Initiative

[Burns]

As it is, claw 3 boosts init by 1/3 of the principle that fuels it.
A whole lot of testing shows that almost everything tokens do to creature stats can be overcome by a bloody f-ing lot of training... except for init in such measure.

So, i think it's a too unbalanced advantage, specially with crit-boost working as it is, and would like to see the init-boost decreased to 1/100, and crit boost not influencing init. (morale could still give init imo, that creature is greatly undervalued anyway, and would make way for new rits)
Since init is pretty hard to get, 40 is still a major advantage, a lot more of an advantage than 1500 attack, for example.

Thanks for your attention

[Redd]

Couple 40 init and 6x morale means a rit with 6 of that said crit will hit first everytime. Add full tokens and its other aura, then I think its enough to overthrow drachs.. Or atleast to defend from a drach rit..
So I don't really agree on that part where you remove the influence of crit boost to init..

But yea, initiative should be balanced.. 1/100 sounds good..

[Czez]

Plenty of people have 1k init now without tokens. The few tokens that do boost init are all that give weaker players a chance, and no more than a chance. It does not imply lack of training or effort to need to rely on tokens. Wasn't this their intended purpose, to overcome some of the gross inequity in skills and give another path to a more level playing field?

[dst]

Czez, you flanked math, haven't you?
1k of init is LOW. Is waaay too low if you compare it to the init given by tokens+boosters.

[Czez]

Claw 3 gives 1333 with maxed principles, right? For me, this is in balance now.

[Burns]

ah, but it gives 1333 to ONE creature, and you can have it on all 6 of them...makes... uhm... 8k? i flanked maths, too...

I've been doing a lot of grinding, and i mean a lot, really, a lot, but init over 8k? PLUS, crit boost ignores influence, but multiplies tokens?

...

What more do i need to say?

[Czez]

How many rits do you really see with 6 init tokens? What does a balanced system look like to you?

[Burns]

balance goes far, very far, further than one token or one creature.
You'll never do a really balanced system with just one bright idea... even though Seeker once got pretty close to it, imo.

What we can do much easier is working down the checklist of the worst inequalities and toy with them.
If it turns out that the direction was wrong, or gave another thing an impact too big, fair enough, new priorities for the next round of toying.

the objective of such simple shop complains is not more balance, but less imbalance, if you get that point.

If you want true balance, right now, you'll have to go and re-invent the whole system, basically from scratch...
If you don't mind doing a bit more of testing and trying, you can have it with the current system, some day.

[Czez]

It is not a solution if it only addresses balance Within an already elite group of fighters and not for the rest of us.

I will give an example, because I have one. I consider myself an average player. I have an angien rit I have been working on since the shrine opened, close to a year ago. I train and gind daily, however without the dedication of many. My personal initiative is still shy of 500. I bought tokens from the shop and let them fall randomly on a full barnyard. I was lucky some landed on angien eggs. I have never owned a BP or a rustgold. The angiens finally matured and are awesome! They can challenge some drach rits. But I still lose 90% of the time against elite players, and usually in 0 rounds. Because of a couple of init tokens, I do not lose 100% of the time.
Do you think that is unfair?

I always wanted to see something other than tokens, and I still think we should have skills capped the way principles were. The principles cap was effective, imo, and we still have inentive to buy tokens from the shop.

[Burns]

Of course it's unfair that you get smacked 100% of the time with an invincible first strike kill, that's the whole point!

Is it not the very thing i'm complaining about, that you can't get a chance against a claw3 token without having one or two yourself? -.-

[Czez]

I should lose against people who put a lot more work and money into their rituals. But you are right there are a handful out there that are uninterestingly dominant. An advantage should not be the same as a guarantee.

Given what we have, what does nerfing the init tokens get us? Losing 100% of the time to some untokened as well as to tokened rits is not going to feel better. How does that create a more just system and also maintain shop incentives?

[Burns]

uhm...
when their init is 40 plus influence, devided by 6 for a full rit, you can actually be faster than them, and take their sure first strike advantage away?
If they have a save first strike, and they do have a save first strike with claw3 with crit-boost, well, then you have no chance, ever.

When their first strike is not that certain, and with just 40 plus influence it simply isn't against a rit with just 2-3 creatures instead of 6, then there's a chance to win, does that sound unfairer than status quo?

If there's a rit that kills your rit ALL time, you need a new rit.
But if it kills all rits that can be built without MDShop 95% of the time, then it's a pretty unfair advantage imo...

[Yoshi]

How about you just grind to get your defence up? Make your crits able to withstand the inital attack and then fight back.

[juntaozhu15]

being a full drachorn user myself, I know of very few ppl that can survive my first attack with a ritual that still has enough power to fight back, sure you can boost 1 angien and have it survive my 250k ish first hit, then you kill 1 drachy (assuming you're not frozen by my 5 rusties) but by killing that drachy you also kill yourself (or even 4 drachs with multitarget)

thus you would need more then 1 creature and so far I know of maybe 5 people that can put more then 250k vita on 3-4 creatures (though I haven't trained/talked with some of the grinders for over 2 years, so ppl's vitas might have skyrocketed, I have not seen that though)

[Shadowseeker]

5? Make it 10 or so I think..

I remember one particular rit that had over 2.5m ve in it, total.. M as in MILLION.

[Burns]

that's because you guys still use the good old drachy rit, other creatures can produce damages well beyond sanity, and i'm not talking about 500k here... more like 2-3m, for each creature, obviously, and without massive VE grind like Leixer's... meager 50k max Vit would do.

But completely aside of the matter whether you can or can't survive the atomic bomb, it's about whether the atomic bomb should be able to hit you at the speed of light, or come in a B52, if you allow the reference...
The readymade Tomcat can't fight against the bomb itself, but it can bring down the B52 before it gets around to drop said bomb, you get the idea?

And getting a bit more than 1/6th of a vets init sounds a lot more userfriendly than getting roughly the init of 3 years of massive grinding, 50 years with crit boost kicking in.

[Shadowseeker]

Still, that would massively unboost many rits..and unbalance it all to angiens, so it's not exactly a solution either.

Drach rits are still supposed to be stronger than angiens, if you compare them valuewise..one requires some expeensive creats some are free..

[Muratus del Mur]

claw 3 bonus reduced to 1/20 instead of 1/3
lets see how this one goes.

[Czez]

What about the other init tokens, the Blood Drops?

[Shadowseeker]

They don't really increase anything..2% is a laughable amount of like 2 or 1 initiative.

[Grido]

could the text on the creature pages be changed to reflect the change please?

[Czez]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='29 April 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1272556831' post='58909']
They don't really increase anything..2% is a laughable amount of like 2 or 1 initiative.
[/quote]
So what about this, from an actual log (name changed):

[font="Georgia"][blooddrop3] XXX gets 940 attack (20 percent) and 260 initiative (20 percent).[/font]


edit: tested.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Czez

[Muratus del Mur]

what creature page exactly u mean, cant remember where i placed it. thx
ps. or u talk about token list in box?

[Pipstickz]

[claw3] Joe Johnson gets 143 attack, power and initiative based on Principles.

It still says that in the battle log, can you change it?

[Muratus del Mur]

change what? it still does that, just 1/20 instead of 1/3