maggot

[quote name='Liberty4life' post='18991' date='Oct 28 2008, 06:27 AM']comments on maggot's suggestion rules: 1) agreed, i have a bit of problem what is spoiler and what is not, this is first time in my moderation career that i have to handle with spoilers, i was always rule giver/spam destroyer/warning&ban giver 2)well if we post which spoiler are allowed and which arent to public then we would give out spoilers by ourselfs, right? 3)too rude for this kind of forum, so i disagree 4)everyone should know what is offtopic, well if you arent talking about thing that topic subject tells you this topic is about, and this forum isnt so strict, that means users can get a bit offtopic, but there are limits ofc 5)agreed 6)agreed 7)no petition, at least not against moderators, if you dont like how moderator does his job you fire complain to his superior 8 )disagreed, i say admins have right to write rules and moderator should write rules only if he/she get permission from admin, i asked for that permission few weeks ago, and i got it, the thing is i didnt wrote bigger and better rules because this forum isnt so strict as i mentioned already, this forum is just like any normal forum lots of things are allowed, its just that thing with this spoiler in which i am not so experienced, but as forum will grow there will be need of new better rules and btw i didnt saw new player complaining about spoilers, only old ones, i wonder why is that ?[/quote] 2) by clearly defined, don't mean specifically.. but there should be some sort standard to go by. 3) and 4) those are just my preferences in terms of strictness; my main concern is that there are set rules and these set rules are made known to everyone 7) can see that, but think public discussion about moderator action should be allowed if the superior disagrees with you.. there should be more responsibility on the mods than just to please the superior; they serve the whole forum 8 ) then apply that rule to administrators instead of moderators; they should announce rule creation and deletion So you can see I am not sticking to my original stickiness, but I still want accountability. As for new players complaing about spoilers.. yes, actually a lot of them may like spoilers, and it is only the old players who had to work to learn those things do not like it. But I know for myself that if I were a newbie and found those spoilers, I would be disappointed.. spoilers take out the fun for those who like discovery and accomplishment, and those who just want to get as far ahead as possible with minimum work like spoilers. Does that change anything? Don't think so. Burns: understand you now. And I think you are partially right, not many will care much about these things to keep a democratic system working. But I still think there should be rules that make moderation more consistent and smoother--and users should have the right to contest moderator decisions if they want. Chewett: it is not hard to believe your moderators are dedicated and only mean good, but that does not mean they do not need rules governing their action. For instance, concerning spoilers, why let them each interpret in their own way? Why not have them instead come to a consensus as to what a spoiler is, when they should be deleted, etc. so that people do not face unequal treatment? This way eliminates potential conflict. It is good to hear forum rules are going to be made up. Am mostly concerned with users not knowing how moderators will act and having to predict for themselves what is allowed and what is not. Right now it feels like the moderators are given too much liberty to judge for themselves and this will lead to conflict sometime because of obvious inconsistency.. Don't really want to make the rules myself, but when they come out, I will take a look at them and maybe give some suggestions.

If you still wonder why despite an invitation to an imaginary pub, then the answer is once the game was not more of roleplaying game in terms of asterisks, but rather a roleplaying game in the way of all other mmorpgs except with a lot more innovation and different concepts. This only changed a few months ago, when people started to aim for being rpcs and created roles which they acted out ingame (to the despair of myself and others). Hence why originally, the forums were not for roleplaying but mostly about game development and bugs to be fixed. So really people are not getting out of character, they were never in character in the first place. The people you see roleplaying occasionally in the forums are getting into character. Do you understand, Confused?

So I was wondering why the old support threads are not moved to this new forum. Will the new ones be put in Local Legends when the quest is finished?

...sure, you can judge his action and put whatever label on it you want, but nowhere does it say you cannot exploit bugs or tell others about them. Would whine about the bug existing in the first place more than someone who told others about it. If the bug becomes too easy to exploit then that bug deserves to be removed anyway. the game should be accountable and not depend on restricted player behavior. It was perfectly within Shadowseeker's right to do that.

rotfl. I am truly laughing now.. In the case STF has access to the account of morpheus and did this to you, which I have seen nothing to indicate, this is not abuse. Rpcs have no regulations, really, except they must be in the game developer's favor or else they'll be demoted.. and that is obvious anyway. They are basically gods of the game and can use their own judgment to guide their actions. The few people who protested "rpc abuse" not too long ago concerning a certain rpc named Ren were not responded to by game management except to be told that rpcs can do whatever they want, so regardless of what Ren did it was not abuse and the author of the thread should not have "complained." When the same few people tried then to get regulations in place by starting another thread, there was no reaction at all. Have fun in dreamland.

Actually I don't really understand your point, not in the way where I mean it is idiotic and meaningless, but as in I do not understand what you are trying to communicate... maybe the language barrier is finally getting to me. I am guessing you meant that while my rules seemed nice, you have to keep in mind that we cannot make rules too complex or else it will affect the efficiency of moderator action, though. Am I right? Or are you trying to say something else? If you mean something else maybe you could communicate it better by suggesting alteration/addition to the rules...I don't know if I could follow explanation alone, for some reason I always log onto these forums really late into the night.

I do not think the dojo should be saying players silently agree to the rules of the dojo when they enter until the dojo is officially part of the game and enforced by game rules, not the players. It is like a community forcing its rules on another community.. and the other community was established first, too. What do you think some people feel about how you just take over an area that used to be free like all the others and make it your own to do whatever you want? Players should have the right to decide they don't care for the dojo or its rules, just like the dojo has the right to make up a list and create a community effort punish those players.. they are both valid ways of playing. It is like a realistic mini-society: you can try to cooperate with others or you can alienate yourself in pursuing selfish goals, each way has consequences and advantages. It is one of the reasons why I still like this game. Just don't say it is "mandatory" for a player to go by dojo rules in the game. It is definitely not (not yet), hence why some players don't.

[quote name='Burns' post='18944' date='Oct 27 2008, 07:30 AM']i'd suggest there are two ways of doing something: fast and bureaucratic. if there's a spoiler that needs to be deleted, an offence angainst anyone that has to be edited or a topic that's going somewhat off-topicand needs to be closed, there shouldn't be any complex rules about it, there are enough people who would read and duplicate those things before the mods come around to clse them, but even more if the mods would first have to read through a huge book of rules whether they are allowed to close/edit/delete under exactly those circumstances or not. BUT everybody can always send a pm to the mod who changed your post and ask him/her for reasons, or ask him/her to undo his/her actions, absolutely no problem there. mods will most likely answer within half an hour, and they (almost) never get angry about such pms^^ of course the idea of having a book of rules for the mods is a nice idea, but i think in "cases of emergency", those rules should provide exceptions so the mods can act rather than start reading those books. And, to the rules, i suggest changing the rules according bans from 3 for spoiling and 5 for offtopic to 5 for spoiling and none for offtopic, this forum ahs a veery long life, and it's pretty hard never to tell spoilers because some of us take things for granted that others have no idea about, and some hints can be taken as spoilers by the mods and then, nobody would give any hints anymore =D same for offtopic, bans are a too heavy threat, that would be like putting death penalty on someone for stealing a news paper, it seems just unfair [/quote] Disagree.. in my suggestions I said moderators would have liberty of interpreting those rules as they wish, so they actually would have a lot of freedom in deciding what is a spoiler/spam/etc. unless they are challenged by someone on that interpretation, which likely will not happen unless it is something that is really out of bounds. Guess they wouldn't have so much freedom in deciding what action to take, but it is just logical to have some regulations to ensure consistent moderation, don't think they have to be SO complex that the mods would have to read a "huge book" instead of having them memorized. It looks like a long list I made but actually most of it is about making sure moderators notify users about forum rules (because really there aren't any ones that are official right now) and whenever they take action concerning their posts/topics, also the right of users to challenge moderators, as if that would ever happen. Otherwise it is like moderators have no credibility when they warn/punish a user for doing something but nowhere in the forums does it say it is prohibited. That is too much freedom and it might someday annoy people. And contrary to your beliefs I think it will help the efficiecy of moderators. Sometimes it is hard to tell what to do without any guidelines, unless you are opinionated and just go by your own judgment. That annoys me at least, like when the spoilers in the other thread were not deleted for a week. Agree that people can just pm mods whenever they have a question about moderator action, but there should be rules so that mods notify them that something actually happened; and also what about when the user and moderator disagree? The rules should help with that so it isn't so much of an argument about people's opinions but rather a discussion about the rules and different interpretations. Maybe the punishments in the suggestions are harsh and should be changed yes, but my main point is that there should be regulations concerning punishment for different offenses so it is not like for different users get different punishment for the same offense.

Like I said to Frosty when complaining about how the other thread was locked (in response to which he split some posts off into this one), moderating regulations would be good--but it is stupid to have "no more complaints" as the reason for it. It should be instead to do the best in moderation possible. Complaints are askance for improvement, since moderators are figures of responsibility they should welcome feedback as to how they can help the forums. Regulations would hopefully ensure better quality and accountability of moderators.. but I will still complain if no one does a good job keeping to the regulations or the regulations are not very good anyway. As for "drastic" events, nothing really has happened in my eyes. It seems like dst is stressed or something and because I complained about how spoilers weren't deleted his limit was crossed and he wants out of the stress. Or he said so anyway, maybe he will change his mind. What is special? Don't make it into drama. I am rather happy that this somehow lead to regulations. And suggestions: [list][list=1] [*]Unallowed spoiler should be clearly defined and put in a list of forum rules, wherever those are, so supposedly everyone knows what they can and cannot say and what they should report. Moderators should accordingly delete/edit out spoilers upon sight or report, but also notify the author of post and put in the post itself (if it wasn't deleted completely) the reason why words were deleted. [*]Allowed spoiler should be clearly defined and put in the same list, so supposedly everyone knows what they can and cannot put in plain sight and when they should report to a moderator so it can be put in spoiler tags if the author did not himself. Moderators should accordingly put in spoiler tags those spoilers upon sight or report, but also put in the post itself the reason why the words were hidden. [*]Those who post unallowed spoiler or allowed spoiler in plain sight should be given a verbal warning on first offense, as they did not read/obey the forum rules. They should be given an actual warning on second offense and ban on third. [*]What constitutes as "offtopic" should be clearly defined and put in the list. Those who are offtopic should be given a verbal warning on first two offenses, actual warning on third and fourth and ban on fifth. Moderator action concerning offtopic posts (splitting or deleting) should be clearly regulated somewhere, probably with the part about closing threads. [*]Offenses that will get warnings or harsher punishment like IP ban should be clearly delineated in a list and must include how to enforce regulations concerning those offenses. I have no idea as to what they are currently, except sometimes cussing has received warnings. [*]The reasons a thread might be closed must be clearly delineated in a list, and moderators must always post a reason why they close a thread when doing so, unless it is an emergency or an exception outlined in the list, i.e. spam that is put in trash can and made invisible to regular users. Author must always, without exception, be notified of the reason (and they have the right to petition). [*]Regular users should recognize the discretion of moderators in interpreting regulation as authority and should behave accordingly, but they have the right to a.) petition against the rules b.) petition against the moderator. A vote should then occur; majority wins. If the rules/moderator loses, then the rule must be changed/deleted or the moderator must change his interpretation and corresponding enforcement unless he wants to quit moderating. [*]Moderators have the right to add rules as needed without confirmation but those rules should be announced and subject to right of petition. Moderators cannot delete rules without majority user approval in a poll. [/list] [/list] Those are mine. Feel free to debate, discuss or add. I know they seem rather complex and involve a lot of work to "clearly delineate" and organize when things like petitions will probably never happen unless a rule or mod really pisses someone off, but they would make someone who's paranoid about authority liberty like me very happy.

Adi was the game writer, though it is true he is retired now. Vali was the artist. He is retired too. He left after having a pretty silly argument with the game developer's wife on the forums. It was good drama (you can still read it if you know where to look), but it is also bad because he was very talented. As the other person said, Glor now handles artwork but the majority of what you see now is Vali's work.

Don't care whether or not you are mod... that is your decision. I criticize when I see something might want improvement, but if you would rather get your peace and quiet instead rather than doing that improvement, that is fine. And no, I should not be a mod because I do not want to be one. Just like, it seems, you.

[quote name='Frosty' post='18922' date='Oct 26 2008, 09:42 PM']I suggest you start making use of the report post button a bit more then!? We do try our best, but have you seen how long some of the post are??? Also I think were all on the same time zone[/quote] Maybe but when I see that the topic is a week old and the spoilers are still there I assume the mods have already read the topic and judged the content.. it is not like I log on everyday and read all the topics you are supposed to moderate so I can report them for you. And these posts aren't very long. But yes, maybe the other users should report posts "a bit more then!?" [quote name='dst' post='18923' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:06 PM']I prefer to let the users edit their own posts.[/quote] But you don't tell them they should edit. Besides, like Frosty said, the spoilers were numerous and large. Why tell them to edit when you can edit yourself? Too lazy? Poor newbie who happens upon the spoilers in the while it takes for the users to edit themselves.

Agreed. Even the part about where the clues are should be deleted.. Would hate to be casually reading and find that out as a newbie who had no idea before. No more sense of accomplishment. And the moderators are slow in deleting spoilers...

No real surprises here. Many including I have already complained that the battle system has major bugs, like the frozen alliance counter, and also mechanics that do not work well with player behavior (the honor system). My stupid hope was that the game developer was planning to begin changes to the combat system early if he was going to do something like give everyone a balanced counter and 5k honor, (it is kind of stupid to do it and not make changes while calling it a "gift" when it does not really help anything much) but it does not seem like it. So just think of it as a nice gift that basically tells you alliance members (and anyone else who keeps a balance), stop thinking of combat as part of the game, at least not a part you can enjoy, until those promised changes come. Whenever they do. Who knows, others might rejoice because they envy your unfair advantages in the head contests and will not think about how they themselves are being affected.

You are right. How many dollars is your love worth?

Create a random account and spend your $1 of love to put your clown/joker/Pierrot on it. Or if you already have a second account put it there.

Metal Bunny, penmanship is atrocious. And what were those blobs. :lol: Um. Recalls my middleschool days. Had a few seatmates who were a little behind in class, liked to draw incomprehensible comics all the time. Just like yours.

I know that updates concerning the combat system have yet to take place, and the current one does not provide enough incentive for players to keep their balances, thus making the whole combat system work badly because of the unintentional effect on the honor-reward system. Most know what I am talking about, if you do not, ask for an explanation and it will be provided. The combat system could work well if all players take it upon themselves to keep their balances, although that is an unreasonable expectation. My question is, do you plan to keep your newly reset balance? Please give additional input on the matter if you have any.. you can say why you plan to do whichever course of action you will take and what you think of the reset. I see more unhappy loss farming on the horizon.

Maybe I should not have showed my annoyance, but while I may have had some paragraphs less related to the topic and more in response to Ren's personal slights, I do not think the discussion derailed and you might see that if you read past my annoyed words, moderator. My last was primarily concerned about the Adventure Log's objectivity and while it may have been directed personally to Ren, it is a valid concern for me and I wish he had replied. I find it within my rights to express any feelings I have, but I regret my lack of composure. It bothers me that Ren has deleted the content all of his posts...they were very telling. This discussion was very important to me because of what it told me about the players and the game. Is there any way I could get records of those posts somewhere, or is it impossible now? Otherwise, like Ren, I propose that the thread be closed because I see no point in it..I do not think he is searching for opinions any longer. But if you are going to delete it for whatever reason, please tell me first so I can save it onto the computer and try to analyze what Ren said in each post he deleted. And Ren, I would still encourage you to continue to try improve your Adventure Log, preferably in the areas of character portrayal and objectivity but otherwise in being able to write more smoothly with a word limit. Do not try to do all the work, there are people with talent in the game you should be happy to work with and will help a lot with the workload...good luck finding them. Try make the Adventure Log the best it can be.

How unfriendly, stormrunner. It is only an opinion...forums are for discussion, and Ren seemed to be asking for input although I do not really think he appreciates it after the fact. For that matter I do not see how any of your points counteracted my own ideas, not convincing enough to make me shut up. But good to see that someone other than I and Ren has an actual opinion about the progress of the Adventure Log. I am not sure I would have preferred a direct conversation...fuming as you term it is thinking and organizing points to create a structured discussion for me. But if you had told me so, I would not have minded coming to chat about this Adventure Log, I do not think it is hard for me to place my position and respond on this matter. Hardly see the difference concerning your neutrality and the neutrality of the Archivists if you allow your own lack of neutrality to affect your Archivist work. Don't pretend you have less control than you do..unless you speedwrite and do not reread your work, it is not that things are slipping your awareness, it is that you cannot resist allowing them into the writing. If you cannot resist, very well then, but I rather you not pretend you are trying to be neutral. Oh, Ren, dear love who brings forth waves of tenderness, most of us think we know best, and my impression is that you are included. Wish more value were placed upon my opinion as a legitimate impression but I guess I am not loved enough. Don't need to say I am right or agree to change your ways...but don't need to be so hurtfully dismissive either. Well you have repeated often enough that you do not try to please everyone, so if you think so lowly of my opinion I suppose it is good of you to be so truthful. At least feelings are mutual. Next time, please tell me right off my opinion is not wanted so I do not make you waste so much effort complaining afterwards.

And it needs protectors because of that? Also annoying how people gather around it and pretend to chat with it, largely because that is the first thing I see when I log on daily to check announcements. Dolts. Ought to move somewhere else sometime, when I feel like spending the energy to click an arrow. Akasha is still here, logs on regularly. Don't know if her role will expand though, would be cool if it did since it was one of the first... I forget where her branched ended and any consequences of it to the game.

So it is up to the grump to say hello first. A wonderful community we have here, don't we? Welcome to the game. Hope you enjoy it more than I do. The only pleasure I derive is from criticizing it in the forums and making fun of the players I observe ingame within my head. I think the grump is starting to post too much because he wants to procrastinate from doing work. A grump does not say hello casually. Be gratified.. you are privileged.

There is another thread called RP Points in which it was suggested normal players could give/subtract points (plus a reason) for the roleplaying of other players. I think the creator went ahead and contacted the game developer about it. Maybe it is a hybrid of the two ideas.

No, you are the one who didn't catch what I meant with sacrificing spelling.. it was just a short note because I often spy spelling mistakes in the Adventure Log which can easily be eliminated with a spell check. You can go on about how you're not a grammar Nazi and so on but, how much can it take to do a spellcheck? I know you were Wodin's commander and your history is one of the reasons I believed you were biased in the adventure log. Do not make the mistake of thinking I do not know MD and it's people, even if I have not been vocal until now. maggot is my newest account in a series of many.. I have been watching you all for a long time, you just did not know... and will never going to know whether or not you knew me by another name before B) Back on subject, call me a pain-liberal if you will, but it is annoying, do you really fit your role much, besides your writing ability?...if you must have your limits and adhere to judgment, at least say so publically instead of claiming you are neutral. Rather have an unbiased Master Archivist, but an biased Master Archivist is at least realistic, just make it clear so I do not have unnecessary expectations. You misinterpret my words. Don't mean to say I am the representative of the majority--that would be idiotic, because no one supports what I say. That does not mean you should assume I am minority, although I think the majority is wondering why the "heck" I care so much, truthfully.. it is not like my continual criticism of different aspects in the game wins me anything in terms of popularity. Anyway, how to say.. my words express the thoughts of someone who reads your work, a legitimate impression, something that could be reached by a real person, so regardless of whether or not it is right you should take into consideration the things which made that impression. It may not seem like much, but felt like you felt the only thing I was doing was attacking. And yes, I have heard your speech about how people are disgusting as a whole, you say it more than you realize. Agreed. If you would like to know something curious, I find you one of a prime example of why I agree.. probably because you do not balance your hate of people as a whole with love for every individual. Yes, Ren, I love you and everyone, and hope I make you grossly disorientated so that your head pains with this tangent. Really don't know why you are spending the time to tell me about my nitpickiness. It is up to you to prioritize and decide how much value you place on opinion. But since you keep kindly inviting a reply by doing so, I have no idea how your Adventure Log is more fun than it would be with more character potrayal, must be missing something. Does your style of writing make more people know who are involved in your writing? The original Adventure Log was also related to players, I do not see the point you're trying to communicate. If anything, more character portrayal would make the characters seem more familiar as similar to the interaction between those rpcs and regular players, no? And how does the fact that people who just read the Adventure Log don't involve themselves in the game (which is self-evident) make the Adventure Log more fun? Clarify if you wish, don't if you don't. Anyway rather you say you reached that goal for yourself and the people who responded positively to you, because you are not speaking for me and I do not appreciate generalization. Thank you for acknowledging my opinion, though don't know if you are doing more than dismissing it based on your own assumptions...like I said, it is yours to do with as you wish regardless of my noble preferences, Master Archivist. A few more comments: for the amount of regret you show, your error you reveal annoys me much. Don't care if Kiddies are so stupid as to construe themselves as stereotypical evil peoples by following your dark ritual suggestion, but an Archivist involving himself in events that he chooses to write about is pretty idiotic. It goes beyond having a bias. Realistic, I suppose...but where is the limit? Hope you don't repeat. And no, your explanation which attempts to change my impression of the players of the game does not convince me. Did you force Kiddies to go along with your dark-magic ritual? The fact that they accepted is almost the same as them coming up with it by themselves. Did you also force them to do all the other stereotypical evil actions? How about those Brightlings? Did you also suggest actions for them, to make them seem more Necro-ish? Your action probably had little effect overall, don't give yourself so much credit. Don't think the game is stereotypical... Think the players just make stereotypical characters with stereotypical motives, which in turn affects the Adventure Log. To the contrary I felt the story, the one written for the game by professional writers, had much more depth. Can only hope players will not be given the ability to upsurp roles of angiens and shades because who knows how they would characterize them.. at least this way, they are roleplaying their own original characters which can be flat as they want for all it matters. It is accurate reflection of the playerbase because they are the creations of those players. The above was just in reference to the Necro and Golemus masses. I know there are good roleplayers in the game, some of them are in the Adventure Log. What bugs me is that the Adventure Log does not reflect them like it does so accurately for the masses. Read The Hobbit, not the other Lord of the Ring books. Don't read a lot of books, especially not ones in English, but enough to feel be able to relate the Adventure Log to the ones I disliked. There's the same types in Spanish as in English. My hope is that you will gain those writers and the experience you are lacking so that you are more able to create an Adventure Log that does more than portray the overall. As time goes on it should happen regardless of difficulty eventually, provided you make that one of your goals.. Want to prompt you to keep on trying to improve. Not prompting any new reply.. I have gotten a discussion from this topic, and that is what I wanted. This post is just my response, little more than commentary now (enjoy my returned insults, Ren, I enjoyed them very much). If you do not have anything to add except that once again you are not going spend effort to try to please everyone, I will not necessarily be pleased by the unneeded effort you spend. If you do have something to add or wish to respond, go ahead.

You shouldn't be angry that someone is confused, and he's not really asking you to repeat things.. he's asking for clarification. Actually, most of his questions are about whether or not your points are valid. I know they haven't been implemented yet--was responding to this: "no it wont became game rule, it will stay society rule, but developer will help society to uphold this rules by them selfs (by giving dojo staff that ability)" Disagree. It would be pretty much a game rule not to attack in dojo if the developer gave those powers to dojo staff. Haven't really seen Vaul's suggestions suggested before, but even if it was, how can you expect people to know when the forums are in such a disarray? It at least doesn't say it on the list of New Ideas, and it's easy to miss topics when using the search function just because of the huge amount of them. So don't be so angry. Sorry, meant LHOs when I wrote about moderators enforcing dojo rules with their special powers. I know at least abbadun was using some sort of spell to punish dojo rule breakers, and since you said that the locking spell wasn't granted yet, I believe it was one of his LHO spells.