Rituals

[Gchick]

I was wondering, what about if we designated an area for healing rituals? It would make it easier to find people that also need them, instead of running around everywhere trying to find anyone. (Especially difficult for MP4, which seem to be a very rare breed)

[meiche]

It's a shame you can't do that in a sanctuary...pretty much designated for healing. Is there anyway to designate a rit as a non-offensive attack and allow it in the areas already set aside?

[Gchick]

After actually reading the thread (yes I am bad..), I second the motion for a template or some sort.

Trying to find MP4's is impossible, and just spamming one ritual also doesn't make sense, especially when you are trying to upgrade creatures, which then automatically ruins the ritual (as the creature that you bound it to technically doesn't exist anymore)

[Calyx of Isis]

you can mass produce a particular ritual if you click on the button repeatedly

No, you can't. Maybe once upon a time this was possible, but not at this time.

[Glaistig]

I can. Or I could earlier today.

It may not be possible if your connection is really fast and your mouse very difficult (or your fingers fumbling). Remember, this is the last button in ritual creation.

[Calyx of Isis]

I think what Kentor meant that after dying creatures can forget the ritual, but player (character) should remember what it consisted of. And in case ritual was broken player could remake it with only one click, provided that all required creatures are alive...

I can't believe that the people here do not understand the concept of a template... If one has multiple of the same kind of creature and all are healthy, then any of that creature type can fill that slot in the template.

We all use templates. It works like, "Yeah, I had two dark archers doing weakening, one barren healer, etc." It's not a hard concept people.

In the real world and in Magic Duel we learn by creating and amending just these sort of templates. Think about the mental process you go through when creating new rituals or recreating old ones. It's all about memory and templates. There is no reason why the UI cannot aid rather than hamper the process other than our own limited vision. As so much of the came centers around rituals and their maintenance, it is sad that this UI is about the poorest in the game.

There is no reason why one should not be able to devise and set a defense (or attack) ritual while in sanctuary. In a "real" Magic Duel world or in the real world, this is what each and every one of us would do. In the real world we work on our rituals both in sanctuary and in the field. That Magic Duel does not have an interface that allows us to work on rituals at any time other than when we are jeopardy is a failing, not a feature.

The interface for devising and discarding rituals should be available at any time. The only thing keeping things as they are is linkage between the interface for selecting an attack ritual and the interface for creating a ritual. They are separate actions. As every ritual MUST (at present) be bound to a name, there is no reason why one interface could not manage rituals while another would select an existing ritual to use for attack. Of course, the attack interface could still provide the capabilities of ritual maintenance.

As a programmer with almost four decades of experience I see no problems in implementing such interfaces.

[Glaistig]

You sound quite frustrated. I personally apologize for not understanding what a template is when it is not a hard concept, although I doubt many others will.

I agree with the part about creating rituals without having to have a target in your mindpower. Honestly, I'd like for that to be done as soon as possible if there are no opposing arguments, as it greatly interferes with gameplay (considering the convenience it would be to not have to go through all the hassle of finding someone to attack just to create another rit). I don't know if it's on Manu's to-do list or not, and where, either.

About the template part, that would make sense, except the ritual process represents the impressing of actions into your creatures' mind, not your own. Say you have a dog, and you teach it some tricks. If you had another dog with the same personality and ability, it would take just as long to teach it the same tricks. In the magicduel world, your creatures are like new creatures whenever they are defeated. They have the same abilities, but they cannot remember anything they learned that wasn't already characteristic and in their nature, including what actions to take in a designated fight.

You may think it is a huge hassle, but I don't. Really, if you know what ritual you have been using, you are already able to make it more quickly, just as you described in your example of how templates related to the real world. It doesn't take more than fifteen seconds for me to set a ritual that recently got broken (if I have been making similar ones). The way it is now realistically reflects the magicduel world concepts.

Feel free to counter any of my arguments; I'm sure there are plenty of points against them. Discussion is important.. just remember that frustration is useless.

[Calyx of Isis]

Say you have a dog, and you teach it some tricks. If you had another dog with the same personality and ability, it would take just as long to teach it the same tricks. In the magicduel world, your creatures are like new creatures whenever they are defeated. They have the same abilities, but they cannot remember anything they learned that wasn't already characteristic and in their nature, including what actions to take in a designated fight.

I like the dog analogy. However, suppose I teach a bunch of dogs to walk on their forepaws in a specific formation. If one becomes disabled I have to train another, but the other dogs do not forget what they've learned. -- Ok, this is the case where some creatures "survive" and others don't.

Part of the issue is that not even Manu is completely certain if the creature exist as physical entities. (At least, that's what I get from the posts I've read so far.) If the creatures are manifestations of ourselves and exist a physical entities only during combat, then the issue is what the player remembers.

That rituals the succeed become more powerful over time (combo count) happens regardless of how one's visualizes the creatures.

Another though on templates. I had a ritual with combo=19. I tossed it in an attack on the loreroot guards. Now that ritual still has great value to me, even if I have to train new creatures. I know the ritual is effective and in what circumstances. The template, i.e. the ability to recreate the ritual, represents (to some degree) the knowledge I retain about my ritual regardless of which creatures I train to execute it.

The sticking point is, I think, that some view the ritual as simply the knowledge of the actions required to obtain a specified effect. Others view both the knowledge and the individual creatures that use it as inseparable. In asking for templates we do not invalidate the need to train creatures; the reconstituted ritual/creature combonation has no combo value. By calling the statistic combo Manu seems to indicate that the recipe and the creatures are distinct and combine to form a useful combination. Again, the recipe (template) is not lost simply because the creatures have been drained of vitality. (I have the impression that there is no "death" here, and that zero vitality represents something other than death.)

[Calyx of Isis]

I was wondering, what about if we designated an area for healing rituals? It would make it easier to find people that also need them, instead of running around everywhere trying to find anyone. (Especially difficult for MP4, which seem to be a very rare breed)

WoW! What a wonderful idea. I would support this wholeheartedly. However, I am not certain if the combat engine has the ability to distinguish between "combat" intended to heal, and "combat" intended to harm. I certainly have seen no such ability as an MP3. Comments by higher level players suggest to me that the combat engine can make some broad classifications of combat, but I'm not certain it is capable (at this time) of supporting a healing only region.

On the other hand... It would be nice to be able to enter a temple and know that I can safely perform healing rituals there.

[Glaistig]

I can sort of see what you're saying, although only flitting momentarily before flying out of my head. DX However, I don't really see a need for any changes to the ritual system; it works well enough and it would be a lot of work and effort which could be spent on other things. Maybe when larger problems are fixed.

I have no idea how programming works or what the engine is like, but I'm guessing that creating a safe haven for healing rituals would also be difficult. Probably you could do something like form a pact with several players to make that area your healing place, and spread the words to others who use healing rituals. Say a player attacks after being warned that it would convenience players: all the players who wish to discourage such activity can band up and give retribution.

I'm thinking there should be a such a designated area for regen rituals to lose exp..

[Lulu]

Trying to find MP4's is impossible, and just spamming one ritual also doesn't make sense, especially when you are trying to upgrade creatures, which then automatically ruins the ritual (as the creature that you bound it to technically doesn't exist anymore)

I heard somewhere from someone that I don't remember that a ritual still works when your creatures upgrades as long as it still has the ability/target option as was assigned to it in the ritual, because they go by creature ID, not name/level. I don't know if I ever verified this, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it works. . . and I don't get how spamming a ritual wouldn't make sense while a button that allows you to recreate it would. If, uh, that was what you wanted. DX Granted, there's a certain convenience in just clicking a button after a ritual breaks rather than spamming several beforehand, though really, making several before it breaks isn't bad either, if you want to keep the same def. rit, so that you don't have to worry about not knowing when it breaks (I think some player suggested an alert for when that happens) except that when eventually all your spammed rituals break, you wouldn't be able to make it again with one click like you would with a recreate button. But I still don't see how a recreate button would be of any more use than spamming one ritual if ruined rituals due to upgraded creatures are the problem.

Urk. . . I never did learn how to present my thoughts in an organized, clear manner.

About the recreate button again; I said before that there's an appealing convenience in it, but I also see the having-to-go-through-several-buttons process as a sort of way to prove that you know the ritual you want to use again. Although I suppose that's actually not all that smart since it can't be that hard to remember a ritual in anycase. But it's also a penance for the ritual failing to work (win), and muh. . .

I remember there were other issues and ideas discussed, but I either never figured what exactly they were about or did and then let it out of my brain. >_>; I do that a lot, sorry.

[Bootes]

I can Understand the Frustration in Having to Recreate your Rituals, but I agree with Glaistig. It's not really necessary to have a recreate, or a template for Rituals.

From my Own experience I find it's actually Better to Not keep reusing the Same ritual.

1) If you just Set up the same ritual over and over again, It just begs someone to Make a Counter Ritual and keep destroying yours. At MP3 Conter Rituals don't mean much due to lack in Variety of Creautres, but in MP4 and especially MP5 it become Huge.

2) As Lulu Pointed out When a Creautre Upgrades it still exists in a Ritual, but often Upgraded creatures Don't have the Same Targets, or abilities, and sometimes this can make that Creature Unusable in Battle. For Example, I recently Upgraded my Bird, it used to Target Strong Creatures, and it Now targets Multiple. I was reading my battle log, and Realized it was still trying to Attack Strong, and just didn't attack.

3) Well You need to try new things. Having to go through the Ritual creation Process forces you to Rethink Decisions, and maybe try something New. I think this is the main Reason Manu wants Rituals to Die (other than Combo Bonus . It's much like how you restart the Story at every MP level. It may seen tediuse, but it forces you to stop that exta second and maybe think "I'll Try something New"

Having Said all that, I do Think there needs to be a way to Set Rituals without targeting a Player, or at least allow Setting Rituals in a Sanctuary. My worst Experience with this was During the Heads Contest, I tries using the Hour long Shield thing, and found that since I couldn't attack I had no control over my Rituals.

[Gchick]

WoW! What a wonderful idea. I would support this wholeheartedly. However, I am not certain if the combat engine has the ability to distinguish between "combat" intended to heal, and "combat" intended to harm. I certainly have seen no such ability as an MP3. Comments by higher level players suggest to me that the combat engine can make some broad classifications of combat, but I'm not certain it is capable (at this time) of supporting a healing only region.

On the other hand... It would be nice to be able to enter a temple and know that I can safely perform healing rituals there.

I have no idea how programming works or what the engine is like, but I'm guessing that creating a safe haven for healing rituals would also be difficult. Probably you could do something like form a pact with several players to make that area your healing place, and spread the words to others who use healing rituals. Say a player attacks after being warned that it would convenience players: all the players who wish to discourage such activity can band up and give retribution.

I'm thinking there should be a such a designated area for regen rituals to lose exp..

Well it doesn't necessarily have to be a safe place like a sanctuary, but maybe just an agreement among players to go there if you want healing rituals, and just abide by it. Kine of like people not attacking each other in Wodins area.

[meiche]

Ok, so I just don't think that if I win 12 battles with a rit a wipeout should negate it. If I loose 13 yes, but it really sucks to loose a great rit with just one battle. I think if the wins outweight the losses, maybe you should have to rebind it, but have some memory of it. At a certain point (10+ maybe?) I think it's fair to say you have memorized it.

[Talmar]

I definitely think that there should be a way to set up rituals without entering combat. It really makes NO sense that you need to attack someone before you can tell your creatures what you expect of them. And you should also be able to auto-bind an old ritual over again, instead of needing to go back and redo it. You would, of course, loose your wins for that ritual, and start over with it from scratch. This is just to save the player some time in creating his rituals over again.

I have been attacked a LOT of times just trying to set up a ritual to attack someone with. Only to find that the game auto-selects a ritual for me, because I was attacked, and had some or all of my creatures I was about to use get killed! Being able to select a ritual in a safe place would save a lot of time and frustration. Especially once the game gets even more crowded, and you have people attacking you all over the place, as soon as you move. (and YES, this WILL happen! This is a PvP game, and it will be just like every other PvP game out there, where if people see you weak, they will jump you fast!)

So there will need to be a way for the player to prepare himself/herself