Several Things To Discuss About Mdscript Future Development

[Muratus del Mur]

Heat storage on items is not (or should not) be influence-able by the editor or the user of the script. The heat is taken automatically and once stored on the item its value can't be altered. only the amount taken can be decided by the editor. It drops 1 per second same as user heat. This could be a potential "currency" or "power" indicator for future functions that can alter user stats. Items could do damage, improve stats, heal, and more, based on the amount of heat stored on them. Any editor coult take advantage of the loaded heat on an item so maybe these functions should be available only on items (mdsi_ not mds_). What could be in your opinion the equivalents in heat for things like vitality (damage and heal) , permanent stats, and other things like that. Do you see any possible issue or abuse with this?

at some point mdsi_ functions will be separated from mds_ fucntions. mdsi_ will be used for items and wont be availabe on normal clickables. ...OR....maybe let them all available and hope people will use them in an appropriate way?

I consider heat (and by that briskness) a very important thing because it requires activity to raise. Please correct me if i am wrong and point out situations when this is not true or how they could be fixed.

these are multiple topics, i just put all of them here so you have a clue abotu the major things that concern me righ now about mdscript. As you can see mdscript is getting more and more advanced, and i have a lot more things in mind for it. feel free to split as needed and discuss each of the topics.

(im not lazy... if you wonder)

[Udgard]

Some opinions:
- mdsi should be eventually separated from mds. It's easier to prevent abuse than to hope people will do the right thing. Besides, if mdsi can be used on clickables items, it would defeat one of the purposes of having an inventory item usable.

-On heat and activity, a simple example of where this might not be very correct is with protectors. They can get max heat by doing nothing and will be able to empower items with heat to ridiculous amounts with ease. Besides, heat farming is not hard, GGG training for bursts, alt abuses with stacking tons of creatures to sacrifice (the item to be charged will be simply passed on between the alts - unless we put trading restrictions on items too... which is something I don't think we should have). I don't think permanent stats should ever be given via these heat items due to reasons above (not to mention those with high briskness will get ridiculous stat growth, making gaps in strength be even wider).

[Shadowseeker]

Or putting a cap on the useability of these stats.

I'd suggest (seeing as heat also runs out on these items and does not get stored) enabling certain triggers, possibly a spell with a low amount of casts. Still, anything with stats could possibly result in someone farming 100k heat just to get more stats that way.

However, giving a certain fixed amount..I suggest a percentage of like 25% can work. Like, you gain 5% for the first 4k heat, then 5% for every time you add (max heat orb amount) heat. Since it runs out, people will have to replenish it regularly if they want to use it.

Only issue is with the grinders who walk and gain like 1k per step. I suggest a higher briskness stat results in more heat required.

[Burns]

Definitely no to permanent stat gains.
In the ultimate result, that would mean that anybody who manages to get 9 WPs can increase his own stats, and the stats of anybody he likes, endlessly without any effort.

What i'd suggest are a few simple spells, like heal, freeze, guardianarmy or weaken, to be available in an item, with the normal heat cost and a new form of limitation, i'd think a max of 5 casts and a cast only possible when the item is charged with 2k heat or more.

I also have some other ideas:
-Strenghten, the opposite of weaken (as in, same syntax and same influenced stats, but positive effect)

-AntiToken: For a cost of 4k heat, it sets token-power of the target to 0 for... say... 8 minutes, as usual?

-AntiFreeze: Pretty obvious imo, when an item holds a lot of heat, it can unfreeze creatures. I'd think of that as a permanent ability, with a cost of 2k heat per unfrozen creature. This also leads to my next idea:

-Timelimit: An item that is charged with heat can be passed to somebody and returns to the old owner when the heat reaches 0. Obviously that shouldn't be the case for all items, but it could be a function the editor can put into it, probably even with a target the coder can change, not only 'the old owner'.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Burns' date='01 June 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1275377298' post='60748']
Definitely no to permanent stat gains.
In the ultimate result, that would mean that anybody who manages to get 9 WPs can increase his own stats, and the stats of anybody he likes, endlessly without any effort.
[/quote]

agreed

[quote name='Burns' date='01 June 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1275377298' post='60748']
What i'd suggest are a few simple spells, like heal, freeze, guardianarmy or weaken, to be available in an item, with the normal heat cost and a new form of limitation, i'd think a max of 5 casts and a cast only possible when the item is charged with 2k heat or more.
[/quote]

agreed, tho that would make protectors a bit obsolete (tho we already are in a way). For now, protector is based on helping others with heals (with few great abilities for combat but I don't see anyone using them - and it seems people get mad when they are used.). It's a great timing for me to ask for the MP6 spell levels to get fixed (accent on the heal spell, so a bit older players can be helped as well instead of only 3-day-old newbies, currently give-vitality spell >>>> protector heal spell. Considering that there are only few of mp6s in the realm and it is regarded as hard thing to do, it shouldn't be that of a disadvantage)


[quote name='Burns' date='01 June 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1275377298' post='60748']
-AntiToken: For a cost of 4k heat, it sets token-power of the target to 0 for... say... 8 minutes, as usual?
[/quote]

I like
tho no need for 4k. 300 heat as every spell, limited number of casts.

[quote name='Burns' date='01 June 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1275377298' post='60748']
-AntiFreeze: Pretty obvious imo, when an item holds a lot of heat, it can unfreeze creatures. I'd think of that as a permanent ability, with a cost of 2k heat per unfrozen creature. This also leads to my next idea:
[/quote]

I don't like. There are MUCH creatures with unfreezing aura, and it's overpowering in my opinion. Birds are of no use anymore.

[quote name='Burns' date='01 June 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1275377298' post='60748']
-Timelimit: An item that is charged with heat can be passed to somebody and returns to the old owner when the heat reaches 0. Obviously that shouldn't be the case for all items, but it could be a function the editor can put into it, probably even with a target the coder can change, not only 'the old owner'.
[/quote]

I like

[Chewett]

Permanent Stats - If someone has finally managed to get MDscript access, then already they have done enough hard work to attain the whoever many wishpoints to be able to buy it. If anyone wants to influence permanent stats, Then surely they should be allowed to? If they want to abuse the abilities they have worked hard for, then they will be punished accordingly. And once these people have had their access removed, and other such things then surely MDscript is safer as those who abused the script would be banned from it. But then again, it would depend who would be able to check all the logs, if Permanent stats were to be allowed it would need a log and some people looking over it, Say perhaps in the MDA Log room. But then i think perhaps the second point might be better, 

Tempory Stats - This will be similar to permanent stats, But much less abusable as it would only be tempory, Both stat + and - could be possible so if an item casts a spell it would reduce some stats, Something to balance out the item. But then again, if you had a lot of temporary stats it could be abused so again you would need some people to look after who uses these tempory stats.


separate functions - I think this will be needed to normal MDscript clickables are not used for things like an item would be. THis will mean that items are able to do more and more special things, which adds value to them.


heat - heat can be gained relatively easy, But then it still needs action to be gained. So i think that things like spells can be used like this, But i think any spells that would be cast from items should be weaker than the normal variants, and require more heat.

[Yrthilian]

Hmm well i dont agree with getting perm stat boost from heat in any way to be honest
this can be abused in many ways.

But i do have some suggestions

1. Use head to charge items as said before but i think this could be doen for armour.
For example the current armour give a % bonous to your defence and other stats. This could be
enhanced in some armour to give a bigger bonous useing the same count down as the heat counter
so say you put n 2k heat it gove you an extra bonous of say 10% the 2k heat starts counting down
and when it runs out the bonous is gone.

This could also be done with any item in game. That would be as far as i would go with stat boosts.
This could also be done for armour with sockets. or just on armour that have sockets. I dont know if there
was to be another idea for sockets I know i have ideas of what could be done for thoes but that s another matter.


I dont think any one should have the ablity to change people stats as they wish unless under very strict rules
as this could be abused in a bit way and can cause great damage in the long run. as has been mentioned
we would need a log to keep track of all changes done to a players stats. Will this put more strain on the servers?

[I am Bored]

and the other solution not yet suggested, that doesn't require restrictions on the scripting, is by giving people access to scripting items by trust, not by the wish shop (though those who have already gotten it in the wish shop should get to keep it) and if anyone abuses it they face the severe consequences, in addition to this you could also integrate these people into either the existing crafter's alliance, or a new alliance.

and the other solution not yet suggested, that doesn't require restrictions on the scripting, is by giving people access to scripting items by trust, not by the wish shop (though those who have already gotten it in the wish shop should get to keep it) and if anyone abuses it they face the severe consequences, in addition to this you could also integrate these people into either the existing crafter's alliance, or a new alliance.

[Kafuuka]

Separating: apart from being more work, there will always be some way to justify a certain function on both an item and on a clickable.
I refute the idea that items would lose value this way. The way I see it, scripts on clickies are primarily for quests and thus available to every player, regardless of who wrote it. Once an item is scripted and given to someone, only that person has access to it. Value is determined by supply and demand. Since supply is ridiculously larger for clickables than for items, there's no need to impose differences in demand (determined by what it can do) in order to make items more valuable than clickies.
Items also have limits imposed by common sense: if you had to assign attack and defense stats to a sword and a shield, usually you would give the sword more attack and the shield more defense. Of course you could bash with a shield and parry with a sword, everything is justifiable, but a sword would be more efficient for attacking nonetheless. Clickies have similar limits: if your quest is about darkness, giving people extra syntropy principle points as a reward is not the obvious choice. Once again I see no need to impose code restrictions to enforce a difference, when the common interpretation of how something should be used will do the job.

Abuse: there is a limit to how often one player can give a WP to another player. Similarly there can be made restrictions to how often one script can give a permanent stat boost to a certain player. It could be limited in frequency, in quantity, in distribution (quantity towards player X versus total quantity given), by type... The only problem is if it is per script instead of per editor. Duplicating scripts can't be that hard, and some people might be restricted if it is by editor. eg. Cutler's puzzle arcade has been online at the same time his astral plane was, if he wanted both to be rewarded with, say +10 luck, and a newbie would finish both quests at roughly the same time, they could be flagged as 'too frequently receiving boons from Cutler'.

[I am Bored]

but items are more valuable than clickables, it takes much more wp's to edit items than it does for clickables, plus, i am only suggesting restricting editing of items, not of clickables, though yes there should be restrictions even then on stat boosts, though there should be ways that people like cutler (who as it is won't even sell the script of the astral plane for over 400 silver (trust me i have tried)) who mur can trust not to give to big a stat boost, and who can do it without restriction, but since this should be regulated internally via md's server, it won't be possible for someone, who hasn't been granted this ability by mur, to just add a script that would do the same thing.

[Fyrd Argentus]

Seems to me that a creator of an item should have to [b][i]lose [/i][/b]stats that they transfer to the item. The user of the item must then pay heat every time they access those stats while they reside on the item. Then, if the stats are ever transfered from the item to user, the item would then lose those stats.

In short, there should be a law of conservation of stats.

This begs the question of whether it should be [b][i]allowed [/i][/b]to essentially transfer stats between players. There should be at the very least a loss function on efficiency of transfer at each step. It would be really harsh to make it percentage basis...

Edited July 19, 2010 by Fyrd Argentus

[Kafuuka]

That's probably the easiest way to prevent abuse, yet what about items created to be a reward for winning a quest? So far I've spent two WPs, one to get a Q doc, one to get clicky grade 4. If I'd want to make an item for a reward and put a script on it myself, i'd have to spend two more (and some to get to the 8 spent points requirement.) I think it's hard enough on people who want to make difficult yet doable and interesting quests and get a nice reward from them. (Being hard doesn't stop me from doing it, it's just that I'd rather not get more obstacles just because it could be abused... there will always be loopholes and imo there already are questionable quests and other troubles out there.)