Killing In The Name Of......?

[Aysun]

[quote name='Chewett' date='30 June 2010 - 08:39 AM' timestamp='1277908758' post='63040']
if you refere to CTC logs and such, anyone can view these.

If you refere to Pulling chat logs from a location, That was givent to her and others by Mur. If you say that everyone who was given X or Y by Mur is "higer up" or "special" then it seems like most of mp5 is special since prettymuch all the vets have recieved some sort of power, spell or creature from mur.
[/quote]

*sigh* I'm not trying to pull straws here, I'm trying to make a point. If you'd rather pull straws, that's fine, but I think the majority at least understand what I'm getting at.

[dst]

Actually, I don't get it.
I was talking about things that everyone can do in the game if they have the proper knowledge. It's not like I have special powers or something. It's not something that was given to me because my name is dst.

I am talking about mean stuff that can be done using game mechanics. My question is: where do we stop? Or...do we stop?

[Aysun]

[quote name='dst' date='30 June 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1277912234' post='63042']
Actually, I don't get it.
I was talking about things that everyone can do in the game if they have the proper knowledge. It's not like I have special powers or something. It's not something that was given to me because my name is dst.

I am talking about mean stuff that can be done using game mechanics. My question is: where do we stop? Or...do we stop?
[/quote]

Ahh, philosophical indeed. Perhaps everything has a time and a place...

[dst]

That is the whole point:when is the time? where is the place?
Since we already started on this path at least we can try and define some guidelines. Of course there will always be people like me for example who will bend/break/jump over the rules. But the good majority will respect them.



ps: in case it's needed we can split the topic.

[Aysun]

[quote name='dst' date='30 June 2010 - 09:50 AM' timestamp='1277913015' post='63044']
That is the whole point:when is the time? where is the place?
Since we already started on this path at least we can try and define some guidelines. Of course there will always be people like me for example who will bend/break/jump over the rules. But the good majority will respect them.



ps: in case it's needed we can split the topic.
[/quote]


Ah, no, that's not been it, you're right. Sorry, I shouldn't've tried to respond to you just then. Plum wine+logic=no logic. Let me think this out (as it's 1am for me) as perhaps we're on to something here. What is allowable and what is going too far? There is nothing to define otherwise as no occasion has presented itself as a means to amend the rules so there's a very large gray area.

Should polite decorum be followed? Or should it be up to 'any means necessary'? In this case, it seems that whoever is officially dead is automatically brought back to life by the system after a set amount of time so therefore no real harm done (again, please correct me if I'm wrong!). Even so, some people still have a problem with this. I suppose the problem lies in personal preference. Some people feel violated by death, and some people think death and their subsequent revival are apart of the game. Death is an element of MD since it is the main focus of Necrovion, yet there is still resistance.....there's certainly a lot to work with there and many paths to take as far as opinion goes!

Edited June 30, 2010 by Aysun

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Aysun' date='30 June 2010 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1277900763' post='63023']
Magic Duel is not an exceptionally dark place. Although Mur claims that one of the keys to MD is balance, I would beg to argue that light certainly trumps dark here. Part of the reason for this, I think, is the great amount of people who feel able to step outside of the game world and shout unfair when something happens that they don't like. There are more daisies and sunshine and so a majority don't seem to like rolling with the occasional punch when it comes. That these punches [i]are[/i] occasional no doubt means that they will be more headline news here compared to other games where killing and revival are quite common.[/quote]
Most people play a neutral or a good aligned character, hence there is an imbalance towards light. It is tricky to play an evil character for several reasons. Everybody can be an annoying person, but a likable evil person? Furthermore even this time the killed character got revived. Doing evil deeds isn't that simple if your victims are certain to find out and come back to haunt you.

[quote]Since someone brought up also that there should've been more role play to it[/quote]
If you read the reasons why Mya was chosen to be killed... they first decided who to murder and then sought for a reason why the culprit would want to do it. That is meta gaming. Granted, a little meta gaming might be necessary to prevent stagnation, yet the main question of this thread is what is acceptable and what kind of precedent do we want to set? Should even a saint be allowed to murder just because it makes things interesting?

[quote]how much more RP can you get than using an actual, tangible game item? Also, unless you use the blue text to *ties up <person> and gags them so that they cannot move* you'll be spending all day with your foe going *attempts to tie up <person>* and you responding with *struggles free* back and forth and back and forth because without some amount of 'unfairness' brought on by absolute moves, someone will always manage to use a deus ex machina to escape in some fashion, thus getting no one anywhere and that is not productive to the story or to RP.[/quote]
If you're going to rely on mechanics, you can't do much. The creature battles only allow you to KO somebody, you cannot loot their corpse. People only stay dead for a few weeks tops...
If you're relying on sparkly blue text, you'll have to obey self imposed restrictions. If you read someone's papers you can guess how much restrictions they placed upon their character. If there are none, you have the choice between ignoring that (awful) character, or to stay on their good side because they're too strong. Or you could go for the rule of coolness or even toss a coin to decide whether a grappling attempt on your character worked. Certainly if the other person is assuming using a two headed coin and you are not, you're bound to loose a toss eventually, but this is like all game theory problems: if both sides stay stubborn, everybody - including you - loses.

[Aysun]

[quote]Most people play a neutral or a good aligned character, hence there is an imbalance towards light. It is tricky to play an evil character for several reasons. Everybody can be an annoying person, but a likable evil person? Furthermore even this time the killed character got revived. Doing evil deeds isn't that simple if your victims are certain to find out and come back to haunt you.[/quote]

I think it's possible. And who said anything about killing for good? I don't think perma death is fun either. Coming back at the person who came at you and doing what you can to try and assure that it won't happen again (at least not by the same means as before) also adds an element of strategy to survival, I think. In this case, Mya's protectors wasted a perfectly good opportunity- that they won the right to carry out- to exact retribution and they pretty much did nothing. That was their choice- or perhaps their loss- but they still had that chance to make a come-back and they didn't really take it.

[quote]If you read the reasons why Mya was chosen to be killed... they first decided who to murder and then sought for a reason why the culprit would want to do it. That is meta gaming. Granted, a little meta gaming might be necessary to prevent stagnation, yet the main question of this thread is what is acceptable and what kind of precedent do we want to set? Should even a saint be allowed to murder just because it makes things interesting?[/quote]

The way I understood it was that Darigan pissed somebody off (this someone being Pample), and a plan was formed to get back at him by killing Mya. That's not meta gaming, that's just premeditated murder and strategy. Meta gaming would be asking permission of the victim to kill them outside of MD, as 'metagaming' is defined as, "a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself. In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions." Nothing in this murder plot was external- it was all planned within MD, using MD items in the prescribed manner. Therefore, it cannot be considered metagaming, but all the suggestions made here in protest of, for example, temporarily killing someone in game *would* be considered metagaming. Therefore, it was all completely within game boundaries to do what was done.

Since it's all within game boundaries, it comes down, too, to a matter of morality. What is within the moral limits of each person to do a certain action? If we're to use the lands as an example of general morality, one could say that MB (through its light connection) and LR (through its nature connection) would be morally in favour of life compared to causing death. Necrovion, being a place of death, is more prone to cause death than to support life. The challenge of existing within a land in MD I would think would be how to accomplish one's own ends within the moral parameters of the place you've sworn loyalty to. It is within Necrovion's scope to use death as a means of furthering itself, but (just as an example) MB would not support this way. Therefore, MB must find a way to be just as effective as Necrovion but using their own, alternate means- this is how people can be set apart in what land they choose.

[quote]If you're going to rely on mechanics, you can't do much. The creature battles only allow you to KO somebody, you cannot loot their corpse. People only stay dead for a few weeks tops...
If you're relying on sparkly blue text, you'll have to obey self imposed restrictions. If you read someone's papers you can guess how much restrictions they placed upon their character. If there are none, you have the choice between ignoring that (awful) character, or to stay on their good side because they're too strong. Or you could go for the rule of coolness or even toss a coin to decide whether a grappling attempt on your character worked. Certainly if the other person is assuming using a two headed coin and you are not, you're bound to loose a toss eventually, but this is like all game theory problems: if both sides stay stubborn, everybody - including you - loses. [/quote]

Again, I think it would be silly for people to be able to be perma killed by another player. I would personally want them to come back eventually, as that's what constitutes a good fight. With regards to using peoples' character pages as a reference, since Ancient Lore is so frowned upon, I really don't understand how some people get away with creating fantastical histories for themselves as some sort of background of their time before MD. This is just my personal opinion, but to me life in MD seems to be this: oblivion, and then you enter MD. How you can be a goddess/fire demon dragon water half vampire sprite imp/thing before you come into being in MD is really beyond me since it just seems like another way of creating 'ancient lore' that isn't really there or relevant. So, as far as character background goes, I think considering their existence -solely- in MD is what should be taken into consideration and not any fairytale someone might attach to themselves.

So, in this case, you're right, blue texting your way into a dire situation can't really work. I think I'm really going to enjoy this new RP reality requirement, because it'll stop a lot of the super-magical powers stuff that people attach to their own form of ancient lore.


So in sum, another question could be 'what are the moralities of each land within MD?'. I think it's good that citizens of LR, who are lovers of nature and thus life, find Death handed to one of their own through Necrovion abhorrent. To me, it's supposed to work that way. But, I don't think people should tell the place of Death to not distribute Death on occasion just because they're uncomfortable with it- that doesn't make any sense to me. You are not a member of Necrovion so you don't have to deal out death, but you share a continent with Necrovion and therefore death, and as a consequence it's something you have to deal with. I just think that's all part of it. :/

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Aysun' date='01 July 2010 - 07:21 AM' timestamp='1277961692' post='63078']
And who said anything about killing for good?
[/quote]
Three people have alluded to it in this thread already. I personally don't think resurrection should be easy; look at how hard people worked to cure a wounded Tree yesterday. I've always considered MD a 'low magic' setting: magic exists but it doesn't grow on trees, readily available for everybody. You need to work hard to get a WP and get a spell which is very limited in duration and/or power. (magic in the sense of doing awesome supernatural feats, preferably while holding a staff or a wand and having lightning gathering around it)

[quote]
The way I understood it was that Darigan pissed somebody off (this someone being Pample), and a plan was formed to get back at him by killing Mya. That's not meta gaming, that's just premeditated murder and strategy. Meta gaming would be asking permission of the victim to kill them outside of MD, as 'metagaming' is defined as, "a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself. In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions." Nothing in this murder plot was external- it was all planned within MD, using MD items in the prescribed manner. Therefore, it cannot be considered metagaming, but all the suggestions made here in protest of, for example, temporarily killing someone in game *would* be considered metagaming. Therefore, it was all completely within game boundaries to do what was done.
[quote]
I was the one who chose Mya as the victim and I was the one who chose not to ask for her permission. She was the most interesting person to have killed; she is not boring and flat, she is well loved, a prominent member of Loreroot and grown up and strong enough to deal with something of this nature. I never assumed she would be ok with it, it just happened to work out that she was gracious enough to play along, and for that I do thank her.

I chose the moment on purpose, first because it was the wedding night and second, because it was close to the torch competition beginning. I knew she would be revived on the 8th, regardless of what happened. So, her death was never permanent and I told her what she had to do to come alive again.
[/quote][/quote]
The way I read that is deciding the victim first and coming up with a 'casus cruori' afterwards. Since it is for a quest, I do not have a problem with this method per se. However, if you claim it is good roleplay because it uses game mechanics, I will deny that. Good roleplay by definition requires sticking to your character concept. If being annoyed by a character was the motive, i think multiple murders should have occured; 't would've been more consistent that way.


[quote]
With regards to using peoples' character pages as a reference, since Ancient Lore is so frowned upon, I really don't understand how some people get away with creating fantastical histories for themselves as some sort of background of their time before MD. This is just my personal opinion, but to me life in MD seems to be this: oblivion, and then you enter MD. How you can be a goddess/fire demon dragon water half vampire sprite imp/thing before you come into being in MD is really beyond me since it just seems like another way of creating 'ancient lore' that isn't really there or relevant. So, as far as character background goes, I think considering their existence -solely- in MD is what should be taken into consideration and not any fairytale someone might attach to themselves.
[/quote]
I don't think restricting people to what races exist in MD would change much. It wouldn't restrict people to playing humans and someone playing a drachorn should then win every fight with a human character; at least that's what I think most people would bet on when pitting human vs drachorn. A character is also so much more than a race and a list of powers.
Afaik most characters are adults. Whether they grew up in MD, which is five years old, or in another realm, or just sprung to life as an adult (from a very tall cabbage, mayhaps a tomato plant?), you'll have to come up with some fiction. How does your adult cabbage know language? What did the wilderwind character do in it's childhood? Did it get kicked out of the nest so it could learn to fly? As for that matter, I never understood how people could be half demon, half dragon and half human... that's three halves! And it sounds biologically implausible and a painful pregnancy.