Getting honor if you won a fight while you are attacked and lower mp levels can attack higher mp levels

[Alex40014]

What do you guys find about something like this

If you get attacked and you win that you get a basic amount of honor for example 4 honor/fight for a win against your own mp level.And that amount lowers -2 for every mp level lower but the minimal honor reward must be 0 for winning an attacked fight it may not be used when you attack someone.

That mp3's can attack mp3's,mp4's,mp5's and mp6's that should make it more interessant for the mp3's.

That mp4's can attack mp4's,mp5's and mp6's so they can attack more players because there are not much mp4's.

That mp5's can attack mp5's and mp6's so that the mp6's get more attacked.

[dst]

And you think a mp3 could take out a mp5? For me losing all the time to higher mps will be just frustrating. But hey! that's just me

[Calyx of Isis]

And you think a mp3 could take out a mp5? For me losing all the time to higher mps will be just frustrating. But hey! that's just me

LOL I have to agree one this. I can barely handle MP4's and would not care to take on an MP5 with a greater variety and levels of creatures. Age is essential in this game. MP5 have been playing for many months and have creatures that take two or even three months to reach certain levels. No MP3 will ever get close to those because of the XP limit, and I don't think they should.

I hit Max XP at 64 wins and my other character at 34 wins and I whined in the forums as do so many. Then one wise, more experienced player asked me if I really was being punished for playing too well. I suddenly realized I was being punished for not having learned patience nor how to work the system. The issue is not how fast you can build up xp, but how much you, the player, are learning.

The system attempts to enforce balance and it refuses to let you play as if it were a "hack and slash" game. The game is based on very deep philosophical ideas and Mur has tried to make us live by them. Not all of his ideas and formulas have been effective yet. However, please remember the game has not even reached beta test. It's still in Alpha because not only has it not been completed, but Mur has yet to see the whole thing in his mind. Mur hasn't said this to me, but watch the evolution for a month and study the structure of the game and you will see it.

Like it or not the game is trying to teach all of us a different way of doing things. It calls for patience, balance, and cooperation! Of that last, there is far too little happening here. This is why I created the dojo and why Mur has supported me in the effort.

I was ready to leave the game when I hit the XP wall. People encouraged me to stay and to learn the system better. I am very glad I did. It was VERY frustrating walking around collecting 66 wins and getting nothing from them (game-wise). I learned a lot as a person.

[Glaistig]

I like the idea of being able to attack players in higher mindpowers. Hey, why not? It gives the weaker players a chance to see what kind of strategies the more advanced players use, and besides--believe it or not, mp5s can be defeated by players in mp4, and mp4s by mp3s with the right strategies sometimes. Especially if those players have tree def rits That might help with the lack of targets in the lower mindpowers.

Glad to see that your'e still here, Calyx

And it would be more realistic. Give a challenge. n__n Not to mention allow those in lower mindpowers to be able to attack rpcs in higher mp levels back when those rpcs attack them for personal gain. Heh.

Oh, and about the honor reward when winning in a defending right: I don't see why not for this either.

[Sacosphilz]

I'm not sure I like the idea of lower MP players being able to attack higher MP players. In my opinion, these issues might have to be addressed first:

- MP4 and MP5 usually have horrid fight balances with lots more losses than wins, giving any near-balanced MP3 who attack them lots of negative honor. It might not be enough to turn away all attacks, but it would seem a bit strange. Shouldn't you gain honor when winning again a 'stronger' player?

- Tree def rits and other 'free' rituals would benefit MP3 a lot and making training creatures so easy. But would it be too easy? MP3 don't naturally have this kind of ritual and they just have to train the hard way. If they sudden have free win rituals to farm with from the start, it would be a major change in game experience, and I'm not sure if it's a good thing.

[Glaistig]

Mm, those are things I didn't think about.  I'm all for some fixing with the honor system, but that might not happen for a while.  In the meantime, allowing players in mp3 to attack less balanced players in the other mindpowers would be a bit pointless, unless the player is just curious to see what ritual a more advanced player has and trusts that he will lose, therefore not receiving any penalty in honor.  (If someone needs a more detailed explanation on why the honor system is currently screwed up in a way that prevents this idea of allowing lower mps to attack higher mps from being feasible, just ask.  I'd love to rant about it even if you can already find explanations elsewhere in the forums if you search.)

As for the easier wins for mp3s what with the weak defenses advanced players sometimes put up, you have a point there too.  I'm not sure that a lot of players put up those rituals, but if one player has a ton of those rituals set up and goes idle, a mp3 could easily reach max exp within a short duration of time.  It would take some luck to find that ritual amongst all the other mp5s (or mp4s) that set up strong (or random but still powerful enough to kill newbies easily) rituals, but once found..  It's a dilemma I don't like, because I think there are some good advantages to allowing lower mps to attack the higher ones.

[Calyx of Isis]

Glad to see that your'e still here, Calyx

Thank you, Glai. I try to keep up. This is the only game in which I've wanted to stay current in the forum and remain this active. I take it you like my philosophical view point.

You know, while I am still leery of of completely open attacks in both directions, there is something in your post that make me think maybe there is a point to upward attacks. For MP4's who can never find other MP4's, being able to attack MP5's might be a good thing.

Making it possible to attack lower things is not something I would agree with. But upwards... maybe you guys have got a point there.

[Tiberius Reign]

I say no.

Why?

Oh that's pretty simple. You see, unlike most people, I've been known to sit at the computer for ten minutes doing nothing but refreshing the page to read the litte tip snippets Mur has so kindly provided us with in game. One of which is. "Each mind power level is like a filter, bringing together people of like ideas." Or something to that effect. This game is designed to reward players who learn how to play it a certain way. Thus it is not right to spoil the game for lower mindpowers by allowing them to attack higher ones.

Furthermore, there is a reason negative honor exists, and your whole valuation for the fights destroys the complexity and point behind the current honor system. It is not about simplicity, or playing hack and slash. This is a game about something deep, far deeper than merely attacking for honor or exp.

If all you're doing is looking for wins and EXP, you're in the wrong game. If you really want to have a learning experience, sit and talk with Khal for ten minutes, that's a trip you'r enot liable to walk away from the same.

This is about discovering yourself, even as you discover the game. I encourage you to start over, and slow down. As my mentor is wont to say, "Seek above all else, a game worth playing." I think I've found one here and intend to hang on for the ride,

as long as it ends in Golemus Golemicarum for me.

(Edit for spelling)

[Calyx of Isis]

If all you're doing is looking for wins and EXP, you're in the wrong game. If you really want to have a learning experience, sit and talk with Khal for ten minutes, that's a trip you'r enot liable to walk away from the same.

This is about discovering yourself, even as you discover the game. I encourage you to start over, and slow down. As my mentor is wont to say, "Seek above all else, a game worth playing." I think I've found one here and intend to hang on for the ride,

as long as it ends in Golemus Golemicarum for me.

It's going to end where it ends.

That this game is about deep, deep philosophical ideas, self growth, and spiritual exploration has been apparent to me since the moment I found the game. I could feel, know it even before I created my account. The game has not disappointed me and I doubt it ever will. As the universe wills, I found this game the day after spending a whole evening trying to envision a game that would not be based on hack-and-slash, but on some meaningful spiritual principles.

I've seen the tip you mention. You make a good point, however consider this: combat between all mind power levels is possible so long as both players are members of an alliance. It is only prohibited for non-aligned players. I don't understand Manu's thinking in this, but it makes me wonder how rigidly separation of the levels ought to be.

[dst]

With battles between mp levels in alliances is a different thing. Mp4s and mp3 that accept to join an alliance accept also the risk. I think they all are aware of the fact that they can become bait for mp5s. For me it's not fun to attack mp4s. And I try not to. I attack them mostly when I need to test some bug theories like I did few days or 1 week ago. They don't even give me honor so...why should I attack them? Just to kill their creatures? There's no fun in that.

[Glaistig]

Oh that's pretty simple. You see, unlike most people, I've been known to sit at the computer for ten minutes doing nothing but refreshing the page to read the litte tip snippets Mur has so kindly provided us with in game. One of which is. "Each mind power level is like a filter, bringing together people of like ideas." Or something to that effect. This game is designed to reward players who learn how to play it a certain way. Thus it is not right to spoil the game for lower mindpowers by allowing them to attack higher ones.

I disagree. If not for the two points Pi stated, I would be in favor of allowing lower mindpowers to attack higher mindpowers. For one thing, each mindpower does create separate communities. That doesn't mean there should be a lack of interaction between more advanced players and new players. I believe that players would continue first and foremost to target players within their mindpower, because that's the sensible thing to do. However, it won't harm to allow player to challenge themselves with targets in a higher mindpower. In real life, you set yourself to learn from those who are better than you, who you may want to surpass. Learning from others is a valuable thing. I think those who would benefit from daring to try higher mindpowers in order to learn deserve the benefit. It's like normal players talking to Khalazdad, in your thought. I don't think reward should be constrained to learning a certain, specified way. I think the main point of mindpowers was to prevent advanced players from getting easy wins from the newbies.

Furthermore, there is a reason negative honor exists, and your whole valuation for the fights destroys the complexity and point behind the current honor system. It is not about simplicity, or playing hack and slash. This is a game about something deep, far deeper than merely attacking for honor or exp

I know the point of negative honor. The thing is, it isn't working like Manu imagined it would. The purpose it was supposed to serve was to prevent more advanced players from targeting weak players who have a lot of losses, and to encourage players to target those who had gotten many wins. Players instead farmed losses to get more honor from people who were getting losses naturally. Almost no one is balanced except new players, and thus it is the new players who are targeted. Those who have newly advanced in mindpower give tons of honor to veterans in that mindpower. There isn't enough incentive for players to keep balance instead of farm losses for honor. Cripes, the way things are, if you try to be balanced, you're crippled. You'll get negative honor from all the other people who have a ton more losses than you and eventually hit the -500 honor mark, where you can't gain combat reward. At that point, you're told that you're supposed to balance yourself, because the way the system was supposed to work, you would only get to that point if you kept on getting easy wins. The irony! The honor system would work if players kept balanced, but unfortunately the game offers little to encourage players to do that.

I'm afraid I'm lost when you say my evaluation destroys the point behind the current system. I once blamed players for farming losses and making the honor system work badly, but that was wrong of me. Honor, exp and skill gain are the rewards for combat. If you don't make the reward correspond to your concepts behind the system, then the system won't work intuitively like it should. In this case, there isn't enough reward for balance. Players shouldn't need to evaluate the system deeply. It should be simple. The system should make it so that players are rewarded for doing the right thing: keeping balance. Instead, the way it is now, the system encourages players to farm losses instead. Are you complimenting the current system for making players think about the concepts in order to make the system work, instead of the rewards that are supposed to reflect them? Players aren't going to do that; they didn't. They shouldn't have to, and that's why the system is screwed up right now. That's plain and simple, a crappy system. What are game rewards for then? You might as well eliminate game rewards like honor, and instead tell players to obey the concept of honor.

If all you're doing is looking for wins and EXP, you're in the wrong game. If you really want to have a learning experience, sit and talk with Khal for ten minutes, that's a trip you'r enot liable to walk away from the same.

Khalz. Please, let me never have to endure talking to that annoying bastard for ten minutes. Stupid Khalz. Stupid shades. Oh, may lightning come down from the heavens and strike him down, so that the shades be freed from their laspe of logic and rational judgment and come back into the charm they once held for me.

Anyway: But darn it, I don't want to play a game in which innocently looking for honor will make the system screw up. I love this player community. The people aren't stupid. If there is a problem in the game, it isn't the players' fault. I like the roleplaying features; I like talking to other players who have an intricate understanding of the MD world and are rewarded for it by being given a role ingame (not Khalazdad, but yeah). However, I think that important, central mechanics of the game like the combat system (reward being part of it, and honor being part of the reward system) should be perfected before we get all those lovely features. Otherwise, you have a multiplayer roleplaying game and that's it. I don't think MD is supposed to appeal only to roleplayers. I'd quit. Heck, I've heard Manu say that the game is supposed to allow an outlet for the creative minds of roleplayers, it's supposed to reward players who can involve themselves in the game more--but also allow statwhores to statwhore if they'd like (I'm paraphrasing, by the way). The game doesn't allow statwhores to do that happily yet.

I love MagicDuel for its deep concepts. I would love it more if the game made the concepts work. The reason why I'm still playing is that I faithfully believe that it will occur one day, and that the terrible trials we're going through (I'm going through, not being able to statwhore happily >) currently are for that effect.

Wow, I've derailed. It's your fault for talking about the honor and combat system It's a trigger for me.

EDIT: ahh.. excuse me, were you referring to the topic creator's evaluation of honor? n_n; My apologies for ranting about an unrelated topic if so.