Discussion About Avatars.

[Shadowseeker]

Well, in response to some pictures that were seen on the net:

Where is the border when a copied picture is original again?

I noticed a really similiar part in some avatars..similiar enough to almost say it's almost tracing in some bits.

I'd like to ask the community, is that okay for our avatars, or is it not? If you scroll down you'll see some rough overlaps done by me..which are close to be identical in some parts, and the two original pictures. One was from a cool blog, and one is actually the Venus painted by Boticelli.

(blog:http://madaunt.blogspot.com/)
(Venus di Milo (might be known differntly..by Boticelli): A very famous classical picture)

I agree that artists get influenced. They train using certain pictures. But is that really original?

Also, please take a look at this:
http://marvel.com/universe/Absorbing_Man

There's another avatar uploaded that looks...similiar.

If you haven't noticed, the artworks are all by Sir Kamil. From the way he commented in his other thread, I understood it that he fully claims that his pictures are all fully original, and not stolen from anywhere. To me this isn't acceptable, what are your thoughts?

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='04 October 2009 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1254653055' post='43664']
Ok, i just received an other info of an existing (already uploaded) avy being an exact match with an other picture from the web. I am so so sorry that i have to work sometimes with this kind of (crap) artists. Unfortunately i can't check all the drawings for avies myself. Now I am even more angry on the "artisans guild". I assure you that from now on i will pay much more attention to all suspect drawings and not allow representations of known characters anymore, regardless if they are copied or not.

[/quote]


[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='07 October 2009 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1254872984' post='43872']

An other thing, for ALL artists reading this. When you copy a character, do you have to copy it in the exact same positio as you find an image on the net? Are you not capable or creative enough to change something about it, or is it so much easyer to be a human scaner?
From now on i will not accept art that represents known characters anyway.
[/quote]

Edited May 16, 2010 by Shadowseeker

[Burns]

that prison bloke doesn't really look like the Absorbing Man, even when it's probably influenced by it, and the Birth of Venus (Venus of Milo is that sculpture with the missing arms) is probably one of the most copied pictures ever, if you leave out the Last Supper and Mona Lisa, but the redneck is almost completely traced :/

I'd say copying art of other people, even in parts, is not accpetable, using the same poses would be okay imo... i mean, there are just so many poses things can take and look good still...
But blatant copies from a drawing of somebody else are definitely unacceptable, even when it's 'just' parts of other people's artwork

apart from that: I found two ninjas-guys that look a bit alike, too...
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=1677
http://th08.deviantart.net/fs7/300W/i/2005/180/d/b/Ninja_by_hamex.jpg

Edited May 16, 2010 by Burns

[Kyphis the Bard]

I'd suggest Sir Kamil list his "Influences" for each avatar as soon as he can, as it will both save everyone time and reduce the risk of a severe punishment.

Ignorance that something may be wrong is one thing, but when a topic like this turns up suggesting what you did may be wrong, it's time to co-operate fully. Lack of response is often VERY incriminating.

I'd hope that, since Sir Kamil is in fact a good artist, this will serve as clarification and that he won't make possible mistakes like this in the future.

[Harion]

i think it should be the duty of the artisan's guild to screen these avatars so Mur's time doesn't have to be taken up with this crap
artists should be artists, not copiers. have some dignity at least!
it's shameful enough that you're copying the work of others
but to accept payment for it and claim it as your own is just unacceptable!
i remember Mur saying that successive punishments for things like this would be heavier (than what Fenrir got)

remember that it's just not you that is going to be affected, but MD as well
always remember the golden rule of copyright works
public domain = copy, use freely as you like
remember that copyright exists the moment a work is created (even if it hasn't been registered with the copyright office)
copycat artists are especially easy to find out so ownership of artworks can be easily proved
you see, even if you can steal others' work, you still can't steal originality

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Harion' date='17 May 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1274052210' post='59893']
i think it should be the duty of the artisan's guild to screen these avatars so Mur's time doesn't have to be taken up with this crap
artists should be artists, not copiers. have some dignity at least!
[/quote]
Artisan Guild was dissolved months ago, sorry.

[Harion]

then that's an even sadder story

a better way of checking should be established then
the community should be enlisted for help
all submitted artworks should be published here in forums before getting approved
a larger group of ppl will make it more possible to screen better than a few ppl could

[phantasm]

i think there are multiple issues here. One obviously being the previous topic of
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6947-custom-avatar-shop/
where his drawings were already seen as questionable.

Combined with this post it does seem very damaging to Kamil. Having him be such a new player has worked in his favor so far. Had this been someone who is already disliked and known for shady behavior, such as fenrir, there would have been a man hunt on the loose. I would say even if Sir Kamil does provide a statement, I doubt it would have the credibility to back up such claims that SS has brought against him. As Burns said it's one thing to create a drawing style LIKE other artists, it's another to actually copy drawings of work done by others and change small bits of it to make it seem original.

The redneck drawing is by far the most incriminating piece, since the faces are the exact same. Over all though, they all show too many signs of likeness to be considered anything of original.

[Darigan]

Hmmmm anyone happened to find an image relating to the dragon he drew for me or was that an original piece?

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

Your dragon is from this tutorial I believe:

[url="http://www.dragoart.com/tuts/2343/1/1/how-to-make-a-dragon.htm"]How to draw a dragon[/url]

On the fence on this one, on the one hand its a tutorial, on the other hand that's a training tool and what if all of us submitted the same avatar due to handing in direct tutorial based work rather than adapting it to our own versions.

On the other stuff, Venus is so akin to its original it looks traced, and should copies of famous artworks be avatars? Remember the Freddie and Jason debarcle? Copying positioning, of course, there are millions of images with the same lines and positioning - that really shouldn't be in question, but these images are 90% the same as their originals it seems, inc the ninja. Kamil already said he is influenced by comics, old marvel comics have black and white versions of the absorbing man just like that one, but proving that's a copy without the exact comic in question is nigh on impossible, there is no doubt in my mind however that it looks taken from one.

If these are freehand drawings then they are great as a way of learning, but being submitted as avatars seems wrong to me, and eventually if we keep getting stuff like this I assume players will no longer be allowed to submit avys, which would be rubbish.

Z

[Harion]

famous artworks are part of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain"]public domain[/url] and as such MD cannot get in trouble even if they are used. but stealing works such as those from Marvel comics is a serious business. not only is their copyright up to date (copyright expires anywhere from 50-70 years depending on which country copyright was registered. work automatically goes to public domain if the owner does not renew copyright) but Marvel is a big company that means serious business. so tangle with them at your own risk.

1. if it is for personal use, comic book drawings from Marvel and elsewhere does not infringe on copyright. that's why you see drawings of superman, batman, etc which can be freely used in blogs and personal websites.
2. it becomes an issue when someone tries to make money off said artwork/drawing which is NOT THEIRS
3. and since MD sells its avatars... and even if it doesn't, it still uses artwork in a game which is a business (yes it is a business) so artwork must either be original or have permission from original owners to be used

well, if Kamil can get permission from Marvel, all is well and dandy and we can sleep better at nights.

[Sir_Kamil]

[quote]
If you haven't noticed, the artworks are all by Sir Kamil. From the way he commented in his other thread, I understood it that he fully claims that his pictures are all fully original, and not stolen from anywhere. To me this isn't acceptable, what are your thoughts?[/quote]

ofcourse they are not stolen, they may my inspiration, but still, i drawed them.

[Darigan]

[quote name='Sir_Kamil' date='17 May 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1274074591' post='59905']
ofcourse they are not stolen, they may my inspiration, but still, i drawed them.
[/quote]

The problem is Kamil that what you did is submit art avatars that had very little difference if any from your inspiration

[Chewett]

[quote name='Sir_Kamil' date='17 May 2010 - 06:36 AM' timestamp='1274074591' post='59905']
ofcourse they are not stolen, they may my inspiration, but still, i drawed them.
[/quote]

Inspiration? They are all traced!

in that respect yes they ARE copied since many of them have not had any changes done to them, Are you telling me you are getting credits for doing something like this? if so i will just download 20 or 30 artistic pieces, change them a little in photoshop and submit them...

Its not right to say you drew them when its clear that for most of them all the hard work has been done by the real artist...

[Sir_Kamil]

ok this discusion is closed to me. I took insipration from some pictures every one of us can inspire whith other pictures, its not forbidden

[Kyphis the Bard]

If you had taken inspiration then they would bear a small resemblance. These are largely IDENTICAL.

If you want to say the discussion is closed, hell that just means Muratus judges you on what we have seen already. Namely:
Complete lack of defense
Direct tracing of artworks that we have the originals for
The fact that you where directed to read through the previous topic related to this sort of thing (the Fenrir one), which you had said you had done after this was first brought up

If you where doing an arts course, submitting a single one of these pieces would be regarded as plagiarism, and you would be failed instantly.
You want this closed the way that stands? Be our guest, it certainly will NOT end well.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Just my two cents:

As someone that knows a bit about this subject, I can almost guarentee that none of those were hand drawn/traced. For instance, look at the venus, the shading is identical. In almost every aspect. What he did was use a pencil shading tool to make it look like it was hand drawn. It uses pencil strokes to replace the actual paint strokes.

Now, start apologizing Kamil. Or shall I do a few myself and show everyone here what you did with actual evidence?

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='17 May 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1274080124' post='59910']
Just my two cents:

As someone that knows a bit about this subject, I can almost guarentee that none of those were hand drawn/traced. For instance, look at the venus, the shading is identical. In almost every aspect. What he did was use a pencil shading tool to make it look like it was hand drawn. It uses pencil strokes to replace the actual paint strokes.

Now, start apologizing Kamil. Or shall I do a few myself and show everyone here what you did with actual evidence?
[/quote]
Actually Fenrir, the venus is without a doubt a tracing. Nothing about the image matches up perfectly, it all has tiny variation due to in-experience.

What you where looking at was the first image in that row, where Sir Kamil's work was super-imposed over the original. If you compare the second (the image submitted as the avatar) and the third (the original painting) you see clearly that nothing matches up perfectly, from the way the arm extend, the hair falls, the knees bend, or the hand rests.

[Muratus del Mur]

Since i insisted on the terrible things that will happen to you if you try to send copied art pretending it is yours, i will not check if the art is copied when i approve it because it is a waste of time. From time to time i place a temporary hold on your upload feature so you will stop before you send me a hi resolution scan. Of course anything can be forged, but sending something as original and "high resolution" it is punishable forgery and won't allow you later to say you had no clue it is not allowed to take art from others.

Of course i see when art is copied, you can't forge style and you mostly are not THAT good to alternate styles while being original. I worked with artists for years and i can tell. It is mostly a matter of proof, or innocent untill proven guilty so to say. I give you severa chances on the way to retreat and back off. I ask for scans, i warn you, i deny them repeatedly, but if you insist you want them approved because they are "original" ..fine, its your account afterall.

What bothers me badly is when people become angry that they are great artists and that i have something against them.

I've punished people after two years of a crime, there is no way someone will escape it, and since its me doing the punishing , hiding behind multiple accounts is not a real option.

I suggest you - all - , not just sir kamil, to take advantage of my few busy days and solve these things fast before i check them. The less time i will lose confiscating avatars, removing credits and deciding jail/ip ban , the better. Same way you found ways to get them approved same way you will find to revert this and minimize the pain so to say.

Sir kamil, if you still consider that is original art and those images are the one forged or curiously similar to yours, no problem, i can check it over and over, but the more i will check the worse it will get if i find out you stole them.

Same goes for others too and they know their names.

[b]To clarify.
tracing of an existing art or doing it in too similar shape and position means to copy. Taking the picture from an other place directly without drawing it yourself means stealing and it is the worst thing you can do.

Making a drawing after someone elses art, copying idea , not in same position , not traced, means insipring and will get the avy confiscated if you repeat it to much or if the art is to similar or to known (like cartoon characters).
[/b]

I can't believe I have to explain this.

[Pipstickz]

Small question, if the avatars are taken out, what happens to the silver the current owners payed for them? I'm pretty sure Kamil transferred a lot of it to Rhaegar, and for all we know, for this exact reason >>

[Muratus del Mur]

when an avy gets confiscated only the shop price gets restored. If the avy is in use you will get two credits, if it is in vault just one credit. I can't cover for any possible cost that person payed for an avy. If the buyer has any doubts regarding the originality of an art , they should not buy it in the first place.

Punishment is also decided depending on the level of damage someone cause by uploading avatars that later get confiscated.

It is the price for having more avatars in the shop and also allow you to upload your own.... i get to take them out anytime for any reason in case something goes wrong with them. Either like this or like it was before when i was the only one uploading commisioned avatars ..and you all remember how it was when the avatar gallery was always empty.

[Shadowseeker]

It happened as well with Ledah back then..I think what he got confiscated with his alt abuse was only bits, he bought some creatures using the silver he hoarded by using the 5 credit gift.

Still...I assume Rhaegar would pay the refunds?

[Pipstickz]

Well, he left, didn't he?

(Not quite sure because I've been away for a while)

Edited May 17, 2010 by Pipstickz

[Burns]

Well, items can be traced without much trouble these days...

I mean, irl, a thief can be sued to give back what he stole after the criminal court is done with him, we can apply that logic here, can't we?
And... taking money from a thief and making deals with it is [depending on circumstances] Fencing or Money Laundering, a crime in itself, personally, i'd surely go and prosecute them under criminal law, sooner or later all coins that went through Kamil would show up again, item-trace-logs work great, no problem there...
And after they are punished, i'd go and get my money back.

btw: Within the laws i know, you can avoid a trial for Fencing and Money Laundring by undoing the things you did, namely giving back the stolen goods to the people they rightfully belong to. Reading Mur's post, i think you have a few days before the 'trial' will be held, i'd do my best to have enough coins at hand so you can undo damages which might occur afterwards very very quickly... Once the inquisition is on your heels, there's no chance of active repentance anymore, just the chance of lowering the punishment a bit

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='17 May 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1274091962' post='59918']
Small question, if the avatars are taken out, what happens to the silver the current owners payed for them? I'm pretty sure Kamil transferred a lot of it to Rhaegar, and for all we know, for this exact reason >>
[/quote]



I have nothing to do with art planing nor with their creation, Kamil has a role of the trader of the Church, meaning he takes care of the Savelites shop and transfers percent of the profits to me.
He also chose to give all the profits from the avatars he made to the Savelite funds (not for my personal use), which I found very noble. He was also taking care of Blackthorn's avatars, not only his, when selling.


If an avy he made gets removed, I will pay back the silvers that got to me to the buyer.

I am very sorry to see this... I know nothing more about his works than you all folks. I just hope the things are lighter than they seem.

edit: kicking out unnecessary stuff
edit2: just saw Burn's post. I would also press charges on people who make slander on me.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Sir_Kamil]

ill make an annoucement regarding this topic claryfing it in 100% in 24 hours (cant now) and this will be settled