The four dimensional shape equivalent of sound

[Muratus del Mur]

Synesthesia is a something that makes you interpret some things with other senses. I consider its a "feature" not a "bug" because so far i had only to learn from it never to suffer. The association of colors with numbers you all had a look at it with the md dna questions. However there are lots and lots of other possible associations , depending on person.

It was not very clear for me with what sound gets interpreted because i ignored one little aspect. Now, thanks to the violin master Niccolo Paganini (1782 - 1840) i realised how the connection is made, at least in my head. Sound equals shapes... but just any shapes. Four dimensional shapes. I see them, i can form them, understand their past present and future, but i couldn't possible "stop" them to be carved or drawn. I don't know if it is the right way to call them but I am opening this topic to hear your opinion.

The work of this particular author exceed _everything_ I ever heard in music, also the other big masters, everyone. It is probably because of a subjective thing that i can "read" his sounds so clearly as if they were images. If anyone wishes to talk about an other author but still about sound synesthesia connections, please do.


So..subject:
Paganini's work and four dimensional shapes

Excited to hear your replies but ready to listen to the silence.

p.s topic pending to be moved in border research later

[Prince Marvolo]

When I hear music, I mostly "feel it" as in, accents, physical feeling, it's difficult to explain.
In addition to that, I 'see' a kind of curve that goes up or down with high or low notes, but that is probably because I see music as sheet music, through the eyes of a musician.
That is with monotone music (1 line music, like paganini)

With polyphone music it gets complexer, more curves, different feeling for each 'voice' with the accents...

I wonder if this makes any sense at all, for it's difficult to explain.
Sometimes music triggers landscapes, sometimes the plain sheet music.


It all depends on the music itself, classical music triggers more 'academic' feelings, while folk triggers landscape feelings

[Curiose]

Myself, I am a very visual person. I talk with my hands, I can't learn crap unless I see it. A lot of my writing, as I have been told, is a bit 'top heavy' in the sense that I smother it with words, with adjectives, adverbs, the sugar on top of blob of words. My wording is strange, because I am constantly trying to find ways to 'paint a story,' when all I have are words.

Being in band for six years, mainly the clarinet, I have come to associate it as something like dark chocolate. The sound is low, and rich, but delicious to the ears when played correctly. The higher notes are tart, and noticable but melt into that richness.

My feel is that the human brain has the ability to use Synesthesia, if one has the ability to think outside of the box, and normality. As of now, this is all that I can honestly say on the subject. I will think of more.

Actually, I just found something. When explaining things, I have the annoying ability to SEE how to explain something, but I always fail to explain using words. It's quite A troublesome ability.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Curiose

[Burns]

I've found an article I've used for music majors which was dealing with 'visualized music', maybe you'll like it.

Speaking for myself, I don't experience to see shapes when i listen to music, regardless of what kind.
The best i got was colors

[url="http://ezinearticles.com/?Shapes-of-Music---Visual-Art-and-Music&id=4906273"]Visual Art and Music[/url]

[Shadowseeker]

Have you ever considered special music to have special influences?

Why is the music used so often, like battle hymns, exactly like that? Lullabys, and such, why?

Some say that music used in the (wrong) correct way could increase the effects multiple times..rallying up, tiring them, making them go crazy, etc, much more.

Sirens sing in mythology to have people go mad, the question is, is that attainable by music alone?

Perhaps it all depends on how it is built. (Shapes as you call them.)

[b]
Edit: Oh and, the most interesting..Paganini, the one who was famed for possibly having entered a pact with the devil?[/b]

Edited January 7, 2011 by Shadowseeker

[Muratus del Mur]

my current theory is that there is one single form a message can exist in , a complex one. Our senses are adapted to reach that form from various side ways, but basically what you can say in music you can say in paintings, or write or anyhow else. It is a choice of what "channel" you pic to read that info.

I feel as i am reading entire tomes, i will need weeks, maybe even month to translate the meanings in my head, but i feel like LEARNING.. not music, i have no musical talent at all, but not sure what. its pure info in there.


[b]edit:
some interesting ones, but you need to listen to the entire thing otherwise passages wont make sense, dont skip to see whats all about, lose a few minuts for a good cause [/b]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQY6A3rLRY&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQY6A3rLRY&feature=related[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2DrCKi4Jbw&feature=BF&list=PL12445CB7CECABB2F&index=32"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2DrCKi4Jbw&feature=BF&list=PL12445CB7CECABB2F&index=32[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOiZlFh7Oxs&feature=BF&list=PL12445CB7CECABB2F&index=29"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOiZlFh7Oxs&feature=BF&list=PL12445CB7CECABB2F&index=29[/url]

Edited January 7, 2011 by Muratus del Mur

[Brulant]

Ah… Paganini is an exquisite visual composer. I've listened to him before, but that was before I became much more musically inclined.
I'm normally like Marvolo, when I listen to music I normally feel thoughts and emotions and can see it rising and ebbing more than it makes me visualize shapes and "landscapes" (as I call them in my head), only rarely do I get an actual sense of space and time that the music imparts to me, but Paganini is different.

When I listen to him, there's a definite story and landscape… like a play…

You get the sense that he's telling a single story that you're supposed to be focusing on, but there's a lot of side meanings and what not that sort of spiral out from the story

This one in particular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcY57nzzHkM&feature=autoplay&list=PL12445CB7CECABB2F&index=27&playnext=1

It seems to be happening in a city and we're looking for something, but, we keep getting distracted by the city around us before madly dashing off again.
As we run around, there are other stories that Paganini hints to, such as the people on the carriage, or the fountain in the square (both scenes from my head) but then he takes us away in our search again instead of exploring those
themes/places.

Edit: Oh, and I play the cello. The mellow cello if you prefer. I associate it with doves, circles, church bells, and melancholy. I can't tell you why for any of those, because I myself have only just begun to consider the "why".

That quite possibly makes no sense and may or may not actually be useful to anyone, but I thought I'd chip in.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Brulant

[Luke27]

Hearing Paganini's work is quite relaxing and thrilling at the same time. When I hear music, especially classical ones, I "see" the scenery. I feel like I am in the scene but I can't control what will happen next but I still feel a freeing sensation when listening to it.

Music, in my opinion, is a good outlet of emotion. If you want to relax then hear a song, if you want to vent out your frustrations sing it away and if you're alone and want to cry then just turn on the radio and feel that you're not alone. Music is part of our lives like anything in this world.

P.S.
I just noticed that this can be like rambling to some of you.
Sorry about that.
I can't seem to get the right words.

[Ravenstrider]

Well I'm afraid I couldn't find it in classical music... Maybe Bach's Prelude from Cello Suit 1... That one always makes me feel time flowing and I can almost feel the taste and shape of the music... (I never listened to classical music too much and I really don't know too much of it x.x)

There is a few modern songs that do it for me... Maybe Robbert Johnson... (another devil pact guy lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJeoYnmqbw&feature=related

This one made me the closest to synesthesia I've ever been...

Edit: No post can pass without some local patriotism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiBCeonLEQs

This one makes me feel the grinding of nails on soft flesh...

Music causes feelings and intuitive understanding which our mind then translates into something tangible which, depending on the music(subjective synesthetic effect of it? ) can cause the tangible thing almost as complex as the emotions... In your case a four dimensional shape...

On more than one occasion I had a strong musical piece making me move without me realizing it... I know that this will be censored, but the way you're body moves or arranges itself during love-making... An instinctive drive older than our species. It's hard to explain... It's not connected to the topic, but says a lot about the power of music.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[Sephirah Caelum]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1294436647' post='77062']
I've found an article I've used for music majors which was dealing with 'visualized music', maybe you'll like it.

Speaking for myself, I don't experience to see shapes when i listen to music, regardless of what kind.
The best i got was colors

[url="http://ezinearticles.com/?Shapes-of-Music---Visual-Art-and-Music&id=4906273"]Visual Art and Music[/url]
[/quote]

Burns, the writer of this article has a very good art work, have you seen?

[Atrumist]

Franz Liszt was known to have synesthesia, he saw colors there were others heard tones.

An anecdote. Liszt helped a lot of musicians to succeed in their musician career although most of his help was in money. He helped Ferdinand Chopin too. And Chopin was one of the best piano players then (and now).
Both of them had concert when it happened the lights to be turned off while someone was playing the piano very good and softly. The audience with no doubt judged that Chopin is playing. But when the lights were turned on, on the piano had been Liszt and he has said "Chopin can't play like Liszt, but Liszt can play like Chopin".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxfAmHeixA&feature=fvst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQehoxclID8&feature=channel

[Muratus del Mur]

That is extraordinary

yes indeed one can "cheat" in one art by seeing it in an other. For example someone could match colors and combine them to look nice together but in fact those are not colors but sounds, he just sees them as colors because of synesthesia.... i know that because i did it..sorry...DO..it.. very often, but not with sounds usualy.

I guess its on topic to mention that the poems i wrote are actualy words put on a melodic shape for me. The poem was there before the words, its musical shape I mean and the the words were fitted on that shape.

Same concept was planned for the Angien "bot" if any remembers what i am talking about.

I have a feeling that the uses of such a thing are of extraordinary power if educated. I also think they can be extended to unexpected areas..not at all just art.


very interesting.

p.s. i made some advancements with Paganini's music , no wonder since i listen to it since then day and night. It is like a language, one that says something without fixing it into words or facts, i cant explain better for now. Also some plays have a different personality behind them .. some of his best plays actually. If it was in "talking" I could say its his voice, but the speaking style of an other person. I need to read about his life more maybe i am just hearing him over the years as he seems much much older, calmer, more sad and stable at the same time in some plays, while in other he is almost as mysterious and restless as Mozart.

[Malaikat Maut]

Paganini is a fantastic composer and violinist. I've long been a fan of his works and particularly his 24 Caprices, which heavily influenced virtuoso guitarists such as Yngwie Malmsteen and his contemporaries.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_3ir8nSvv4&feature=related"]Yngwie's Vivace[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKD8c-WBMA"]Jason Becker plays Paganini's 5th Caprice[/url]

Something else that you may want to look into, Mur, is echolocation. Not exactly what you're talking about here with synesthesia, but also not so different. I've read that the skill can be trained and it has a great deal to do with turning sounds into spacial and geometric entities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation

[Sephirah Caelum]

[url="http://web.mit.edu/synesthesia/www/"]Link[/url]

[Muratus del Mur]

he he .. i love it when its called abiliy not disorder


[quote]"Equally important, however, is the idea that a creative person can also use his/her unique synesthetic abilities to make a living and bring significant contributions to the world. Such talents as utilized by artists and other creative individuals are highlighted within."[/quote]

[Sephirah Caelum]

The artist I met today, after read a magazine about technologies.

[url="http://www.janhenrikhansen.com/about/"]"The music becomes sculpture" (free translation)[/url]

[url="http://www.janhenrikhansen.com/joomla/media/071017_FFF_Book_Screen_WEB.pdf"]Onesense (pdf)[/url]

Reason of edit: adding 2nd link

Edited January 12, 2011 by Sephirah Caelum

[Kay Ingild]

I don't have any experience myself with synaesthesia, but I can't help but be curious…

If you have sound-shape synaesthesia and are listening to the exact same piece of music, do you experience the exact same shape each time? I am not talking about new performances of the same music, as those can be subtly different, but something like a recording, where the only thing changing over time is the listener. Have you ever experienced this four-dimensional shape as being slightly different - perhaps as you grow more familiar with the composer, or the piece, or the style of music? Or is the shape always identical, but you sometimes notice or focus on different aspects of it? Or is it even possible to remember or "pin down" the shape enough to notice if it is the same or different from before?

I hope that my questions make any kind of sense!

[Muratus del Mur]

when you watch a sculpture a second time, is it identical? Of course it is , you just discover more details and see things you might have ignored. With complex messages is even more so, but the basic structure is there always.

[Kay Ingild]

Thank you for the response

It does seem obvious, but I just wanted to rule out an alternative possibility: that only the *concepts* of shapes are being evoked, so the shape couldn't be carved or drawn because it never actually resolves as an object, just a series of shape-related concepts. As in, instead of "looking" at a sculpture of, say, a person, I thought you might be experiencing the concept of person-ness [edit: I mean "person-shaped-ness"]. But that does not seem to be the case

Edited March 19, 2011 by Kay Ingild

[Cat Schrodinger]

I'm interested that no one has mentioned use of psychedelics -- experience of strong temporary synethesia is a principle feature of LSD, in particular. Many would say it's the whole point :-)

I think this is a very interesting (and not too long) article about a project for inducing synethesia in order to assist people with sight limitations (without using LSD!), with an especially helpful list of scholarly references at the bottom: http://www.seeingwithsound.com/asynesth.htm