End of festival - Thin line between PWR and RPC

[Logan Marquis]

Dst, is that not your role? :-) Perhaps what you define as role is a bit too refined.

Truly, what makes us all unique is us, and the role we play. As such, isn't it simply HOW we play that makes us unique, too?

Perhaps the fact you beat up on noobs and mess up heads contest is your role, your thing, your persona on MD. That's truly all I see the roles being. Something that enables people to interact in a way that focuses the interaction.

Think of it this way, perhaps...

You are, in essence, something akin to "The Balancer of the Lands". That can go many different directions, really, but you as dst bring balance to the game as very few can. Even if it is a chaotic balance. *smirk*

Maybe this helps you some? Also, feel free to come to Renavoid's Unofficial Official Office(Marind's Room). I think we could enjoy a chat with one another.



EDIT: In addendum to this, I think many people have a seriously misconceived notion of what a role can or can't be. Heck, if Mur didn't agree with this, I wouldn't have been promoted. There is room for learning from one another, and I do believe I have a different insight than most(and Tarquinus is akin to me in this.). This world has a long way to go, but I have to say I am in love with it and the atmosphere. Without growth and learning it would be rather dull, though.

[dst]

"the fact you beat up on noobs " - this hurts! I don't beat up noobs. I beat up everyone.
And sorry but I will not come to Ren's office. Me and he do not like each other. So I prefer not to cross paths.
And why should I come? To talk about my role? I don't play a role. This is who I am. Everyone is free to like it or not.

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='dst' post='17014' date='Sep 19 2008, 03:26 PM']I don't play a role. This is who I am. Everyone is free to like it or not.[/quote]
From my perspective, not playing a role is still a role. "Hi, I'm dst. I do whatever I feel like; deal with it" is perfectly valid to me. I will react to that in-character unless and until someone tells me I'm being annoying, in which case I think the rules of courtesy take precedence, and then I will drop the RP schtick immediately. If Lucius Tarquinus says you are insane and deluded into thinking you inhabit a world you no longer occupy, that's not the same as saying I (Sebastian, the player) don't think you're worth my time. Personally, I find your interaction with the MD world very entertaining and sometimes instructive.

The point of contention here, if there is one, seems to be a sense of unhappiness some players have about missing in-game rewards for doing things that don't interest them. Well, as Faraday points out, such complaints are valid, though I would add the caveat that I think most of us knew what we were getting into when we started playing the game. Mur has given every indication he will reward all sorts of different kinds of engagement with the game. Is it not so? I am mildly discouraged that so many RPC quests involve things from cryptography to very strange and specific requirements, but it hardly ruins the game for me. It simply means that if I want to get a certain reward from a certain RPC, I have to play by his/her rules. I think we all contribute something. Sometimes I am slow to see what certain players contribute, but the simple fact of a player's persistence in the game says much about that player's contributions.

[dst]

It's not about the rewards it's about the chance to get them. I mean I find it harder to do the role thing than solving even Nelya's damn quest (which btw I abandoned a long time ago because I lost to many brain cells in the process of trying to solve it).
And maybe you are right: the way most of you hate head contest, me and other players dislike role playing. Anyway...we discuss discussions . We'll see in time how things will evolve. Good thing that all players need to fight but only few are required to act .



ps: I think I complain too much these days...I should stop....

[maggot]

Nice to get responses once in a while, not like I'm being ignored completely by this player community. But offense? For what? Saying that I prefer combat to roleplaying? I'm not threatening the game, not demanding anything, not even suggesting that things be changed--a game can be a roleplaying game and please roleplayers, or a game with more emphasis on strategic combat and please PvPers. Either way a fine game. I said: it is simple, a game cannot expect to please all when it doesn't try to appeal to all. So don't take offense. That is offensive. Every game has a specific playerbase, if not as particular as this one's. Fine for games to discard players "less desirable" like Tarquinus suggests, but not so for a community to be so annoyingly prideful and unopen to opinions in a [i]forum[/i].

This is a roleplaying game, yes, but I didn't understand it was such a [i]hardcore[/i] roleplaying game until I read the game creator's post emphasizing the word. That is why I said I understand more now. Most rpgs aren't like roleplaying forums the way this "game" is, they try for game aspects more than creativity outlet. When I joined the game, there were no such things as "rpcs." Joined before you, Tarquinus, yes, and quit for a long period.. and I tell you: really liked it, the innovative ideas and gameplay, but became disillusioned when I saw combat system wasn't going anywhere quickly. I log in after a few months to check where game has gone, and see all this roleplaying development. Figure I will tell others what I think because all the other people who are like me don't bother and just quit permanently, and here I am wasting time writing posts in a forum for a game I do not actually play. Maybe most players today joined the game knowing what it would be like, because all the older players already quit. I, others, had no idea. Game creator doesn't publish intentions.

Compare rewards of head contest and rewards of actively roleplaying. Logan: many dislike roleplaying not because of work involved, but instead because it's not in the player style to write stories to get spells and powers over other players, not even stories like the one you have. Players like that contribute as much as roleplayers who ask for roles, but it is only those who write up wishes in stories to be able to read people's conversations from long ago and publicize that wish who obtain that wish. Roles [i]are[/i] limited. dst will not get a rpc role because he will not ask to be, act and name himself Balancer of Lands, because doing such things is not like him, and the role is not him then. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't. Don't truly care much anymore. Didn't mean to offend, only to inform that there are some people who don't like the roleplaying much and to encourage updates of those puzzles game developer mentioned. Now I go back to waiting and watching, spent too much time replying to this sort of community when I may never rejoin it, when the game may one day lose its appeal for me completely. Do not expect more effort from me to give feedback.

Understand the great work in the game, though may not appreciate some aspects as much as others. It is why I stay and wait to see development, though grow more and more discouraged as I observe this development and hear from this outright arrogant, egotistic playerbase-community which calls the game developer "God." But still hope and wait, will for a while.

[Faraday]

Well......lol ......touche'

[Logan Marquis]

maggot: no offense, but what you refer to is Diablo...and I am sure everyone here KNOWS or at least has HEARD of Diablo.

There becomes a point when pure PvP and hack and slash get well, mundane, and even more so, old. Repetition does not create newness, it creates oldness.

Perhaps many originally were lured to MD because of it's newness in the beginning. A unique combat system with many intricacies to learn and exploit, but eventually that HAD to change. Well, it SHOULD have changed, and it did, to some degree.

Mur has said time and again that this game to him is more than the game, it's the community. And as such, the community interacts how it will interact. Mur reminded everyone not long ago about how vital the community had become when he said simply, "imagine before there was chat..."

maggot, I do not, and did not, mean to offend you. In fact, that was the complete opposite of what I was trying to point out. My concern is that there are many like you...who sit idly by and claim they don't like to roleplay, and well, that's fine. But there are plenty of games out there like that. And truthfully, you do NOT have to roleplay on MD. You can hack and slash all you want. You can PvP all you want.

If that is your desire than what REAL awards can Mur offer? He gives heads contest. He can't give more, though he will. Should those who prefer hack and slash be given abilities that help that? Because that would actually make the game TRULY unbalanced.

Imagine, if you will, if dst -- and I only use dst because he's the best example of one who focuses on the PvP aspect of the game over the RP aspects(which is TOTALLY cool) -- was given some sort of special bonus ability like "Leadership Charge"(note this is a totally made up ability) where his creatures all gain 1000 VE plus an attack and power boost of 500 points each. Who could compete with him? Seriously...

I know where you are coming from, as I have been in the opposite position where a truly unique PvP game had been set up and there was little to no RP. I became addicted the PvP but I really wanted something to show for my RP side. Unfortunately, the creators and managers of that game didn't heed my requests and so ultimately I left.

But I hope you understand, and it does appear you really do, that Mur's focus is on pushing the roleplaying elements further to enhance the openness of RP. Essentially, he wants RP, and who are we to argue?

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='maggot' post='16959' date='Sep 18 2008, 05:55 PM']Not protesting current rewards for rpcs, not protesting right of roleplayers to fantasize and have preferences, protesting lack of reward/incentive for other playerbases.[/quote]
[quote name='maggot' post='17037' date='Sep 20 2008, 02:00 AM']I'm not threatening the game, not demanding anything, not even suggesting that things be changed[/quote]
Protesting implies a desire for things to be other than what they are.

[quote]a game can be a roleplaying game and please roleplayers, or a game with more emphasis on strategic combat and please PvPers. Either way a fine game.[/quote]
[quote name='King Manu' post='16650' date='Sep 14 2008, 05:31 AM']About the other players that do not enjoy role playing so much, well its a roleplaying game ... don't worry, the combat system will 'suffer' improvements and new creatures will be put into play. I wish i could work to improve both role-playing and fighting , but i cant do both at the same time...this period was for the role part...the same as the period when i made the head contest was for the fighting part. A lot of people dont like the head contest, a lot love it. ... it will allways be like that.[/quote]
This sounds pretty self-explanatory.

[quote name=''maggot' date='Sep 20 2008' date=' 02:00 AM' post='17037'']I said: it is simple, a game cannot expect to please all when it doesn't try to appeal to all. So don't take offense. That is offensive. Every game has a specific playerbase, if not as particular as this one's. Fine for games to discard players "less desirable" like Tarquinus suggests, but not so for a community to be so annoyingly prideful and unopen to opinions in a [i]forum[/i].[/quote]
From the tone of your response, you seem to be the one who has taken offense. I did not mean to give offense, and regret it if I did. Speaking solely for myself, I find it tiresome saying the same thing over and over, and sometimes come across rather sharply. If you are entitled to your opinion, so am I. My opinion is and has been that offers of help are much more useful than negative feedback.

In my line of RL work, I see a lot of effort get discarded, and I hear a lot of criticism from people who are unwilling to offer or are incapable of offering constructive suggestions. When it comes to work, I have learned to accept that fact because I get paid either way, and I have developed the attitude that there is no such thing as wasted effort. When I hear someone criticizing something I do for [b]fun[/b] - even when it is from players such as Faraday and yourself who have been paying attention to the game longer than I have - I want to know what the critic is prepared to do about it, how the critic is prepared to contribute to the volunteer effort of helping an unusual game thrive and improve. I give the criticism weight in proportion to the effort I see expended to redress the perceived problem. Surely that is not difficult to understand.

I don't know why you think I worship this game or the developer. It's in alpha, and I have seen occasional, very dramatic tests and changes even in my comparatively short time playing.

[quote]I log in after a few months to check where game has gone, and see all this roleplaying development. Figure I will tell others what I think because all the other people who are like me don't bother and just quit permanently, and here I am wasting time writing posts in a forum for a game I do not actually play... Do not expect more effort from me to give feedback.[/quote]
I'm sorry you feel you have wasted your time. Again, speaking for myself, I did not entirely miss the point - but I do not feel compelled to agree.

[quote]It is why I stay and wait to see development, though grow more and more discouraged as I observe this development and hear from this outright arrogant, egotistic playerbase-community which calls the game developer "God."[/quote]
This is simply invective. You seem to feel stung. I offer my personal apologies. Though I doubt you will ever read this response, I encourage you to think about why some of your remarks can be taken the same way you seem to have taken the responses you received.

[maggot]

No, I understand. Was offended, yes, because of the offense displayed at simple feedback to the announcement: don't care about roleplaying, but look forward to puzzles. You are entitled to your opinion as I am, but your own tone was the one that provoked mine to be defensive and stung from then on. Reread your own posts and ask yourself if you would not be annoyed. Let it sink in. Seriously.

In return for your apologies, though, sorry. Didn't mean to come across as giving "negative criticism" but to simply give an opinion. Also keep in mind that until the game developer replied, still hadn't grasped that the focus was on roleplaying. Did protest for myself personally because I don't care about roleplaying features, but I am not expecting a game for hardcore roleplayers to change because some players do not appreciate the roleplaying aspect, nor am I saying it is a bad game because of that. Only responded to people who seemed so disbelieving that someone could have my opinion. It is because of that apparent disbelief in your tone that I felt that you and others compulsively support the game, and do not welcome hearing what others think unless it is correspondingly in support of the game developer and his creation. Also read other topics in this forum and felt the same impression, that some players form a cult that worships the game developer..because of similar replies to people who criticized it.

A general message to all in this community based on that impression: do not discard negative criticism so flippantly. Even if it does not supply a solution, it is asking for one and implies that the game could be improved. Consider carefully what a person has to say instead of making that person feel disliked and unwelcome for what he has to contribute, for because of the fact that he is complaining means that he cares about the game. Even when it is something in the game that cannot be changed, understand the viewpoint instead of dismissing it angrily as useless complaint. You cannot pitch the game as ideal when you do not understand that not one game can be perfect to all when it doesn't strive to be so, and that there are real cons to the one you are promoting. You are representative of the community of the game. You make an impact on the impression of those who have yet to make a decision on whether or not they will continue playing this game they have just joined. For a game which values the community so much, try to be a receptive community.

Logan: Disagree. Really enjoyed the game once because it gave all the appearances of being a MMORPG I could play that wasn't hack-and-slash. This game's combat system is supposed to be one of strategy, not anything like repetitive grind in other MMORPGs I had played. Felt that the game's focus was on strategy, not only in combat, but in puzzles and an interactive story as well. It was the primary reason I played it instead of Diablo, it is the reason I vest so much hope in it even now when I realize the direction the game developer wants it to go. If you quote the game developer so much, so can I: he promised that anybody in the game would be able to become the best regardless of age as long as that person used good strategy. Really seemed like that. But I cannot "hack-and-slash," I cannot PvP all I want.

One because the combat system does not make its concepts work yet, since development has gone into roleplaying and other features instead of fixing the numerous flaws. Truly those who do not roleplay have little to do but try PvP with a bad combat system and chat with others when roleplayers are not around to frown on the conversations with references to real life in the midst of their asterisk-denoted roleplaying. Still waiting for that to change eventually; understand when the game developer says he cannot work on all things at once, and if roleplaying development was important enough to be put above things that I care about, can't really complain. Another because those who roleplay are given powers that affect PvP. Don't completely understand why some rpcs are given combat boosts unrelated to their role, but it discourages those who cannot even think of roleplaying. However, I will not argue for this to change, not now that I understand what kind of game this is.

As for rewarding PvPers as much as roleplayers, don't suggest that they are given combat boosts the way rpcs are, but there are others things that can enhance gameplay like inner magic, spells, access to locked areas, etc. that rpcs have easy access to and others do not. Only thing winning head contests give are a few credits and minor stat-boost.

Do not think from my words that you have encouraged me to quit watching this game's development, or what is said in the forums. Will not bother trying to contribute feedback anymore as now I realize I am not in the targeted playerbase of roleplayers--this reply is in response to what is directly addressed to me--but still have a hope that the game will one day become one enjoyable to play even with features I don't care for. Otherwise will have to make a long search for another game which promises to make me think as this game did.

Don't have much more to say. Doubt I will post again unless someone prompts me to respond to something they say to me.

[Logan Marquis]

Sounds like, actually, i just worded myself poorly(been kinda overly stressed lately). I won't attempt to re-word, but I think you and I to some degree are actually on the same page now in terms of our understanding of your point of view.

I'm not saying, nor have I meant to say, that you had no reason to desire change, just that not all would receive that ideal for change with open arms.

You have a valid point, and one that I am sure at some point can be addressed more openly and heavily, but for now, as you have said yourself, the focus is on amping up the roleplaying aspects more than combat(though combat changes ARE on the horizon).

I do want to say one thing in closing:

Mur's statement that anyone regardless of age can beat older more experienced players in combat using strategy is true, ENTIRELY true. He never said that there wouldn't be roleplaying involved to get that strategy, or that it might not require some serious puzzle solving. But it is possible.

With that said...I want you to know that I see much more clearly where you are coming from and can understand the frustration(like I said previously, I played a MMO that was more about the PvP than RP and it turned me off after a while because to me it wasn't what I was looking for in a MMO).

I hope that to some degree you will find that the combat changes to come might help address some of your requests for change. I believe you do have some good insight into a different mindset of MMOs.