consider those creatures rare, and justify their might by such? Whether or not is so, should every creature, max level assumed, be somehow feasible in a highly competitive environment, or should the system culminate in a given limited number of them, with others being steps in the ladder?

 

Additionally, changing Target (All) to anything else will have a very significant impact in combat, as Target (All) is an absolute ability, devoid of chance. Changing it to some variant of Target: (Multiple: Greater) is no minor readjustment, though it may, nevertheless and ironically, do nothing to make other creatures more desirable.

 

Finally, I'd like to note: outright winning a battle is not the sole purpose for which a creature may be used.

[Ary Endleg]

Rarity doesn't matter for target all, if target all is reworked, drachs isn't the only one at "loss". When comparing with other target all creatures, drach just has bunch of auras and a bit better stats. Specifically creatureboost and anti/freeze auras. His rarity value is evident in those things that give him the cut above the rest. Once target all is reworked, drach still stays at top of creature chain due to those advantages. Purpose is to make room in rituals for multiple viable creature combinations and 1 hit 6 kills prevents that.

[No one]

Can I ask you both what creatures use the "All" target  and what you have against each of them ?

[Ary Endleg]

Windy, GG, rusty, rein, grasan, chaos, bloodpact, pimped.

 

Nothing against creatures.

 

edit: I forgot about SW

Edited September 19, 2014 by Ary Endleg

[Rophs]

Is it  reasonable to still consider those creatures rare, and justify their might by such? Whether or not is so, should every creature, max level assumed, be somehow feasible in a highly competitive environment, or should the system culminate in a given limited number of them, with others being steps in the ladder?

Certainly not EVERY single creature, although a large majority of creatures should be viable in a competitive environment. A few examples of well-designed creatures that have appropriate power levels are Imperial Aramor, Anniversary Aramor (although in need of upgrades to be properly viable), Max Elemental, and Water Being.

 

Some Drachs are invariably better than other Drachs. Why use a GG if I have a Rein? Giving each Drach something interesting and unique so that when making a ritual using Drachs the player is forced to make multiple meaningful decisions about which Drachs to use would eliminate large amounts of imbalance.

 

Stuff every Drach Has:

• Target All
• Damage
• Creatureboost

 

Stuff only some Drachs Have:

• Freeze
• Antifreeze
• Probably something else I don't know about

 

I propose that each Drach receives a partial rework so that somebody using Drachs in their ritual will need to make multiple meaningful choices about which Drachs to use. I propose that each Drach receives a partial rework so that a ritual containing Drachs has a power level similar to other rituals when used in a competitive environment.

 

The following four proposed partial reworks to Drachs are made with the intent of giving each Drach an individual niche so that the two statements preceding this statement are fulfilled by the four proposed partial reworks to Drachs postceding this statement:

 

New GG Drach:

• Single Target
• Creatureboost (maybe double creatureboost)

The GG Drach is currently weak when objectively compared to other Drachs. Because the GG Drach is objectively weaker than the other Drachs there is no reason for a player to use the GG Drach when that player has other types of Drachs available in a competitive environment where game theory is applied in such a way to maximize a player's chances of victory. I claim that if the GG Drach has a niche filled by none of the other Drachs then the GG Drach will be viable and useful in a competitive fighting environment. In order to give the GG Drach a niche filled by none of the other Drachs. I have removed the creatureboost aura from all of the other Drachs with the intent of changing the GG Drach's niche so that GG Drach fills the niche of a creature that will not deal significant amounts of damage on its own but will make its allies deal more damage.

 

 

New Rustgold Drach:

• Single Target
• Double Freeze

The Rustgold Drach is currently weak when objectively compared to the Reindrach. Because the Rustgold Drach is objectively weaker than the Reindrach there is no reason for a player to use the Rustgold Drach when that player has other types of Drachs available in a competitive environment where game theory is applied in such a way to maximize a player's chances of victory. I claim that if the Rustgold Drach has a niche filled by none of the other Drachs then the Rustgold Drach will be viable and useful in a competitive fighting environment. In order to give the Rustgold Drach a niche filled by none of the other Drachs. I have removed the Freeze aura from all of the other Drachs and changed the Rustgold Drach's Freeze aura to a Double Freeze aura with the intent of changing the Rustgold Drach's niche so that the Rustgold Drach fills the niche of a creature that will not deal significant amounts of damage on its own but will freeze enemy creatures so that the enemy creatures will not be able to act during combat.

 

New Reindrach:

• Single Target
• Triple Antifreeze

The Reindrach is currently strong when objectively compared to any other Drach. Because the Reindrach is objectively stronger than all other Drachs there is no reason for a player to not use the Rein Drach when that player has other types of Drachs available in a competitive environment where game theory is applied in such a way to maximize a player's chances of victory. I claim that if the Reindrach has a niche filled by none of the other Drachs and that the niche the Reindrach fills is not the niche of the most powerful Drach then the Reindrach will remain viable and useful in a competitive fighting environment. I have removed the antifreeze aura from all other Drachs so that the Reindrach fills the niche of a creature that will not deal significant amounts of damage on its own but will unfreeze friendly creatures allowing them to act during combat.

 

New Wind Drach:

• Target All
• Attackboost (as opposed to creatureboost)

I do not know what the Wind Drach does when maxed. I have changed the Wind Drach so that it fills a niche missing from the Drach family under the four proposed partial reworks to Drachs contained in this forum post. I have removed Target All from all other Drachs and given the Wind Drach the Attackboost aura so that the Wind Drachs fills the niche of a creature capable of doing moderate damage on its own and significant damage when supported by other allied creatures.

 

 

The following two paragraphs refer to the rest of this forum post are exist to allow other players to better understand this forum post:

 

The above four partial reworks to Drachs is under the assumption the that FRAC Anti/Freeze system. I state the above four partial reworks to Drachs as my ideas and personal opinions. I do not claim the above four partial reworks to Drachs to be perfect. I claim that the above four partial reworks to Drachs are imperfect. I claim that the above four partial reworks to Drachs are probably less imperfect than the current state of Drachs. I claim that if the current state of Drachs less is imperfect than the proposed above four partial reworks to Drachs above then the above four partial reworks to Drachs can be modified so that they are less imperfect than the current state of Drachs. If you disagree with any parts of these claims then I encourage you to post a reply to this thread stating that you disagree with parts of these claims (including potentially all parts) and explanations as to why you disagree with each of the parts of these claims so that there will be minimal miscommunication of your intents, thoughts and ideas between you and anybody reading your forum post by directly refuting my claims and changing them in a way that you find less disagreeable.

 

This forum post contains my opinions. I do not claim that my opinions are facts. This forum post contains some statements which are factual. To help differentiate between statements containing my opinions and statements containing facts I have italicized every factual statement. If you think that I have mistakenly italicized text containing opinions or left text containing facts unitalicized then I encourage you to send me a Forum PM stating that you think that I have mistakenly italicized text containing opinions or left text containing facts unitalicized and references indicating which sections of text you think should be italicized or unitalicized.

[DARK DEMON]

Lol, GG's are the strongest when paired up with rusty, imo ^_^

[Ary Endleg]

What DD said.

 

GG doesn't have creatboost. Moreover do you know what creatboost is and how it works? I don't get what doublecreatboost should be, the double amount of creatboost? This is insane, creatboosts should be getting nerfs! Ask Burns.

 

Your whole hard work regarding this idea is wasted due to above things.

[DARK DEMON]

For Rophs' info, creatureboost is a percentage boost to fellow creatures, eg 20% at lowest level, that keeps increasing with each level, reaching perhaps 80% at max level of the creature. <--- just an example

Edited September 19, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Ary Endleg]

Also it will be applied only to specific type of creature. For example Rusty will only boost stats of GG.

[Rophs]

I have planned revisions to the partial reworks stated above and will write them up ASAP.

[Burns]

@Rophs: wrong track, single target with normal damaging abilities is too weak by far.

My outbox doesn't save messages that long, maybe you can still find the original message in the council inbox, it'd be around March 10th 2013.

 

Basically, i suggested to reduce the creature limit of Drachorns to 2 and Archers to 3 to lower the crit-boosting to a more reasonable level. With less drachorn boosting, we could also do with just 2 Angiens per rit, because you don't need to have 3 to counter boosted drachs anymore.

Additionally, we could give drachorns a boost that applies to winds and winds one that applies to drachorns, similar to how angiens and tainted angiens boost each other up. This way wind would get a higher spot in the foodchain, and you can make a meaningful choice when you use drachorns: either more damage with a wind, or more freeze and antifreeze with rust or rein.

 

This might just shift the ultimate power spike from 3 drachs towards 2 drachs, 2 angiens and 2 morphs, but it would definitely reduce the amount of stackable freezes and antifreezes, and lower the upfront damage output of a drach rit by 50%.

 

Elaborating off that:

Drachorn, Rusty, Rein and Wind are in the same family and get their limit lowered to 2 (so do angiens, and archers go down to 3)

 

Stats stay as they are, they keep their 'all' option and their current attack options.

 

GG drach additinally gets a crit boost aura that applies on wind dragons with 2.0 on max level, and wind dragon gets a crit-boost that applies to gg drach with 2.0 on max level.

Rust and Rein keep their crit-boost and apply only to gg drachs, as they currently do.

 

This opens up different rituals, where one combination hits harder, and the other grants more supportive auras, without lowering the value of the first rust or rein a player gets (don't forget that they come relatively expensive in shop, they need to be valueable on their own as well).

 

 

The drachorns are not oppressively overpowered on their own, it's the multiplicative nature of crit-boost that makes them so. I used to know the exact values, but can't find my spreadsheets anymore... I think the rein has a crit-boost of 3.2, which is high, but not overpowered in itself since the drachorns are still just normal damagers. It's just that you can throw 2 reins on a drach and get a total boost of 3.2 x 3.2 on your flat attack plus 3 additional afs, which makes a whole lot of difference.

[Ary Endleg]

Windy already has creatboost or is the value lower?

 

Also, by lowering number of drachs in ritual you slow down the grinding :D

 

When you throw double rein with gg you also get rein doing weaken defense, with 1/6th of your stats (if you have high stats) or 1/3rd or between, depending on how many creats are used and % influences. Both reins will hit with their weaken before gg does damage, because reins have higher base init, effectively boosting yet again the damage of gg.

[No one]

Windy, GG, rusty, rein, grasan, chaos, bloodpact, pimped.

 

Nothing against creatures.

 

edit: I forgot about SW

 

It seems that you have a perception issue.

So, I agree with the list as a list of creatures using "All" as target but I disagree with changing their ability.

Windy, rusty, rein, bloodpact, pimped grasan are paid (shop) creatures or even more a rare gift (drachorn) and they are supposed (as a mandatory feature) to be stronger. If you can afford to have 6 of each it doesn't make them common but it makes you richer. They are supposed to give you an edge in battles, it is a commonly known fact.

 

All that remains is the grasan and the chaos. They both have their weakness and it seems that they are well balanced against the other creatures like LR archer , knator, and whatever is there for the damage.

 

Again : it seems that you are upset that there are players with more stats then you (and / or more money).

There is nothing we can do for you then to advise you to play harder or to pay more.

 

Oh, I remembered : there is a book for you ( I forgot its name) that it would give you some +/- 1m attack/def (if I am not mistaken). Someone , please share this book with our friend Ary here.

[Burns]

I think you're referencing Mammon's Book there.

 

Also, sorry Ary, forgot to respond:

Wind Dragon already features a creature boost, but the boost on GG would be new. Currently, wind dragon is not viable outside of no-stat tournaments, despite having WAY better stats than the GG drach. In comparison with most other crits, maybe leaving out the angiens, it would be godlike, but due to the amount of stats you can grow, his immense base stats are meaningless and he doesn't get any boosters like the drach does.

[No one]

Yes, that is the one, Mammon's Book. As I remember it was granted as a free item to be gifted around.

Who has it currently ? Can it be granted to Ary for a while ? :)

[Syrian]

if im not mistaken the book is currently held by Zyrxae, who is inactive