Balance - Combo Connection

[Burns]

As you might remember, i'm a big fan of balance. And a big opponent of being off balance to maximize personal gain on the back of newbies.

So, there i sit around, pondering what all big fighters have in common, and it strikes: VE and Combo!

All the big, evil fighting guys have a lot of VE and a lot of Combo, which they need for a multitude of things these days. Few of them value balance, because balance means that you can't hit on the weak targets. Therefore, i a new attempt to make balance attractive, i propose that combo boost gets directly connected to the balance of the user.

I'd imagine that connection as rather simple function that decreases the size of the combo boost for the unbalanced. Like, for example, Combo VE gets decreased by 1% for every win or loss that people have out of balance, with a minimum of 5%.
Or, a little rougher, combo VE gets reduced to 50% when out of the +/- 20 that currently mark the balance bonus, and to 5% when out of +/- 50.

This would almost only affect people who want to fight in highest class, and even those only when they are attacking. Most people don't have hundreds of thousands combo VE, and don't intend to go there any time soon.
And i think it would make enough of an incentive for the big fighter people of MP5+ to really want balance, because they just need their combo rits that often. Which in turn means that the people who are in balance and intend to stay there won't hit on weaklings anymore when give too much negative honor.

Thanks to Rendril, too, without your test i'd not be writing that... Even when i apparently didn't completely understand what you really did there <.<

[Chewett]

So, as an example, i find it incredibly hard to get back to "balance" even with my Ve and Combo helping me, I am slowly moving towards it, But its slow work. With such a change i would actually end up losing a lot, as combo's really help when certain people keep hitting you every 8 minutes or whatever and its hard to keep VE to be able to get vics.

[Fyrd Argentus]

And so those big guys offering easy wins to train off of are building up their losses - and they will stop doing that if they need balance? Hmmm....

[Nimrodel]

I'm 'for' this. Though I'd want the percentage to reduce. At least not a percentage of 50% for a difference of 20 wins from balance. Maybe an increment of 2% for every 20 wins/losses away from the 20-20 range with a max of 50%. That'd give the out of balance people an incentive to rise up slowly.

[Ravenstrider]

This is a rather bad idea...

Concept looks nice on paper, but here's a challenge for you: Try to keep balance out of an ally. I only know a couple of people who managed it and it takes a lot of work... and you can't idle, because it requires quite a bit of micro-managment...
So, you'd be cutting the amount of people in the park, which is already on it's low side.

The result of your plan would be: You can only train when you're in an ally and if you have a hell of a lot of VE... Balance gives +100% heat gain when you win, but doesn't give it when you loose... making a high VE a must when you're balanced.

Everybody will have to be balanced in order to do anything... And what stops somebody to get out of ally, get a lot of losses, attack everything on sight, get a bunch of +bonus honor, get balanced... (due to tokens this is fairly easy) and then drop XP back to 0 in a few attacks, rince and repeat.


You'd just be cripling new players with this and the only people who would gain something would be the balanced, high VE ally people that aren't too active... Wait... You have rather high VE, you're an ally leader and you're in perpetual balance, and you don't grind too much... Interesting.


In order to catch up with the vets, new people have to train... And in order for them to do that, they have to drop heat. And if they are weak, they won't be able to keep balance, so they won't be able to train, which would just make it more impossible for them to get anywhere close to vets.

And this is coming from a person who would actually benefit from this change... I'm having problems with getting losses anyway.




And another thing: Who needs combos when your burst drops 9m heat in one hit? Or 5m... or whatever... The only people who actually need combos are younger people who don't have over 500k VE.


Also: This will lead new people to cling to GGG type training again... And we really don't want that, do we now?

Edited May 22, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[xrieg]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306065407' post='84865']
(...) Few of them value balance, because balance means that you can't hit on the weak targets. Therefore, i a new attempt to make balance attractive, i propose that combo boost gets directly connected to the balance of the user.(...)[/quote]

I do not quite get your logic... I do not know about things in allies (I only know that its much easier to keep balanced). If you are not in alliance try to train being balanced - and with no super crits. It plain and simple not possible - game recognized unallied vets as weaklings and newbies who didn't manage to sink their balance low enough as ultra-killers (and consequently - they get hot welcome). It is honor that is the source od inbalance - and you offer a solution that would affect the outcome only (and I am sorry - I agree with Ravenstrider - do not affect you).
Your proposal alone is effectively just strenhtening allies. And as some ppl drop ally or do not join one to train more intensively (attack cooldown) major effect is even less fighting in ultimate fighting stage (and at the time Eon, MRAlyon etc are not active is is already negligible - I was very surprised when I got MP5). Moreover, I'm a noob but is seems most killer rits I encounter do not rely on combo all that much (angiens).
If you want alliance to be more attractive propose further shortening of cooldown time for allies.

Fix the balance vs honor; make it to require less micromanagement - and balance will be very atractive with current setup. Fix source not its outcome
1. 'strenght' should be dependent not only on win-losses difference but sum as well
2. balance bonus should also depend on difference and sum

EDIT:
I did try to keep balanced when I went MP4 - and gave up after 2 weeks. 5 wins/ losses off the balance and bonuses are tiny - and with a few training ppl such a precision is not practical. Especially with such a balance you are 95% of the time on receiving end that is even more difficult to manage

Edited May 22, 2011 by xrieg

[Burns]

Ad Ravenstrider:
I don't support idling anyways. I doubt that the real activity would be any lower when people with an actually bad balance can roam freely again, without people beating on them.

Getting so far out of balance that you can prey on really weak, and then back in to lose heat, wouldn't be half as attractive as staying in balance, i bet.

Losing heat is an issue of mass grinders, not the casual newbies. And newbies don't have any VE to use combo as heat losing method, ever. If they have that, they definitely go as vet in my definition.

And bursts are a whole lot harder to get when you can't attack everything you find, relying on those for heat loss won't get you too far.

ad xrieg:
I got and maintained balance in and out of alliance often enough with standard creatures, it's not hard. You play when you play, and log out when you don't, no problems at all.

Currently, almost all rituals do rely on combo. Either to burn with angiens, or to survive with normal damagers. Rituals without combo have become the rarest sight.

If you don't manage to keep balance, that's something you need to learn.

[Shadowseeker]

This doesn't work well unless the honor system gets fixed though- a forced balance means no honor from anyone, and the neg honor will soon force the fighters to drop lower again.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306086664' post='84883']
If you don't manage to keep balance, that's something you need to learn.
[/quote]

I find that comment rather unfair to make.

I understand how to get vic's i can make rituals to give them on around half of battles at MDP, And if i spend some time, mostly all rits there can have a victory from it, some way or another. But the problem is i dont fight all the time. The progress i make in a day, is easily reset if im just talking at MDP and around MD for a couple of days. Because im not a grinder, But i still want to be able to fight when i wish. I do other things in MD that try and get balanced.

What im saying, is that i know how to keep balance... But i just dont have the time currently, yet your "response" is that i need to learn... Thats just condescending.

[Pipstickz]

My rituals barely [u]rely[/u] on combo VE. There are probably MP4s who have higher VE than me, and I know there are some with higher stats than me. I still get by just fine, and in fact am balanced. Wasn't too hard, just took a long time.

[xrieg]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306086664' post='84883']
Ad Ravenstrider:
I don't support idling anyways. I doubt that the real activity would be any lower when people with an actually bad balance can roam freely again, without people beating on them.

Getting so far out of balance that you can prey on really weak, and then back in to lose heat, wouldn't be half as attractive as staying in balance, i bet.

Losing heat is an issue of mass grinders, not the casual newbies. And newbies don't have any VE to use combo as heat losing method, ever. If they have that, they definitely go as vet in my definition.

And bursts are a whole lot harder to get when you can't attack everything you find, relying on those for heat loss won't get you too far.

ad xrieg:
I got and maintained balance in and out of alliance often enough with standard creatures, it's not hard. You play when you play, and log out when you don't, no problems at all.

Currently, almost all rituals do rely on combo. Either to burn with angiens, or to survive with normal damagers. Rituals without combo have become the rarest sight.

If you don't manage to keep balance, that's something you need to learn.
[/quote]
1. _Everyone_ who is at MDP regularly must control their balance - or kill their crits or go into skilldagame. You do not seem to deny my statement that most of the time there is very little actual fighting in MD - and yet you explicitely promote an idea that would make any fight a campaign - and mass fighting as a set of duel during SG events... or more probably: current unbalanced will remain such just to fight the way they like - only their 'effective max ve' will go down
2. About every off depends on combo about every def on priests.
3. You repeat your argument about 'weak', while currently 'weak' are the strong and the change you advocate does nothing about it.
4. It seems to me that the only change you may bring is a bit more ppl allied - and those unallied would have to rely less on their combos.
5. Loosing heat is not a problem of serious grinders. With enough max ve any heat gathered with or without combo may be effectively lost. It's more a problem of a newbie with 100k- max ve who may easily accidentally (or not that accidentally) get massive heat.
6. You play when you play log out when you do not - means also less targets on MDP do plan fights
7. Finally - please define real activity...

[Ravenstrider]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306086664' post='84883']
Ad Ravenstrider:
I don't support idling anyways. I doubt that the real activity would be any lower when people with an actually bad balance can roam freely again, without people beating on them. [/quote]

With priests implemented, there are rarely any more people with bad balance. Most training comes from idlers... I don't have time to be on MD the whole day... I come at strange times, and most of the time the only people I can fight are idlers...

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306086664' post='84883']
Getting so far out of balance that you can prey on really weak, and then back in to lose heat, wouldn't be half as attractive as staying in balance, i bet.[/quote]
I agree, but bursts are easy to get... Eon can loose around 10m heat in one hit with a burst. (just an example)
[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306086664' post='84883']
Losing heat is an issue of mass grinders, not the casual newbies. And newbies don't have any VE to use combo as heat losing method, ever. If they have that, they definitely go as vet in my definition.[/quote]

It's not an issue of grinders, since they can get along fine without combos. The middle category (50k-100k VE) can't. As far as I know, combos are more effective for heat loss then any other method... No mather how much VE you have... I used them when I had 30k VE... Lost more than on regeneration rituals (which don't work now). Current xp loss rituals require high VE. Vets can get high VE without combos. Newbies can't.
[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1306086664' post='84883']
And bursts are a whole lot harder to get when you can't attack everything you find, relying on those for heat loss won't get you too far.
[/quote]
If you are out of balance, you can attack anything you find... You get honor for it, even. Grinders are going grind everything to dust... They have superior stats/creatures anyway... You'll just be making newbie life harder.

You push, they pull... You'll start seeing honor alts all over the place if this happens.



And no, only rare rituals rely on combo... High VE is dangerous... A couple of maxed priests and it backfires on you.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='xrieg' timestamp='1306097132' post='84897']
1. _Everyone_ who is at MDP regularly must control their balance - or kill their crits or go into skilldagame.
[/quote]
I'm there a lot right now raising my Aramours, and I have had to do none of that.
[quote name='xrieg' timestamp='1306097132' post='84897']
2. About every off depends on combo about every def on priests.
[/quote]
Not mine.


On another note (more ontopic), this idea actually has a lot of merit. The problem is, as has been stated, its not suitable for both alliance and non-alliance players.

But that's just it: Why should it?

From my experience, the Alliances where intended to have a very different combat style and targets than non-alliance. Loyalty, anyone? Or the lack of honour from (most) Alliance fights?
I see no reason that the Alliance combat system shouldn't be further developed, with different balance targets and rewards compared to non-alliance fighting.
Sure, yes, ideas based on that premise won't be of any use until a clearer difference is made between the two, but that's the same ask as getting the honour thing "fixed". One of the two main problems with Honour is it encourages people to stay out of balance. Other than that it has One real problem, and that's actually caused mostly by balance than anything else, anyway.

Think of alternatives... stop walking back into the wooden box of pre-concieved notions... learn something about adapting from the story mode...
Stop harping on the same lines, try something different and see if it works instead, since nothing has happened yet....

[lone wolf pup]

For mp4s this would be a good thing! It would encourage the stronger mp4s to stay out of balance as one of there main weaknesses is a high combo. Or atleast it is my weakness ^^