Bronzometh

And here I come again with the same example as given in previous post: what if someone makes 10 alts, each of them with the purpose of capping newbs? How would any of those 3 options help the newbs? And since those are alts with a set purpose, none of those penalties will matter. To cap newbs at MP3 doesn't really requires allot of VE. with low VE but multiple attacks, it is quite easy to cap a newb. it's not even necessary to use angiens. suicidal attack with crits that doesn't do any dmg, if attacker have a burst and if defender happens to have a life stealer in defense, the defender could get allot of personal experience, and even get caped. Of course, everyone will say (as some ppl already said), who would be that crazy to train 10 alts for the only purpose of caping newbs? I will answer with another question: who ever thought that February will do what he did? And I'll answer with another question: Do you think that every player in MD is perfectly sane, so that he won't do such atrocities? Besides, sanity is hard to define. And I'll answer with a last question: If I will get caped by someone (as Burns promised to all GGG training players, including me), what other reasons would I have to play this game, except for harming others, just as others harmed me? BTW, I do not consider myself perfectly sane. I guess everyone who reads my posts already noticed that I am not 100% mentally sane, maybe some ppl think I am 100% insane. Probably a psychiatric test implemented before joining this game should solve all the problems, but will rise a new issue: there will probably be very few ppl to pass the test, so, this game will have very few characters playing it.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283189923' post='67382'] How many times do I need to repeat this: mp3 is the TUTORIAL for god's sake! MP4 helps you to get deeper into the game. [u]MP5 is the mind power where you have to be in order to experience everything![/u] Also, creating a new GGG for mp4s only is not the solution. It's not even a solution. And what's worst is not that you and a bunch of other guys "train" separately (after all it's your business) but you lure new players into that "project" of yours. You think you can beat an mp5 by staying in mp4 and grind attack and defense? How wrong you are! You think that you can follow feruary's steps and grind ve and then beat an mp5? February can kill an mp5 only if he gets a burst. And he NEVER has his crits alive cause he is afraid of loses (that bs about "protecting" the noob is...bs). So stop the whining about what Mur wants to do and let the man do his job. Suggestions are good (moreover since he asked for them) but from suggesting things to the "My way is the way cause I know better" is a long waay. You do know that we have a saying in Romanian: When 1 person tells you you're drunk, you can ignore him. When 2 people say you're drunk you can still ignore them. But if 3 people tell you you're drunk then you go to sleep. [/quote] you can repeat as many times as you want. I will never believe it. You tell me I am wrong, but February proves that I am right. Indeed, currently he can only beat MP5 with burst, but when he will increase his VE (say, double it), he could defeat some MP5 even without a burst. I do not lure any player into my training group. Only few new players occasionally joins my group, because they ask for training, and I give them the possibility to train, AT THEIR REQUEST. But, as I said, they join occasionally, get the wins they need to lvl up a crit, and leave. I know you trace us. I bet you always seen the same 5-6 ppl gathered in the same place, and rarely seen anyone new. Probably training attack and defense is not the solution, but is the best thing I can do while waiting for my angiens to hatch and get them to max lvl, while increasing my VE and while waiting to get enough credits from voting, to get tokens, powerful crits and other stuff from MD shop. Anyway, thanks for advertising my "project".

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1283035424' post='67259'] stats cap is too hard restriction i am considering sac limlt and an admistrative item for pushing to next mp but with a low reuse rate no jail or punishment for february, no fixing of affected players (too hard to check all and be fair) cap count sound also good but i fear its complicated to do especially on defence keep telling your thought on that thnx [/quote] This was the last post of Mur. sac limit will only affect new players, whille some older players already have high vitality, enough to cap others using angiens. administrative item for pushing to next MP with low reuse rate? in case that someone will actually do a mass capping with all their alts, will be too late to use that item. cap count - same flaw: if it's set to 20, and a player have 10 alts - see the exemple from previous post. So, the alternatives that Mur curently considers are not good enough. I still think that changing the fighting system is the only solution. I am sure that Mur will do something. I have no doubt. But what he curently considers is not enough.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1283182680' post='67375'] It isn't a huge problem, because if someone were to do that en masse that player would get punished. I am one of those who could cap you. Do I do it? No. And I can cap you as well with you being outside of alliance btw, and I know you are an mp4. The thing you suggest isn#t even a solution, because no matter what newbies might still click attack..they dont know about exp and cap. So the defense rit would still cap them. And the code you suggest is altering the combat system so greatly, that it will most likely never get done. (It's rare for mur to code something big like this) Alas, this is about a case where it happened. It happened a few times, so we are talking about it now. Bronzometh..I advise you to think of it a bit more in future. [/quote] And what would stop others to do it? we are talking about 20 caped ppl here, by one character. Let's say that someone would be punished after caping 20 ppl. If that someone have 10 alts with some angiens, and he caps 20 players with each alt, imagine what would happen. Indeed, all his chars might be punished, but the dmg is done. Mur should think very carefully about this power that anyone can gain. The fact that you have it and don't use it is one thing, but the fact that anyone can have it is another thing, because someone might use it one day, if he/she chooses to play that role.

"There is no need of pop up singn, or flag, or any other indicator. The amount of vitality is more than enough to inform the attacker that the character he/she intends to attack is dangerous, and could cap him. New players just need to be informed about the risk, so that they can avoid it. But this would mean restricting the use of angiens in PvP attack rituals for MP3 and MP4 (except for contests). If this restriction could be coded (so that the system doesn't allow the use of angiens in attack rits, the rit that contains at least an angien will automatically be flagged as defense rit, and no defense rit could be used for attack - if that is possible to code), then the problem would be solved. However, this should not apply for alliance members and MP5, and this should not apply during contests." when referring to alliance members, I was talking about removing the restriction for fighting other alliance members, not for fighting non-alliance members. That is my solution. You know I could as well start capping allot of MP4, which definitely won't stand a chance if they will get to MP5. I could even destroy the game this way. Everybody could destroy the game if they want to. This is a huge problem.

it seems that allot of ppl (except Burns, of course) disagree the idea of giving to some ppl the power to lvl up players. Well, in case you haven't noticed, everybody can gain the power of caping ppl, and that was already proven by February. This is almost equal with the power to lvl up others (the only difference is that the caped player decides if he will lvl up or continue playing at the same MP lvl without gains, or restart with a new char). This power must be taken away. February not only that must not be punished. He should even be rewarded for proving the fact that the fighting system can give such power to everybody. This must be fixed asap. I presented the solution in a previous post.

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1283107322' post='67309'] Also, another thing that glitched your mind, i haven't ever intended to use means that might hurt anybody who doesn't deserve it. My attacks are unholy smart, not traps little newbies can fall into. If i try to cap, say, Bronzometh, Bronzometh gets capped. And all the people around Bronzometh don't even know i was there. When february wants to beat, say, dst, dst might be beaten. And 2-3 mp3 who are not aware of the threat get hit, too, and much more devasting than dst. [/quote] This is not an excuse. The fact that you and February and anyone could do that is the problem. That is a fighting system problem that must be solved. no sacrificing caps and stats caps or any other caps you could think of will ever solve this problem. The fighting system must be fixed so that NO ONE can harm other players by getting them to exp cap.

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1283084955' post='67290'] Exactly my point. Newbies don't need more than 5k VE, if at all. When they get to mp5, they can still get more if they feel like. [/quote] ppl will need to increase their vitality before getting to MP5 because at MP5 there already are allot of ppl that have high vitality. Same goes for stats. new players are forced to stay at lower MP lvls because they need VE and stats before advancing to MP5, because it will be allot harder for them to get the VE and stats at MP5 than MP4 (I don't know how they do that at MP3 - it seems to me that at MP4 is easyer to train than at MP3, and never understood why are some ppl training at MP3). Indeed, they can get VE at mp5 just as they can get it at MP4, but they will have to stay hidden for a long time, while at MP4 they can play the game while they gather VE. I also dislike what February did (talking about caping newbies), but let's not forget that Burns himself threttened the ppl training at GGG that he will cap them, and no one said that it is wrong. I don't understand how come Burns started this thread, since he intended to do the same thing. This time, he is indeed right, but a petition started by someone who intended to do the same thing gives me the reason to think that he have other hidden reasons to do it (like the need of new training dummies for MP5 vets). If this would have been started by any other player, I wouldn't have any suspicions, but from Burns.... Any stats and sac restriction will determine ppl to quit. they will soon be forced to get to MP5, and then they will realise that they have no chance. Without those restrictions, they are forced to stay at MP4 for a long time, but they will get to MP5 one day, and play the game. About february, maybe if someone will explain him the benefits of advancing to MP4, he might advence by his own will.

Sac limit is not a good idea, because it will be a great disadvantage for new players since they will have no chance to greatly improve their VE, while the old players will still have high amounts of VE. New players deserves to have the same rights that the old players had, otherwise their living will be much harder than it already is. Considering that one day a new player will get to MP5, the game will already be very hard for him/her just because of the age difference between them and the vets. And the new players that will join, in 2011 will have even harder playing than those who joined yesterday. And obviously, players that will join in 2012 will have even harder times. Setting such restrictions for them will make this game allot more harder, maybe even impossible (talking about the time when they will get to MP5, if they will). Stats cap is a bad idea because of the same reasons. Giving some players the ability to force others to advance in MP lvl is totally wrong, because those ppl could abuse that ability (and it's not fair). Restricting crits max lvl for MP3 doesn't sounds right. Mp3 alliance members would be disadvantaged. This will result in restricting MP3 to join alliances. Penalty for strong players that attack week players sounds reasonable, but it is impossible to apply, since that will greatly restrict the number of characters someone can attack (especially for the old MP5 players, that already complains that they have few targets, if that would apply to all MP lvls). A severe punishment for those who intentionally caps others would be better, and fair (however, they should not be punished if they try to win a competition). And such punishment should apply to MP4 as well (certainly, february could cap MP4 characters as well, when he gets to MP4). Anyway, setting a dangerous defense should not be punished, since it is the attackers responsability for his action. There is no need of pop up singn, or flag, or any other indicator. The amount of vitality is more than enough to inform the attacker that the character he/she intends to attack is dangerous, and could cap him. New players just need to be informed about the risk, so that they can avoid it. But this would mean restricting the use of angiens in PvP attack rituals for MP3 and MP4 (except for contests). If this restriction could be coded (so that the system doesn't allow the use of angiens in attack rits, the rit that contains at least an angien will automatically be flagged as defense rit, and no defense rit could be used for attack - if that is possible to code), then the problem would be solved. However, this should not apply for alliance members and MP5, and this should not apply during contests. If that can't be coded, then it will be impossible to prove that someone intentionally caped a character if the attacker activates a burst before the defender notices the attack. Something should be done so that the defender can see all the battle logs.

[quote name='Burns' date='05 August 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1281022689' post='65156'] You actually signed up to rules saying that things change, and your account can be damaged in the process, without warning and/or refund. Perpetual Alpha tells it all, doesn't it? [/quote] Indeed, allot of things changed since I signed up(and I am only 110 days old). But there was nothing major. Small changes here and there doesn't bother me. What you propose is a major change, and is very rigid. This will limit the strategy options allot, making the game uninteresting. MagicDuel is not something for anybody to master, but for everybody to experience. The changes you propose leaves nothing to experience for those who can't stay balanced. they won't be able to lvl up their crits, so, they won't be able to win against other players, but they will continue getting losses, and they will become even more unbalanced. Indeed, a penalty for 1K more losses than wins seems decent (however, since the penalty implementation was a major change, Mur should have given them some time to get enough wins wins). 1K more losses is a very HUGE unbalance. but giving a penalty for, let's say 200 more losses than wins is ridiculous. More than that, as I said, some ppl, such as myself, doesn't need the balance bonus, and want as little experience as possible. Of course, I could just stand on the edge of the balance, and get the minimum bonus. I will just need some more losses to get there, and then it wouldn't be very hard for me to stay there. But I am MP4. And I will get to MP5 one day. The more restrictions there will be, the more time I will have to spend at MP4. I am planing to stay at MP4 only about 3 years, but with the new restrictions you propose, I might have to stay at MP4 about 5 years (maybe 1 year to gather the losses I will need to stay balanced, and 1 year only to gather enough wins and losses, to expand my balance before advancing to MP5). This might seem allot to you, but I only play 2-3 hours daily (except for weekends, when I play a bit more), and my set strategy doesn't allow me to do much in the time I play (because I only fight idles that gives very little experience, and some actives that agree to set a non dmg defense for me). However, the first idea, with the expansion of the balance based on number of fights could increase activity, and stimulate ppl to stay more or less balanced because the more counted fights someone have, the more chances to be balanced they will have, and even if they don't get full reward, they will get something more than being unbalanced. eventually there will be a point where even 1K more losses will be in balance, so, the skill dmg would be avoided this way (of course, this will require allot of counted fights, and will still be very hard for the MP5, but theoretically it will be possible). Indeed, this is something that definitely should be implemented asap. But only this idea, and not the others.

[quote name='No one' date='04 August 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1280906190' post='65045'] How can you or any "player with voting access" would be credited with the right to vote when you have no idea on what it means. If you want to vote, vote a president. This is not a democracy it is a Murocracy. At this moment (with under 1 year of activity) I would suggest you to try to understand the game instead of changing it. Have fun and live well. [/quote] I don't remember saying that the ideas with most votes should be implemented. Of course Mur decides what changes will be done. I didn't even said that all the ideas should be considered. We could make a pool only with the solutions that Mur himself consider that might be good. And about changing the game, right at this time, not only that I don't try to change it, I actually try to keep it as it is now, by being against Burns idea. And about those ideas of removing honor and win/loss system, honor and win/loss system was here when I joined the game, and by choosing to play the game it means I accepted the mechanics. Everybody who chosen to play this game accepted them, and have no right to even say they should be removed. Actually, by playing this game, I accepted all the current rules and mechanics. Changing them is actually the thing that bothers me. Every player makes plans based on curent rulles and mechanics, and big changes will ruin their plans. And this will have really bad consequences on the game. Someone who made plans, and sees his plans ruined, will either quit, or start over whith anoter char, or adapt his plans to the new change and continue playing. The problem is that the game is constantly changing. And even the player that changed his plans several times, will eventually get bored of changing plans, and quit. And if that player quits, he will not invest money into the game anymore. The new players will not increase the total number of players, they will just replace those who quit at some point. That means the $ gains will at least not decrease. But maybe there will be a time when new players income will be less than those who quit. Then, the game will be sentenced to death. And this is not the only problem. Ppl will not recomend this game to others because of this instability. I wouldn't recomand this game to anyone at this moment, because if I do, and the person who plays it at my recomandation will waste time and money, and then quit because of the instability, will definately curse me. So, we must find solution of improving the game whithout changing the curent machanics too much. Burns idea changes the curent mechanics way too much. It is unacceptable for me, because I choose to play unbalanced for a purpose (I don't want the balance rewards, since I try to get as little personal exp as possible from fights).

@no one: Certainly, strong ppl are unbalanced because they have too many wins. But is easy for them to get balanced. They don't even need to do anything except staying idle and waiting to get the losses. But for those who are unbalanced because of the 1K more losses, it is allot more difficult, not only because they need to get 900 wins, and get no reward while doing that, but they will also get losses again because of strong players (Burns suggested that unbalanced ppl will not get a loss if they are killed in round 0, but when they become balanced again, things will change back to normal). Even the smartest player won't be able to stay balanced this way if he is weak, because as soon as it becomes balanced, he will be unbalanced again. @burns: indeed, ppl do cooperate instead of training on idles (and it actually works quite fine). But I remember that the anti-GGG gorillas were expecting a greater income of new ppl to MP5. I don't know if that actually happened. And even if it did, now I see you have another issue: ppl are hiding. So, the main problem was not solved. You still don't have enough training dummies. Then you come with another desperate solution (forcing ppl to stay balanced). And, as I said, this won't have the outcome you are hoping either, more than that, it might have the opposite result: ppl will have another fear of advancing to MP5: because it might be difficult for them to stay balanced at MP5, they will have another reason to stay at MP4, where staying balanced is easy for everybody (by cooperation). Luckily for us, you can't implement this rules. You need Mur to implement them, and you try to convince him that this is the best solution. I try to convince him that this is the worst solution. I do agree that something must be changed in this game. Why don't we just post ideas (maybe even make a contest with rewards for best ideas, so that more ppl are interested in thinking of solutions for the issues), and let the best solutions be selected in a democratic way: by voting. Everybody should have the right to express their opinions. I bet many ppl are afraid to even say a word in forum (either because they are afraid to say something that veterans won't like, or maybe they are afraid to say something because their mentor have other opinions, or maybe they don't like getting negative rating, and so on).

When I red the 1st post, I actually liked the idea of extending the balance with different percentages, and thought there will be more good ideas from Burns. But I was very disappointed after I red the whole post (and the next posts). I think that ppl don't care about the balance because it might be hard to keep it, and by the proposed extension (based on percentages), since it will be easier to stay more or less balanced after more hundreds fights, more ppl will try to stay balanced. If they can, of course, because those who already have 1K more losses than wins, will be out of balance for a long time, and if the balance will be so important that they won't be able to gain anything for the 800-900 wins they need to get balanced, not only they won't be interested, but this could have even worse effects on them. Just imagine yourself in their situation, where they need, let's say 900 wins to get balanced, and gain absolutely nothing from those 900 wins - would you actually try to get those wins (there would be allot of time spent in GGG, considering that if all your ideas will be implemented, they will get swords for non-dmg wins)? And let's say they will actually get the wins, and become balanced again, and then go out - they will get attacked by stronger players again, will become unbalanced again, and they will have to go to GGG to get rebalanced again. This will eventually become boring (only teh idea of playing just to be balanced seems boring), and MP5 will be in the same situation as it is now. And for the few time the weak players will be balanced, they will most likely use a single tree with 0% influence in defense, so that they don't loose to much, meaning the attacker won't get too much either. So, this is not a good solution. Indeed, extending the balance would be nice. But making the balance the only purpose of this game (and it will be the only purpose, since staying balance will be the only way to gain something) is quite ridiculous. It is good to give more reasons and make it easier for ppl to stay balanced, but is not good to force them. IMO, we must know the reason why MP5 weak players are hiding instead of playing, and try to get them out of sanctuary by removing the issues that makes them hide. If it is the skill dmg, then remove it. If it is the fact that is boring to be attacked all the time by veterans, then do something about that issue (I.e: extend the honor loss - let's say to 1 point per difference, and with no maximum limit - this way, if someone who is balanced (have 0 difference) attacks someone who have 1K more wins, the attacker get -1K honor. This will eventually make veterans to stop attacking weak players. Anyway. those are just some examples, which should not count. But you should consider every MP5 ideas, and any MP5 should say something about that (what they don't like, and how would they change the things they don't like). As I said in other post: give ppl a reason to do something, not force them. @Burst: you broke GGG by force. What have you solved by that? Not much I guess (exept for having the satisfaction that you actually did it). You found out that there are other issues at MP5 (more important than GGG, but you probably havent noticed them at that time, because you were blinded by the anti-GGG gorilas, and probably thought that indeed, GGG was the main reason for the MP5 issuesd), and your solution is to FORCE weak ppl to get out and fight ? I don't think you will solve anything this way. Ppl don't play this game because they are forced to do it. PPl play this game because they like it, but when they will be forced to play, they will just quit, because they won't like it anymore.

quote from Trophy Heads contest statistics: "any strategy is allowed" that being said, I guess there is no way to cheat, because everything is allowed. winning 1st place in a HC takes allot of training, collecting powerful crits, eventually token them. But it takes time to achieve that. Some ppl don't participate in this contest until they know they can win 1st place, because, since a character is allowed to get a prize only once, some ppl wants the 1st prize at any cost. So, most likely, there will always be a veteran to win 1st place in a HC, because that veteran did not participate in any HC, and he was waiting for the right moment. For MP4, it seems that it's Zleiphneir's turn to win 1st place. so, @ wolfs and others who might accuse, instead of accusing veterans for cheating, better get 2-4th place, which is not very hard (there will be no veteran competing for those places), or become a veteran yourself, and wait for your time to win 1st place.

well, I might have some ideas about how to improve and enforce MDP. Probably they are silly, maybe even illegal, but I will post them anyway: How to enforce: 1.those who repeatedly break the rules, should be posted on another signpost, so that everyone knows. whoever see them in MDP will be free to attack them, and the newbies could run away, until the danger is gone. 2. If a signpost is too much, then there could be a group of volunteers who should be informed who are the rules breakers, and kill them whenever they enter MDP (I recommend using alts against them as well, if this is not considered alt abuse). But the newbies won't know who the rules breakers are, so they won't know when to run away, in case there is no one around to kill the rules breakers. In both cases, some spells could help How to improve: There could be a combination between the old SG and the SG that Rhaegar wants (I guess someone already suggested this). newbies can ask for certain rits to other ppl, and try to defeat them. again, alts could be useful (probably newbies will ask for certain rits that old players can't make because they don't have the crits - probably they only have maxed, or tokened crits, and the newbies would like to see if they can defeat some lower lvl crits, but alts could have more types of crits of different lvls - if this won't be considered alt abuse). Mentors should also encourage their adepts to learn fighting, maybe even give them tasks, to defeat certain rits, and maybe even provide them the target (again, alts could be useful, since most mentors are probably MP5). And this can be done without changing MDP rules.