Reality 01

[Morrel]

The general opinion seems to be that reality is the collection of what we experience and see in the world 'outside'

I state that reality is an illusion, I know that is difficult to understand, I would like to start with small steps to show you what I mean. So please just answer the questions.

Note: When I say reality is an illusion, I don't mean it's a 'dream' or doesn't exist, just that what we think is reality is in fact not.

Here is something I'd like you to try before answering. below are some optical illusions you can find on the Internet.

But I'd like you to use them for something different then amusement.

This animated gif is a girl dancing clockwise or counterclockwise. If clockwise, then you use more of the right side of the brain and vice versa.

Try to make her dance in the direction you want in an instant, without thinking.

Try and not have her rotate at all, so she just moves her leg.

What part of your brain is telling you the truth?

Is there even a picture of a girl spinning there?

OK, it's a cheap illusion you might think, but even while you are reading this your mind is making things up. Are you sure you are seeing these letters?

Try to read the following sentence real fast.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Next

The 2 squares A and b are the same shade of gray.

Exercise : Look at the picture until you actually can see that. It's not easy. you have to get rid of the illusion.

Finally: stop the picture from rotating

Questions :

Are the illusions inside you or outside on the monitor, or is it something else?

If it is something else, then what?

If it is outside, how come you can change it just by concentrating?

If it is inside, How can you say reality is what you see?

Can you find a real life example like the word jumble ?

[GgSeverin]

Awesome!

And a great choice of arguments. Ilusions are to the mind like the border between USA and Mexic.

Maximum rules anything can happend.

:-)

[GgSeverin]

In math is Russel paradox.

In phisics we got Heisenberg principle.

But let's forget those, I take a common and 2000 yrs old statement; A religious question:

"If God can do anything then can he create a stone too heavy for Him?"

And maybe the apple of our discontent: Can I know realty when knowing involve me so much?

You say:" I state that reality is an illusion" And define like a master what an ilusion is.

I agree

and

repeat my self trying to find the cause why your statement is true:

You can't know something you are a part of.

I taste the wine and it's taste is unique. The flavour brings me so much more than anyone can chunk into words.

The graveyard is myne and the sun is the one above my land.

All I can do 4 ya is to send you a bottle of wine.

PM me your adress!

the text below is a weak translation int your language:

I explain because my phrase is more poetic (eclectic?) than scientific.

Getting knowledge involves a two way process.

One is gathering data the other is interpretation (using your experience more or less conscious)

This is why "reality is an illusion" as you very well said. Because the word realty implies the mind effort to know . reality implies the one (that Human!) who's pronouncing this word.

The dancer is "awesome" may I use it when I teach?

[wynken vanaril]

But let's forget those, I take a common and 2000 yrs old statement; A religious question:

"If God can do anything then can he create a stone too heavy for Him?"

That question is actually flawed semantically and thus inherently contradictory.

There are two ways to show this. First because nothing claims that God can "do anything". The definition of omnipotent is "possessing all power", and the possession of all power doesn't grant the ability to manifest logical or linguistic contradictions. Basically, God can create water from wine, but not a substance that's both at once. He also can't create a square triangle...it's a linguistic impossibility because even if it were to be created you would look at it and see either a square or a triangle...we simply can't define an object that is both. In the same manner, God can not be both all powerful and not all powerful or both God and not God simultaneously.

The second is much the same but has to do with the way you define the terms. If you evaluate what the question is asking you will find that God is only God because He is all powerful. The moment the rock becomes more powerful than God...it becomes God. So, you're really asking if God can create himself to be more powerful than himself...which just doesn't make sense and is explained as a trick of semantics.

To weigh in to this thread, regardless of my interpretation or perception of it, the fact remains that data exists. Furthermore, the creator of those illusionary images knows exactly what they look like because he's engineered them in such a way so as to consistently create a desired result based on his understanding of the objective chemical processes taking place in the brain. Similarly, we know that the words on our monitors exist because we understand that 5 volts dropped over a given series of transistors will produce an ASCII code which is deciphered by this message board and that through more objective electrical processes, those codes are then displayed on a monitor which through yet more objective biochemical and electric processes are then read and translated within the brain.

Once you understand that there really is no magic happening behind this monitor or the illusions, you can see that many of your arguments are actually self defeating. You're attempting to use objective and consistent situations to prove the inconsistency of reality...

Hallucinogens are also bound by the objectivity of reality. Although they alter the chemical reactions in the mind, they do it objectively...for example, have you ever experienced hallucinations as a result of eating marshmallows (that weren't soaked in LSD) or M&Ms? No...because they lack the chemical makeup to produce them.

[GgSeverin]

Helloo Wynken!

A cave man enters in the stone hole they were living an finds a mamouth draw on the wall.

Unused to that, he fall in his knees cover his head with the hands and start shaking of fear.

The elder put a hand on his shoulder and say with low voice:

-C'moon maan lets be real!

It's real that "Reality" is a made by man word. Let's be real, shall we?

The 5 senses are mandatory on survival but cheating us when we get close to our knowledge borders.

Morrel proved.

Believing that God is mighty -I can, but I fail if I try to measure Him with this antedeluvian human instrument call logic.

I'm not striving to say that I walk on water,

I admit that I took a huuge slice of raw real meat today at lunch. (the wine has nothing to do with this world, are alowed to speak of my wine and about the cheese from my sheeps only chosen people!!)

All I wanna say is that U use your brain triyng to be objective (your brain reacts to the lunch (:-)) is like cutting your right hand fingernails using only the right arm.

I congratulate You because U find the objective reality beyond Morrel's examples. But if a visual can fool somebody. Is just a matter of time till Your turn come.

The best argument that reality can't be objective is that we do what we do here now: We contradict (eh, more or less) each other

Where do you live? I still have a half of a wine bottle!

[wynken vanaril]

The best argument that reality can't be objective is that we do what we do here now: We contradict (eh, more or less) each other

See, but the beauty of objectivism and objective reality is that it matters not what our opinions are. Existence exists and what is is regardless of how one person's opinions contradict my own.

Where do you live? I still have a half of a wine bottle!

I live in the U.S.

[Morrel]

wynken vanaril: Once you understand that there really is no magic happening behind this monitor or the illusions, you can see that many of your arguments are actually self defeating. You're attempting to use objective and consistent situations to prove the inconsistency of reality...

I didn't speak of magic or make many arguments, just one, I'll repeat:

I state that reality is an illusion, I don't mean it's a 'dream' or doesn't exist, just that what we think is reality is in fact not.

Also, this is only one step in the point I'm trying to make. It's only purpose is to proof that what we see is not reality.

Think of my statement as a statue, we start with a block of raw stone, and this post is my way of chiseling of a piece of stone. Don't throw it away yet because you cant see the statue yet.

When it begins to take form, you can tel me if its garbage or beautiful. In this post I'm chiseling at the eyes..

I agree on the chemical processes, What i mean is that our brain is very creative and makes things up, even without LSD, and that we can't trust that what we see is reality.

Those illusions are just a fun way of proofing that. And it's nice to see you can stop the illusion, just by using your concentration. So they're not really consistent I think.

Oh, and the letters...

If you start notepad, with black and white background then the letters are black and do not send you 'real' information (light waves). what you see is the negative form. the white of the screen determines their shape. (a lesson learned in art school)

Edit : I just stumbled on this in wikipedia ! Seems someone had the idea of optical illusions before

The first way that Descartes tries to undermine his beliefs is by considering the fact that he remembers that his senses have deceived him before. If he has been misled by sensory information in the past (e.g. he judged that the stick in the water was bent, when in fact it was straight), then he may be deceived now, "and it is prudent never to trust completely those who have deceived us even once."

OK, now I'm getting goosebumps...

[wynken vanaril]

Thank you for your reactions !

wynken vanaril:

I said

I don't mean it's a 'dream' or doesn't exist, just that what we think is reality is in fact not.

Or more accurately, "what we think is reality may not be".

We really can't test anything absolutely. It's a concept that my character delves into a bit. The only absolute is that I or my consciousness exists, and everything else is an assumption.

[Chewett]

[Redacted]

Edited December 18, 2012 by Chewett
Redacted

[GgSeverin]

wynken vanaril, If you live in US your custom regulations keeps you away of my wine. (Bottle finished but tomorrow i'll make another 100 litres)

Worse 4 U: My cheese is chemical atack there.

You say "Existence exists and what is is regardless of how one person's opinions contradict my own."

I'm gonna tell you once again :

My wine is real but an't any more!

LOL

Thank you guys, it was fun. I do not think that we have a reason to debate. there is no one on this post I can contradict. Tomorrow I'll get out of the story (god damnit I hope so!) and you won't see me on the forum till my grasan get a bachelor degree.

Good article Chewett, They say my right part of the brain is a mess because of the cofee.

I admit that i drink to much (COFEE!) but I was teaching geometry sometime!

The turning girl is good to prove that the 5 senses are not enough so we have to get Mind Power.

Just got to MP4 and after 24hrs and Manu took me more than one point from luck and tradesense.

If I send him a bottle of wine would him give me back the points?

Thank you all !

[Muratus del Mur]

i love this. The first post in "School of Thought" posted by someone else and its a damn good one. Thanks Morrel, and all participating in this.

[Morrel]

Chewett, thank you for making that clear.
The left brain right brain myth shows again how we can be fooled in another way.
How many things that we believe to be true are in fact false? I'd think we'd be amazed if we knew.

Another thing is that there is lots of 'reality' that we simply don't see...

[u]The blind spot of the eyes[/u]

It's the point where the optic nerve connects to the eye. that part doesn't give any signals to the brain and we actually don't see anything there, not even darkness.
Our brain fills in the missing pieces...

Look with your right eye at the cross (close the left eye) place yourself so that the cross is right in front of your eye.
Now move closer or further from the monitor (for me it's about 25 cm)
At a certain point the black spot on the left will disappear
Test it by moving closer and further away from the cross. The spot will appear and disappear as it moves in and out your blind spot (be sure to focus on the cross)
[attachment=458:blindspot.gif]

To test the left eye look at the circle, close the right one and place your eye in front of the circle, move up and down until the cross disappears.

This is [i]not [/i]a illusion from the screen, it's made right in our brain. No matter how hard we try, we don't see that blind spot without a test like this.

I think we may agree that our visual system, and/or our interpretation can't always be trusted to tell what is true or not.

Insects that see UV light show us that there is information out there we don't even notice. in fact visible light is only small part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Once I saw a documentary about this stuff. at the end was a final test. some persons were asked to dribble a basket ball, they had to count how many times the ball touched the ground while going in a circle.
A man dressed as a gorilla walked trough the men to the other side, only one or two had seen the gorilla walking around.
In fact I didn't believe It. But then... The host told me I had missed the gorilla 4 times during the show, and it was true. Once he drove by on a bike, another time he was playing football in the background, he even passed on the sidewalk right behind the host.
How could I miss something like that, it was a very serious scientific documentary? I didn't expect a man in a gorilla suit at all, so I didn't see one.
This experiment had a big impact on how I think about what I see. (or don't see)

Thank you all for contributing to this topic. I think this concludes what I wanted to say about the [u]visual [/u]part of this so called reality
Please don't tell me that you don't believe me, until you've seen it with your own eyes...

[wynken vanaril]

Again, whether you saw it or not, the gorilla was still there

Two offtopic points that I find interesting:

1. Our eyes share about 97% of the genetic structure of any creature with eyes. Although there are 5 independent phyla of life who have eyes, they are all the same genetically.

2. Octopuses, squids, and other mollusks have eyes in which the nerve does not pass in front of the retina resulting in an eye identical to that of humans without the blind spot.

[This Jaded Flesh]

Rupert Sheldrake....