Tokens

[Shadowseeker]

Seems like I will be the first to write here..about tokens.

Yes, tokens majorly affect gameplay. Especially the ones giving attack and initiative, but also defense.

Adding the excessive creatureboost that exists, someone with 1 GG drachorn (several tokens) and 1 rustgold can deal more damage than any other free player using stats (leaving angien's energyburn out) can do, and it hits faster than anything else (even angiens, only tokens or more boost could beat it). Stack it up to pile enough creatureboost, and we have the current demigod in MD.

Solutions might be:

Lower the creatureboost auras of [Imperial Aramor, Rustgolds, Bloodpact archers, Angiens], or edit them to be additive, not multiplicative. Then stat grinders could overpower token users. The wind drach could keep its aura, and should be placed higher..it's so rare, and yet boosts less than a rustgold which also does freeze and can choose between damage and weaken.

Or leave auras as is it, and instead add an option in Wishshop where you buy a pack of tokens. Out of all sets, which will be scattered across your creatures as well.

Funny, I thought with so many complaints I hear more people would scream for it.

[Burns]

The rest of us doesn't know where to start...

I'd rather go for crit-boost as major evil-doer (as in, use 'rusty and bp' as heading), but crit boost is unforuntately the one thing that makes people spend money, so :/

Oh, and might i add: http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5107-combat-balance-and-activity/page__view__findpost__p__53783

No harm done to tokens, crit boosts, and MDs income, and still a way to overcome all of it with activity and dedication... i think xD

Edited March 4, 2010 by Burns

[Firsanthalas]

Random token application also seems to add to things though. Some tokens are completely useless on certain creatures or indeed can make them useless.
Couple this with the fact that people are getting what they want on creatures anyway, by paying money etc and you have a system which currently favours those with money/coins/whatever to spare.

Another thing is this. Currently tokens completely mess up creatures like rusties. While I agree that you shouldn't need money to play, spending money should give you something nice. Currently it seems that rusties are becoming more and more devalued unless you lob tokens onto them (you can actually apply that to any creature, but rusties are a good example as its really hard to get them with just free credits).
Basically combat seems to be devolving into who has the most rusties (and a few other creatures like angiens) and the most tokens on them. Given that rusties and tokens require money...........

(I know that some people don't spend money and manage to get things via trading, but to me that is also an issue.)

On the reverse it seems to me that there is nothing really for the people that do pay money via a subscription. Okay okay, you can get bonus credits blah blah, but pretty much anything you can purchase can be gained by trading it seems. Granted there are powerups and boosters, but some of them seem pricey to me and not great. 1 credit for 1500 heat for example. Paying credits for random allocated tokens, that wheeler dealers are managing to get as they want, or indeed make a profit from providing the service. Personally, I kind of feel that people are funding other people's pockets at times rather than MD itself.

Just my opinions of course

[dragonrider7]

Well!! I dont have a solution to suggest, but have the same opinion as Shadowseeker...... the tokens have made the life of the minnows really horrible.

-dragon

Edited March 4, 2010 by dragonrider7

[Shadowseeker]

Actually about rustgolds having tokens..they are kinda useless. I had the methods to put some on them, but they are more "freebies", in case the drachorn gets frozen. An effective way of tokening wouldn't give them those.

Still, the main flaw is that tokens mess everything up hard.

[awiiya]

I for one am exhausted of Tokens. Yesterday I tried to train a Knator, and every time I attacked someone they defeated me, driving me into the ground.

So there is no doubt for me that there needs to be another way for tokens to be implemented.

A couple of ideas:

1. Tokens only work on others who use tokens. This would sort of create another MP, without having another MP, if that makes sense. This does not mean you could not attack those who use tokens, instead it means that their tokens do not work if you have no tokens on your creatures. The option for tokened battles would still exist, but those who did not want to use them would not be punished.

2. Remove the initiative boost. If we agree that Angiens will be able to, in time, defeat tokened creatures, then the only thing stopping a balanced system is the initiative boost. What about giving Angiens tokens? That would imbalance the system again, so perhaps this is a two part suggestion: Angiens should not be able to be tokened.

3. Tokens could be removed altogether, but you would end up with many unhappy people. Also possible is limiting their effect in general.

The MD Shop should, in my opinion, give the players things that are aesthetically pleasing but not necessary for base actions like fighting. In my opinion, achievements allow for the PERFECT MD shop item. Not only do they not provide any true benefit for the player, but I know that they are incredibly appealing, especially if made public. You could pay 1 credit to unlock each credit, or have 1 credit for a pack, it's up to you.

That's my take, but the combat system really is unplayable with things as they are.

Awi

Edited March 4, 2010 by awiiya

[Jubaris]

perhaps limiting the damage that comes from tokens (total damage including with the boosts) to 10k
that would bring Lifestealers back in game too

[lightsage]

10k? That'd completely negate weaken defence as well (including weaken def in combinating with anything but tokens)

Not to mention a severe lack incentive to buy shopcreats...

Edited March 4, 2010 by lightsage

[Pipstickz]

Why not just reduce token boosts? Enough to still make them nice to have, but not totally change the outcome of battles.

I also like the idea of people with tokens only attacking other people with tokens, but that would lower the amount of people you can attack anyways. Why not have two attack buttons, one for token fights and one for non-token fights? Of course, that would make defense strategies change, but a little challenge never hurt anyone. Or, if that doesn't work, there could be token and non-token rituals too. Anyways, all of this would mean more work for Mur >>

[apophys]

I agree tokens need to be changed.

But why not simply add a negative effect to tokens? Hmm? Let them balance themselves.


Place a debuff effect on each token on the creature of 3-5% of its total stats (including token effects). Pin this to the % slider. This debuff would stack with each token, and could maybe be different for each type of token.

This would eventually cap the creature's power. For 5%, it takes 19 tokens for max power, at about 14.7 times the creature's original power, assuming each token adds double the creature's original stats.
Graph: y = (2x + 1)(1 - .05)^(2x)
x is the number of tokens; y is the overall power.


Also, on every tokened creature, reduce the strength of all other tokened creatures in play, by 10%, and by 1% per token on it (multiplicatively, so .9*.99^x).
This would have inverse relation on the % slider; at 100% a creature is not affected, at 0% the creature is maximally weakened.

This would allow otherwise useless tokens to have a disruption value.


EDIT: Clarification. The debuffs should apply after all auras (but still calculating on pre-aura stats), so that TSs could counter tokens.

Edited March 5, 2010 by apophys

[Shadowseeker]

Still, tokens are something you pay for. Before suggesting anything, please consider: Why should anyone go buy tokens if they are useless, or negative even?

That's why I suggest something that doesnt harm tokens too great, otherwise nobody would use them.

[Yoshi]

[quote name='apophys' date='04 March 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1267742099' post='55748']
I agree tokens need to be changed.

But why not simply add a negative effect to tokens? Hmm? Let them balance themselves.


Place a debuff effect on each token on the creature of 3-5% of its total stats (including token effects). Pin this to the % slider. This debuff would stack with each token, and could maybe be different for each type of token.

This would eventually cap the creature's power. For 5%, it takes 19 tokens for max power, at about 14.7 times the creature's original power, assuming each token adds double the creature's original stats.
Graph: y = (2x + 1)(1 - .05)^(2x)
x is the number of tokens; y is the overall power.


Also, on every tokened creature, reduce the strength of all other tokened creatures in play, by 10%, plus 1% for every token on it.
This would have inverse relation on the % slider; at 100% a creature is not affected, at 0% the creature is maximally weakened.

This would allow otherwise useless tokens to have a disruption value.
[/quote]


Actually, tokens are already somewhat balanced among other tokens since it's random, and some tokens will actually decrease say your attack to boost up defense, when you don't want that defense but would rather have the attack. But then you can't have the attack due to principles, and if you think about it, a fully tokened crit would have flaws in it depending on what your principles are.

[awiiya]

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='04 March 2010 - 01:44 PM' timestamp='1267739050' post='55747']
Why not just reduce token boosts? Enough to still make them nice to have, but not totally change the outcome of battles.I also like the idea of people with tokens only attacking other people with tokens, but that would lower the amount of people you can attack anyways. Why not have two attack buttons, one for token fights and one for non-token fights? Of course, that would make defense strategies change, but a little challenge never hurt anyone. Or, if that doesn't work, there could be token and non-token rituals too. Anyways, all of this would mean more work for Mur >>
[/quote]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but what I meant was not that you could not attack others with tokens, but instead that their tokens would not work if you had no tokens yourself.

Awi

[Jester]

[quote name='awiiya' date='04 March 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1267747044' post='55751']
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but what I meant was not that you could not attack others with tokens, but instead that their tokens would not work if you had no tokens yourself.

Awi
[/quote]


I don't think that would work. It would mean that the only time you'd want to buy tokens is if you could buy a ton. Otherwise, a single tree with claw 1 in your ritual would cause you to be attacked by fully tokened drachs. Also, it would become better to stat farm than to buy tokens.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='awiiya' date='04 March 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1267747044' post='55751']
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but what I meant was not that you could not attack others with tokens, but instead that their tokens would not work if you had no tokens yourself.

Awi
[/quote]

I think token/non-token rituals would be better, for exactly the reason Jester pointed out.

[Kamisha]

I'm sorry but im usually the bad guy in these cases. I'm not saying this for personal benefit considering I haven't payed a cent not because I don't want to just because I don't have a good method (at least yet).

Though on the thought of tokens I'm neutral because yes I get beat up by them but in order to keep the game running they have to be incorporated. I could agree with reducing there effect but complete removal is not an option. Where do you think Mur gets the money for the servers. There are two big places tokens and creature capacity increases.

You have to look at both sides before you make a final decision on this.

[apophys]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='04 March 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1267744237' post='55749']
Still, tokens are something you pay for. Before suggesting anything, please consider: Why should anyone go buy tokens if they are useless, or negative even?

That's why I suggest something that doesnt harm tokens too great, otherwise nobody would use them.
[/quote]
EDIT: I know you didn't point this specifically at my suggestion, but I find it a very valid point that I want to clarify my suggestion with respect to.


Tokens are only "useless" if they end up on the wrong crit. This is something I actually improve in my suggestion (part 2), by giving a disruption value against other tokened rituals.

Well-tokened rits at 100% would counter well-tokened rits at 0%.

In my suggestion, a token would have overall negative effect (by part 1) only if it landed on a creature with 19 tokens already, assuming all have a 5% debuff, and assuming all tokens equal. I doubt this would be the case; debuffs should be different on different tokens, and even absent on others.
The negative effect could be amplified by overstacking like 50 power tokens on an Unholy Priest, and if the opponent has a Tormented Soul, the UP could do massive negative Martirism.

Stats would never actually become negative on their own, because this compounds multiplicatively, not additively.
A creature with "too many tokens" would still be useful for token disruption in 100% slider rituals.


It's just a creative cap, which makes the currently unbeatable rits counterable (using your own tokens or TSs), and does not seem to create new unbeatable rits.
Tokens would still be very good, and would still crush non-tokened rits without TSs. The incentive to buy is still there.

Edited March 5, 2010 by apophys

[CrazyMike]

When the tokens first came out, some players with very high principles was cleaning everyone out.

Hence the cap of 4K on principles to stop the existence of DemiGods!

The randomness and the cap on some tokens and principles should be good enough to limit the tokens.

Stat grinders can still overcome them with sheer hard work.

[Shadowseeker]

Urm..CrazyMike, let me just name a number. And then you decide please if grinders can do it.

50k initiative.

(in fact it's even more)

If you can get that much just by grinding..that is assuming a full heat battle, balance, gives you like..0.48 per fight? Been some time since I fought, but I think that was it.

That is essentially 100 k fights, which means 2 months of nonstop farming vs 10 dummies, given that you would have enough AP and exp loss, and balance methods to do it.

So practically you wish to farm at least..8months? Just for that initiative, and still be slower than a properly boosted drach. True, once you are past that you would win hard, but even then pretty vulnerable for freeze, because you can only use one creature.

If you want to use 2, then you need..at least 1 and half year if you ask me, or just some bots which do everything for you.

Please considert he facts (and older discussions) before posting such an uninformed post.

[Redd]

So currently, auras affect token boosts but not stat-influence, corect?

I suggest to reverse this, meaning auras will only affect base stats of the crits + stat influence of player, and separate token booost in the calculation..
This means that, at 0%pp, auras will only affect the base stats of the crits. That may mean that boost auras at that point is negligible if used with massively tokened crits.. As the pray power increase, aura efect will increase, token effect will decrease..

This way, outrageous atk/init bonuses will be lowered, and I think there's no need for major alterations in the individual token effects/auras. Therefore, though still very hard, atleast there is a chance for grinders to defeat fully tokened rituals..

I'll also add that use of token in defense needs to be fixed too..

[dst]

1.Even balanced and full heated the stat bonus is much much lower then 0.48.
2.Only few auras work:freez, anti freez, stat boost.

As for how to change tokens, I think I posted somewhere quite a few ideas and I am too lazy to repeat myself and/or look for that post.

[Orlando Gardiner]

I think tokens should become more rare. Completly tokened creatures (exspecially drachorn's) have became face roll creatures, no matter what you do, you win anyway.

I feel like making the tokens more rare, let's say that all sort of creatures have a certain amount of tokens they can have, like 2 or 3, which should not be acuired easily. It now costs only md credits, let it cost huge amount of vitality, honour, silver or age.


let's say that you can buy a token only one every 20 days, this reduces the amount of tokens hugely, and if tokens also grow stronger over time, so let's say a good token gains his full potential only afther 100 days. this way someone with tokens is stronger, but takes longer and will be less tokenend.

ps: therefor I still think the power of tokens should be reduced, but that's an almost impossible unfair proces for everyone who bought tokens so far..

oowh: en there should be abilities that neglect tokens, creature or tokens, so that it does not always mean that the tokened side wins

[dst]

No. Tokens are a source of income for the game. They should be changed but not in that direction.

[Firsanthalas]

Agreed. Also, trying to restrict tokens would actually just make them more powerful for those that happen to already have them. It would make it even harder for people that don't have tokens.
Tokens should give a nice boost, but not too much. They should be nice to have, but not necessary. Right now they are falling more and more into the necessary category.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[MRG]

OK I AM NOT SHY OF USING THE SHOP, AS I HAVE NO PROBLEM SUPPORTING A GAME I ENJOY AND GETTING A NICE REWARD FOR IT.
HOWEVER I DON'T THINK THAT THE PROBLEM TRULY LAYS WITH THE TOKENS. IT IS THE SAME OLD SCENARIO AS BEFORE!

WHEN I FIRST STARTED, THE ULTIMATE RITUAL WAS A MAXED GRASSAN WITH 60K VE BEHIND IT, UNTOUCHABLE FOR A WHILE. THAT IS LAUGHABLE NOW! TIMES MOVED AND SO DID RITS, THEN YOU HAD THE SELECT FEW WHO HAD GOTTEN THEIR PAWS ON THE DRACHORN. THEY VERY SOON BECAME THE UNSTOPPABLE ELITE. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID THEY WERE UNTOUCHABLE AND TO A POINT STILL ARE TO THIS DAY.

WHAT IS NEEDED IS A BALANCE IN CREATURES, EVERY ONE HAVING A WEAKNESS AND A STRENGTH. MAKE THE GAME ONCE MORE ABOUT RITUAL MAKING AND IDEAS. USING THE GREY MATTER. GO ALONG THE LINES OF ELEMENTS, ROCK, PAPER, SCISSORS STYLE.

IF YOU WANT TO COUGH UP AND BUY TOKENS THEN YOU SHOULD GAIN AN ADVANTAGE, I DONT SEE THEM AS THE PROBLEM, ITS MORE THE CRITS THAT THEY ARE GOING ONTO HAVING NO BALANCE, THATS WHERE THE FUNDAMENTAL FLAW IS. YOU MAKE SOMETHING ELITE AND WITHOUT WEAKNESS, YOU MAKE A PROBLEM THAT WILL NOT BE UNDONE.

Edited March 15, 2010 by MRG