Bronzometh

And here I come again with the same example as given in previous post: what if someone makes 10 alts, each of them with the purpose of capping newbs? How would any of those 3 options help the newbs? And since those are alts with a set purpose, none of those penalties will matter. To cap newbs at MP3 doesn't really requires allot of VE. with low VE but multiple attacks, it is quite easy to cap a newb. it's not even necessary to use angiens. suicidal attack with crits that doesn't do any dmg, if attacker have a burst and if defender happens to have a life stealer in defense, the defender could get allot of personal experience, and even get caped. Of course, everyone will say (as some ppl already said), who would be that crazy to train 10 alts for the only purpose of caping newbs? I will answer with another question: who ever thought that February will do what he did? And I'll answer with another question: Do you think that every player in MD is perfectly sane, so that he won't do such atrocities? Besides, sanity is hard to define. And I'll answer with a last question: If I will get caped by someone (as Burns promised to all GGG training players, including me), what other reasons would I have to play this game, except for harming others, just as others harmed me? BTW, I do not consider myself perfectly sane. I guess everyone who reads my posts already noticed that I am not 100% mentally sane, maybe some ppl think I am 100% insane. Probably a psychiatric test implemented before joining this game should solve all the problems, but will rise a new issue: there will probably be very few ppl to pass the test, so, this game will have very few characters playing it.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1283189923' post='67382'] How many times do I need to repeat this: mp3 is the TUTORIAL for god's sake! MP4 helps you to get deeper into the game. [u]MP5 is the mind power where you have to be in order to experience everything![/u] Also, creating a new GGG for mp4s only is not the solution. It's not even a solution. And what's worst is not that you and a bunch of other guys "train" separately (after all it's your business) but you lure new players into that "project" of yours. You think you can beat an mp5 by staying in mp4 and grind attack and defense? How wrong you are! You think that you can follow feruary's steps and grind ve and then beat an mp5? February can kill an mp5 only if he gets a burst. And he NEVER has his crits alive cause he is afraid of loses (that bs about "protecting" the noob is...bs). So stop the whining about what Mur wants to do and let the man do his job. Suggestions are good (moreover since he asked for them) but from suggesting things to the "My way is the way cause I know better" is a long waay. You do know that we have a saying in Romanian: When 1 person tells you you're drunk, you can ignore him. When 2 people say you're drunk you can still ignore them. But if 3 people tell you you're drunk then you go to sleep. [/quote] you can repeat as many times as you want. I will never believe it. You tell me I am wrong, but February proves that I am right. Indeed, currently he can only beat MP5 with burst, but when he will increase his VE (say, double it), he could defeat some MP5 even without a burst. I do not lure any player into my training group. Only few new players occasionally joins my group, because they ask for training, and I give them the possibility to train, AT THEIR REQUEST. But, as I said, they join occasionally, get the wins they need to lvl up a crit, and leave. I know you trace us. I bet you always seen the same 5-6 ppl gathered in the same place, and rarely seen anyone new. Probably training attack and defense is not the solution, but is the best thing I can do while waiting for my angiens to hatch and get them to max lvl, while increasing my VE and while waiting to get enough credits from voting, to get tokens, powerful crits and other stuff from MD shop. Anyway, thanks for advertising my "project".

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1283035424' post='67259'] stats cap is too hard restriction i am considering sac limlt and an admistrative item for pushing to next mp but with a low reuse rate no jail or punishment for february, no fixing of affected players (too hard to check all and be fair) cap count sound also good but i fear its complicated to do especially on defence keep telling your thought on that thnx [/quote] This was the last post of Mur. sac limit will only affect new players, whille some older players already have high vitality, enough to cap others using angiens. administrative item for pushing to next MP with low reuse rate? in case that someone will actually do a mass capping with all their alts, will be too late to use that item. cap count - same flaw: if it's set to 20, and a player have 10 alts - see the exemple from previous post. So, the alternatives that Mur curently considers are not good enough. I still think that changing the fighting system is the only solution. I am sure that Mur will do something. I have no doubt. But what he curently considers is not enough.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1283182680' post='67375'] It isn't a huge problem, because if someone were to do that en masse that player would get punished. I am one of those who could cap you. Do I do it? No. And I can cap you as well with you being outside of alliance btw, and I know you are an mp4. The thing you suggest isn#t even a solution, because no matter what newbies might still click attack..they dont know about exp and cap. So the defense rit would still cap them. And the code you suggest is altering the combat system so greatly, that it will most likely never get done. (It's rare for mur to code something big like this) Alas, this is about a case where it happened. It happened a few times, so we are talking about it now. Bronzometh..I advise you to think of it a bit more in future. [/quote] And what would stop others to do it? we are talking about 20 caped ppl here, by one character. Let's say that someone would be punished after caping 20 ppl. If that someone have 10 alts with some angiens, and he caps 20 players with each alt, imagine what would happen. Indeed, all his chars might be punished, but the dmg is done. Mur should think very carefully about this power that anyone can gain. The fact that you have it and don't use it is one thing, but the fact that anyone can have it is another thing, because someone might use it one day, if he/she chooses to play that role.

"There is no need of pop up singn, or flag, or any other indicator. The amount of vitality is more than enough to inform the attacker that the character he/she intends to attack is dangerous, and could cap him. New players just need to be informed about the risk, so that they can avoid it. But this would mean restricting the use of angiens in PvP attack rituals for MP3 and MP4 (except for contests). If this restriction could be coded (so that the system doesn't allow the use of angiens in attack rits, the rit that contains at least an angien will automatically be flagged as defense rit, and no defense rit could be used for attack - if that is possible to code), then the problem would be solved. However, this should not apply for alliance members and MP5, and this should not apply during contests." when referring to alliance members, I was talking about removing the restriction for fighting other alliance members, not for fighting non-alliance members. That is my solution. You know I could as well start capping allot of MP4, which definitely won't stand a chance if they will get to MP5. I could even destroy the game this way. Everybody could destroy the game if they want to. This is a huge problem.

it seems that allot of ppl (except Burns, of course) disagree the idea of giving to some ppl the power to lvl up players. Well, in case you haven't noticed, everybody can gain the power of caping ppl, and that was already proven by February. This is almost equal with the power to lvl up others (the only difference is that the caped player decides if he will lvl up or continue playing at the same MP lvl without gains, or restart with a new char). This power must be taken away. February not only that must not be punished. He should even be rewarded for proving the fact that the fighting system can give such power to everybody. This must be fixed asap. I presented the solution in a previous post.

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1283107322' post='67309'] Also, another thing that glitched your mind, i haven't ever intended to use means that might hurt anybody who doesn't deserve it. My attacks are unholy smart, not traps little newbies can fall into. If i try to cap, say, Bronzometh, Bronzometh gets capped. And all the people around Bronzometh don't even know i was there. When february wants to beat, say, dst, dst might be beaten. And 2-3 mp3 who are not aware of the threat get hit, too, and much more devasting than dst. [/quote] This is not an excuse. The fact that you and February and anyone could do that is the problem. That is a fighting system problem that must be solved. no sacrificing caps and stats caps or any other caps you could think of will ever solve this problem. The fighting system must be fixed so that NO ONE can harm other players by getting them to exp cap.

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1283084955' post='67290'] Exactly my point. Newbies don't need more than 5k VE, if at all. When they get to mp5, they can still get more if they feel like. [/quote] ppl will need to increase their vitality before getting to MP5 because at MP5 there already are allot of ppl that have high vitality. Same goes for stats. new players are forced to stay at lower MP lvls because they need VE and stats before advancing to MP5, because it will be allot harder for them to get the VE and stats at MP5 than MP4 (I don't know how they do that at MP3 - it seems to me that at MP4 is easyer to train than at MP3, and never understood why are some ppl training at MP3). Indeed, they can get VE at mp5 just as they can get it at MP4, but they will have to stay hidden for a long time, while at MP4 they can play the game while they gather VE. I also dislike what February did (talking about caping newbies), but let's not forget that Burns himself threttened the ppl training at GGG that he will cap them, and no one said that it is wrong. I don't understand how come Burns started this thread, since he intended to do the same thing. This time, he is indeed right, but a petition started by someone who intended to do the same thing gives me the reason to think that he have other hidden reasons to do it (like the need of new training dummies for MP5 vets). If this would have been started by any other player, I wouldn't have any suspicions, but from Burns.... Any stats and sac restriction will determine ppl to quit. they will soon be forced to get to MP5, and then they will realise that they have no chance. Without those restrictions, they are forced to stay at MP4 for a long time, but they will get to MP5 one day, and play the game. About february, maybe if someone will explain him the benefits of advancing to MP4, he might advence by his own will.

Sac limit is not a good idea, because it will be a great disadvantage for new players since they will have no chance to greatly improve their VE, while the old players will still have high amounts of VE. New players deserves to have the same rights that the old players had, otherwise their living will be much harder than it already is. Considering that one day a new player will get to MP5, the game will already be very hard for him/her just because of the age difference between them and the vets. And the new players that will join, in 2011 will have even harder playing than those who joined yesterday. And obviously, players that will join in 2012 will have even harder times. Setting such restrictions for them will make this game allot more harder, maybe even impossible (talking about the time when they will get to MP5, if they will). Stats cap is a bad idea because of the same reasons. Giving some players the ability to force others to advance in MP lvl is totally wrong, because those ppl could abuse that ability (and it's not fair). Restricting crits max lvl for MP3 doesn't sounds right. Mp3 alliance members would be disadvantaged. This will result in restricting MP3 to join alliances. Penalty for strong players that attack week players sounds reasonable, but it is impossible to apply, since that will greatly restrict the number of characters someone can attack (especially for the old MP5 players, that already complains that they have few targets, if that would apply to all MP lvls). A severe punishment for those who intentionally caps others would be better, and fair (however, they should not be punished if they try to win a competition). And such punishment should apply to MP4 as well (certainly, february could cap MP4 characters as well, when he gets to MP4). Anyway, setting a dangerous defense should not be punished, since it is the attackers responsability for his action. There is no need of pop up singn, or flag, or any other indicator. The amount of vitality is more than enough to inform the attacker that the character he/she intends to attack is dangerous, and could cap him. New players just need to be informed about the risk, so that they can avoid it. But this would mean restricting the use of angiens in PvP attack rituals for MP3 and MP4 (except for contests). If this restriction could be coded (so that the system doesn't allow the use of angiens in attack rits, the rit that contains at least an angien will automatically be flagged as defense rit, and no defense rit could be used for attack - if that is possible to code), then the problem would be solved. However, this should not apply for alliance members and MP5, and this should not apply during contests. If that can't be coded, then it will be impossible to prove that someone intentionally caped a character if the attacker activates a burst before the defender notices the attack. Something should be done so that the defender can see all the battle logs.

[quote name='Burns' date='05 August 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1281022689' post='65156'] You actually signed up to rules saying that things change, and your account can be damaged in the process, without warning and/or refund. Perpetual Alpha tells it all, doesn't it? [/quote] Indeed, allot of things changed since I signed up(and I am only 110 days old). But there was nothing major. Small changes here and there doesn't bother me. What you propose is a major change, and is very rigid. This will limit the strategy options allot, making the game uninteresting. MagicDuel is not something for anybody to master, but for everybody to experience. The changes you propose leaves nothing to experience for those who can't stay balanced. they won't be able to lvl up their crits, so, they won't be able to win against other players, but they will continue getting losses, and they will become even more unbalanced. Indeed, a penalty for 1K more losses than wins seems decent (however, since the penalty implementation was a major change, Mur should have given them some time to get enough wins wins). 1K more losses is a very HUGE unbalance. but giving a penalty for, let's say 200 more losses than wins is ridiculous. More than that, as I said, some ppl, such as myself, doesn't need the balance bonus, and want as little experience as possible. Of course, I could just stand on the edge of the balance, and get the minimum bonus. I will just need some more losses to get there, and then it wouldn't be very hard for me to stay there. But I am MP4. And I will get to MP5 one day. The more restrictions there will be, the more time I will have to spend at MP4. I am planing to stay at MP4 only about 3 years, but with the new restrictions you propose, I might have to stay at MP4 about 5 years (maybe 1 year to gather the losses I will need to stay balanced, and 1 year only to gather enough wins and losses, to expand my balance before advancing to MP5). This might seem allot to you, but I only play 2-3 hours daily (except for weekends, when I play a bit more), and my set strategy doesn't allow me to do much in the time I play (because I only fight idles that gives very little experience, and some actives that agree to set a non dmg defense for me). However, the first idea, with the expansion of the balance based on number of fights could increase activity, and stimulate ppl to stay more or less balanced because the more counted fights someone have, the more chances to be balanced they will have, and even if they don't get full reward, they will get something more than being unbalanced. eventually there will be a point where even 1K more losses will be in balance, so, the skill dmg would be avoided this way (of course, this will require allot of counted fights, and will still be very hard for the MP5, but theoretically it will be possible). Indeed, this is something that definitely should be implemented asap. But only this idea, and not the others.

[quote name='No one' date='04 August 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1280906190' post='65045'] How can you or any "player with voting access" would be credited with the right to vote when you have no idea on what it means. If you want to vote, vote a president. This is not a democracy it is a Murocracy. At this moment (with under 1 year of activity) I would suggest you to try to understand the game instead of changing it. Have fun and live well. [/quote] I don't remember saying that the ideas with most votes should be implemented. Of course Mur decides what changes will be done. I didn't even said that all the ideas should be considered. We could make a pool only with the solutions that Mur himself consider that might be good. And about changing the game, right at this time, not only that I don't try to change it, I actually try to keep it as it is now, by being against Burns idea. And about those ideas of removing honor and win/loss system, honor and win/loss system was here when I joined the game, and by choosing to play the game it means I accepted the mechanics. Everybody who chosen to play this game accepted them, and have no right to even say they should be removed. Actually, by playing this game, I accepted all the current rules and mechanics. Changing them is actually the thing that bothers me. Every player makes plans based on curent rulles and mechanics, and big changes will ruin their plans. And this will have really bad consequences on the game. Someone who made plans, and sees his plans ruined, will either quit, or start over whith anoter char, or adapt his plans to the new change and continue playing. The problem is that the game is constantly changing. And even the player that changed his plans several times, will eventually get bored of changing plans, and quit. And if that player quits, he will not invest money into the game anymore. The new players will not increase the total number of players, they will just replace those who quit at some point. That means the $ gains will at least not decrease. But maybe there will be a time when new players income will be less than those who quit. Then, the game will be sentenced to death. And this is not the only problem. Ppl will not recomend this game to others because of this instability. I wouldn't recomand this game to anyone at this moment, because if I do, and the person who plays it at my recomandation will waste time and money, and then quit because of the instability, will definately curse me. So, we must find solution of improving the game whithout changing the curent machanics too much. Burns idea changes the curent mechanics way too much. It is unacceptable for me, because I choose to play unbalanced for a purpose (I don't want the balance rewards, since I try to get as little personal exp as possible from fights).

@no one: Certainly, strong ppl are unbalanced because they have too many wins. But is easy for them to get balanced. They don't even need to do anything except staying idle and waiting to get the losses. But for those who are unbalanced because of the 1K more losses, it is allot more difficult, not only because they need to get 900 wins, and get no reward while doing that, but they will also get losses again because of strong players (Burns suggested that unbalanced ppl will not get a loss if they are killed in round 0, but when they become balanced again, things will change back to normal). Even the smartest player won't be able to stay balanced this way if he is weak, because as soon as it becomes balanced, he will be unbalanced again. @burns: indeed, ppl do cooperate instead of training on idles (and it actually works quite fine). But I remember that the anti-GGG gorillas were expecting a greater income of new ppl to MP5. I don't know if that actually happened. And even if it did, now I see you have another issue: ppl are hiding. So, the main problem was not solved. You still don't have enough training dummies. Then you come with another desperate solution (forcing ppl to stay balanced). And, as I said, this won't have the outcome you are hoping either, more than that, it might have the opposite result: ppl will have another fear of advancing to MP5: because it might be difficult for them to stay balanced at MP5, they will have another reason to stay at MP4, where staying balanced is easy for everybody (by cooperation). Luckily for us, you can't implement this rules. You need Mur to implement them, and you try to convince him that this is the best solution. I try to convince him that this is the worst solution. I do agree that something must be changed in this game. Why don't we just post ideas (maybe even make a contest with rewards for best ideas, so that more ppl are interested in thinking of solutions for the issues), and let the best solutions be selected in a democratic way: by voting. Everybody should have the right to express their opinions. I bet many ppl are afraid to even say a word in forum (either because they are afraid to say something that veterans won't like, or maybe they are afraid to say something because their mentor have other opinions, or maybe they don't like getting negative rating, and so on).

When I red the 1st post, I actually liked the idea of extending the balance with different percentages, and thought there will be more good ideas from Burns. But I was very disappointed after I red the whole post (and the next posts). I think that ppl don't care about the balance because it might be hard to keep it, and by the proposed extension (based on percentages), since it will be easier to stay more or less balanced after more hundreds fights, more ppl will try to stay balanced. If they can, of course, because those who already have 1K more losses than wins, will be out of balance for a long time, and if the balance will be so important that they won't be able to gain anything for the 800-900 wins they need to get balanced, not only they won't be interested, but this could have even worse effects on them. Just imagine yourself in their situation, where they need, let's say 900 wins to get balanced, and gain absolutely nothing from those 900 wins - would you actually try to get those wins (there would be allot of time spent in GGG, considering that if all your ideas will be implemented, they will get swords for non-dmg wins)? And let's say they will actually get the wins, and become balanced again, and then go out - they will get attacked by stronger players again, will become unbalanced again, and they will have to go to GGG to get rebalanced again. This will eventually become boring (only teh idea of playing just to be balanced seems boring), and MP5 will be in the same situation as it is now. And for the few time the weak players will be balanced, they will most likely use a single tree with 0% influence in defense, so that they don't loose to much, meaning the attacker won't get too much either. So, this is not a good solution. Indeed, extending the balance would be nice. But making the balance the only purpose of this game (and it will be the only purpose, since staying balance will be the only way to gain something) is quite ridiculous. It is good to give more reasons and make it easier for ppl to stay balanced, but is not good to force them. IMO, we must know the reason why MP5 weak players are hiding instead of playing, and try to get them out of sanctuary by removing the issues that makes them hide. If it is the skill dmg, then remove it. If it is the fact that is boring to be attacked all the time by veterans, then do something about that issue (I.e: extend the honor loss - let's say to 1 point per difference, and with no maximum limit - this way, if someone who is balanced (have 0 difference) attacks someone who have 1K more wins, the attacker get -1K honor. This will eventually make veterans to stop attacking weak players. Anyway. those are just some examples, which should not count. But you should consider every MP5 ideas, and any MP5 should say something about that (what they don't like, and how would they change the things they don't like). As I said in other post: give ppl a reason to do something, not force them. @Burst: you broke GGG by force. What have you solved by that? Not much I guess (exept for having the satisfaction that you actually did it). You found out that there are other issues at MP5 (more important than GGG, but you probably havent noticed them at that time, because you were blinded by the anti-GGG gorilas, and probably thought that indeed, GGG was the main reason for the MP5 issuesd), and your solution is to FORCE weak ppl to get out and fight ? I don't think you will solve anything this way. Ppl don't play this game because they are forced to do it. PPl play this game because they like it, but when they will be forced to play, they will just quit, because they won't like it anymore.

quote from Trophy Heads contest statistics: "any strategy is allowed" that being said, I guess there is no way to cheat, because everything is allowed. winning 1st place in a HC takes allot of training, collecting powerful crits, eventually token them. But it takes time to achieve that. Some ppl don't participate in this contest until they know they can win 1st place, because, since a character is allowed to get a prize only once, some ppl wants the 1st prize at any cost. So, most likely, there will always be a veteran to win 1st place in a HC, because that veteran did not participate in any HC, and he was waiting for the right moment. For MP4, it seems that it's Zleiphneir's turn to win 1st place. so, @ wolfs and others who might accuse, instead of accusing veterans for cheating, better get 2-4th place, which is not very hard (there will be no veteran competing for those places), or become a veteran yourself, and wait for your time to win 1st place.

well, I might have some ideas about how to improve and enforce MDP. Probably they are silly, maybe even illegal, but I will post them anyway: How to enforce: 1.those who repeatedly break the rules, should be posted on another signpost, so that everyone knows. whoever see them in MDP will be free to attack them, and the newbies could run away, until the danger is gone. 2. If a signpost is too much, then there could be a group of volunteers who should be informed who are the rules breakers, and kill them whenever they enter MDP (I recommend using alts against them as well, if this is not considered alt abuse). But the newbies won't know who the rules breakers are, so they won't know when to run away, in case there is no one around to kill the rules breakers. In both cases, some spells could help How to improve: There could be a combination between the old SG and the SG that Rhaegar wants (I guess someone already suggested this). newbies can ask for certain rits to other ppl, and try to defeat them. again, alts could be useful (probably newbies will ask for certain rits that old players can't make because they don't have the crits - probably they only have maxed, or tokened crits, and the newbies would like to see if they can defeat some lower lvl crits, but alts could have more types of crits of different lvls - if this won't be considered alt abuse). Mentors should also encourage their adepts to learn fighting, maybe even give them tasks, to defeat certain rits, and maybe even provide them the target (again, alts could be useful, since most mentors are probably MP5). And this can be done without changing MDP rules.

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='10 July 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1278781614' post='63757'] In reply to the pm i received from bronzometh requesting my stand about this idea: It is alt abuse. what you do is to run this training ground in two locations instead of one. according to the decision on ggg to ban alts found participating in that training ground, this will apply on yours too. Only way to do it is to have two groups of people , one group willing to stay outside , one willing to do the attacks. However, this is almost doomed to be abused by using alts and not main accounts, so i am afraid it wont work. Its good you asked, it made it obvious that you do not realise this as an abuse, but it is. from a philosophical point of view, when someone wins something, someone else loses something. If you put up fske accounts to sustain the losses, that is abuse and law breaking almost in all aspects, from game rules to country laws. It is like making a loan at the bank on a fake name. [/quote] well, that being said, I have to give up this plan, and make a new one.

[quote name='Yoshi' date='10 July 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1278777637' post='63753'] Biggest thing is the honour, how are you going to have the alts get wins for the insane amount of losses they would gain? Flawed, but fixableish. [/quote] Indeed, this would be a big problem. Thanx for pointing it. but ppl who loose honor while training will be able to regain it by fighting ppl who gives positive honor. if they have allot more losses than wins, they will regain the honor quite fast. at mp4 is easier to get losses than wins (so, MP4 won't have to waste too much time with the ballance). besides, most ppl won't train on alts regularly. only when they need wins. so, they won't loose to much honor. And those who train stats doesn't need honor, since they don't need experience.

well, then let's wait and see if mur forbids us doing that or not.

You can have multiple accounts, to try out story, to experince new ways of play etc ..., however if you are detected that you are using them just to help one of your main accounts , all of them including the main will get banned. That's from rules and restrictions page. we are not helping our main accounts. I don't see any rule that's forbids doing this. And if what burns say it's true, then all we will have to do play the alts as well. anyway, it should be clearly stated how many minutes we should actively play per day or week, or month. or what percentage of our active playing we should play the alt. Otherwise, you can't determine if we actively play the alts. I think you just try to scare us.

I announce the community the proposal of a new sparring ground. But this time, it will be a sparring ground that no one will be able to destroy or change, as happened to GGG and MDP, because destroying it will require destroying all sanctuaries, or disabling the option to stay idle. However, I will need volunteers to help creating it. Here are the mechanics of the new sparring ground: 1. the volunteers will have to make an alt, and get it to the desired MP (so, will need volunteers to get alts to MP4, and some to keep their alts at MP3). 2. the volunteers will need to stay idle in front of a sanctuary with their alts when they don't play. when they go idle, they should have only 1 non-dmg crit alive (a bird would be the best, but a barren soul would be good enough until you can get a bird - the bird is better because it doesn't heal itself, so, there's no risk for the attacker to loose experience). The crit should have at least 50% influence (you can make no defensive rit, and let it go random, so, it will get 50% influence this way). If you don't intend to play with the alt, and use it only to support the sparring ground, you could sacrifice all the creatures except for the bird. It would be nice that the alts have more wins in the balance, so that trainees get positive honor 3. those who are training are going to stay in the sanctuary, and once every 8 minutes they can go out and attack the idle alts. the risk of being attacked in the several seconds while you are out for training is low. However, you should set a single crit rit with no influence for defense, just in case you get attacked in those several seconds. Rules: there are no rules. What can you get in this sparring ground 1. wins with little or no experience (indeed, GGG-style training is possible - that's why birds are better for the alts - will explain later how GGG-style training should work) 2. bursts - just in case you need to recover VE, and there is no healer available, or if you need extra VE for a big battle 3. experience - those who are going to train constantly, will often get bursts, and most of them would be willing to give the extra VE as experience to you 4. permanent stats - I can't tell how you get stats, since it would be a spoiler, but I guess is not a spoiler telling you can get stats, since that is mentioned in other topics. you will have to figure out yourself how you train stats. GGG-style training: it will work a bit different than the former GGG, becaue the birds or barren souls will not have full health, so, crits that are doing dmg to wounded can't be used. anyway, using any crit that does any type of dmg will bring little experience, so, if you are not close to exp cap, you can use whatever you want for training. And since there are no rulles, there are no rits to break. whoever comes and want to mess our training, will have no defensive rit to break, because whatever they do, the alt will always have the same bird with little vitality (and it should always regenerate little vitality every time it gets killed, since it will use 50% influence if it's random rit, and 50% of the regeneration skill will keap the bird alive). The gathering place I first have in mind is Winds Sanctuary. However, I guess I need Lifeline permission to set the SG there. I will anounce in this topic if I get it. If not, there is a fenths press near GOE, and I don't think I need anyone's permission to set the SG there. Whoever wants to help building this, just get an alt to MP4, or make one that will stay at MP3. However, if your main character is MP4, you should get the alt to MP4 as well. It is not hard. It took me 3 days to get one to MP4. You don't need to spend too much time meditating if you are going to use the alt only for this SG. if you plan to use it for other purposes as well, then you should meditate longer, and will take more time. You don't need to say anithing in this topic, either you support me, or not. If you support me, alot of ppl will hate you, so better not say anything. Just make the alt and follow the instructions, and don't tell anybody (you can tell me by PM). If you think that my proposal is bad for MD, or that it will destroy it, bla, bla, it doesn't worth to waste your time. I've red this stuff in other topics. There's no need to say the same thing here as we well. Or say it if you really want. I don't really care.

@ dst I didn't stay to much at MP3 with any of my char. But I have reasons to train at mp4. Even if MP4 is not meant for training, I found a good reason to train at MP4, and maybe others found it as well (and I mean the real reason, which I can't say, because it would be a huge spoiler). The real reason why you don't like ppl to train at MP4. If I would not know the real reason, I could just go to MP5 right now, and train at GGG there, since it is allowed for MP5. The real reason why you don't like ppl to train at MP4. If you want, I will tell you what I know through PM. And about the ways to force me to come to MP5, you got me wrong, since I was not talking about me, but was talking generally. Besides, I can play as many alts as I want at MP4, and eventually train one as much as I want. @ ravenstrider If you get to MP5, knowing all about fighting, and get there with, let's say 300 attack, power and defense, how would that knowledge help you to defeat someone who have 3K attack, power and defense (there might be PPl at MP4 who already have more than 3K stats - I've red in forums that someone have 10K attack) and about the tree with 50% vit, I can tell you that it won't give me any experience (if I will fight against that rit with a non dmg rit as well - actually, thats how training was at GGG, but you didn't have the time to train there, since you are not allowed to train there - only MP5 can use GGG)

soo, if I am too young to have opinions, then most of the MP3 and MP4 are too young as well. So,only MP5 and MP6 have the right to have an opinion? In other words, those who will be affected by the changes doesn't have the right to have an opinion. It's only those who won't be affected by the change that have the right to have an opinion. Even if I am too young, I know some things about the game. The training you want ppl to have in your SG will give them alot of unwanted personal experience. when I was younger, I was fighting the iddlers in marble dale park, I was fighting ppl which I found in other places (was looking for targets at willow shop, winds crossing, even GOE. sometimes I won, sometimes I lost, but I got to 2 millions personal experience, and still haven't trained an angien. Then, I decided to stop, because I realized that I am getting allot of experience for creatures that doesn't worth. I got enough experience and wins to get to max lvl alot of crits, and only needed to wait for them to get the age (I still need to wait for my elementals to get the age - not to mentione that I already trained more elementals than necessary, since I have 7 of them, and can only use 3). Anyway, when I got the necessary experience, whille waiting to get the age, I thought there is nothing else to do for my main character, and started to play alts. untill, one day, I discovered GGG, and found reasons to train my main character at GGG. Now, GGG is gone. Anyway, I still find reasons to play with my main character, for training creatures for sacrificing. But I don't want to get more experience than necessary. so, I can only train them properly by fighting ppl which gives low experience. I.E: to train a barren soul, I need 8K experience and 80 wins. So, I need to get 100 experience per win. Since there is no more GGG, I can't get 8K exp from 2-3 wins and then go get only wins. I have to find a way to get only 100 exp per win. Now I can do that, because there are the dead idlers, and I am protected by attacks. I am not afraid of being attacked and loose. I can set 2-3 non dmg rituals so that I don't get experience.I am afraid of being attacked, and gain unnecessary experience. Because if I am attacked by 2-3 players almost at the same time, I will loose my non dmg defenses, and then my attack ritual will be selected, and I can get alot of experience. So, in those circumstances, I can't train in your SG. Unless I set an angien as defense, so that if I will get experience, at least I will get it for a crit that I want to get exp for. But I don't think you would like to see angiens in your SG. All in all, I want to say that ppl need a place to train crits for sacrificing, not just to learn how to fight, and that some ppl don't want to get unnecessary experience. It is not a problem that you want to make a new SG. The problem is because you want to destroy the old SG. Winds sanctuary doesn't help. There are no idlers in front of the sanctuary. I don't use to ask ppl for easy wins. I rarely did. I rearely asked ppl for losses as well. Except the time I spent at GGG, all I got, I got by fair fighting against iddlers. And as I leraned to fight against iddlers, all newbies can leran to fight against iddlers as well. So, the current SG as it is, offers newbies a chance to learn, by fighting random rituals of the iddlers. So, if newbies can learn how to fight by fighting iddlers, why is it necessary to change the SG rulles? Eventually keap the SG as it is, and encourage ppl to not use angiens and drachs and other crits that you consider are too powerfull. Also, encourage ppl to stay idle at SG instead of logging out, by providing them healing so they can play when they get back. Ofcourse, some ppl such as myself can't stay iddle, because they don't want unnecessary experience. eventually, I could stay iddle with an alt. But ppl which need experience can stay iddle. At first, I didn't like the SG rulles, because I wanted to fight everybody. But when I got to 2 millions experience, I understood that the SG with it's rulles as they are now, is for the own good of the newbies. You only offer them a SG where they can get experience and learning how to fight. The current SG offers alot more than that, and by it's iddlers, it also offers experience and the chance to learn how to fight. It's only problem is that there are few iddlers. If you do not ensure me that there will still be an SG with old rulles after you make your new SG at marble dale park, then this means you don't give a damn about the newbies, but all you want is that they get to MP5 asap, so that the MP5 vets have new training dummies (everybody knows that this was the reason why MP3 and MP4 are not allowed to GGG anymore, and destroying another training place at a short time after the GGG change makes me think that the changes you want to do are realted to the failure of those who changed GGG - it is a failure for them, since even though MP3 and MP4 are not alowed there anymore, they can still train in SG, and even if they are getting experience, they can manage how many experience they get, so that they don't get more than necessary, and I guess they asked you to ensure their success - I guess Burns is very dissapointed seing I am not an MP5 yet, and I am training on idlers at SG). So, pls don't try to full us. Say it lowd and clear: I WANT ALL NEWBS TO GET TO MP5 ASAP, BECAUSE MY FRIENDS NEEDS NEW TRAINING DUMMIES!!!

there is no need for someone to administrate sparing ground and enforce the rules (talking about current sparing ground), because most ppl follow the rules. Those who sometimes breaks them are newbies who didn't read the signpost (I broke the rules just first time I was in marble dale park as well, because I didn't know there are such rules, and didn't use to read signposts). If necessary, I can enforce the rules. at least for MP4. I don't have spells, but I have angien eggs (my first angien will hatch in 10 days). Indeed, there were 4-5 ppl who attacked me while I was not idle. but I guess it was a mistake, because they only did it once, and not broke the rules constantly. I guess there would be an MP3 veteran available to enforce the rules for MP3 as well. if you really want marble dale park to be the place of new training style, then is fine as long as there will still be a place where ppl can train by the old rules (protection for the actives). It is better that players, after they fight in the new SG, and are left with no vitality, to go to another place where they are protected, and to get some wins to get a burst, then continue training in the new SG. Otherwise, if they don't get a healing spell, they need to go to a sanctuary. Or maybe ppl will need to balance their wins or losses after getting too many wins or losses in the new SG (actually, they will mainly need wins, because they could get losses in the new SG).I don't think there is any spell to help them get the balance. And the other place with the old rules should be close to marble dale park, so that ppl don't have to travel too much (they won't have too many APs left after training).

I just have 1 question: Why don't you do that training ground somewhere else, and leave marble dale as it is? There are sooo many places where it could be done. The closer it would be to marble dale park, the better (players could go from a place to another, depending on training needs, without using to many APs). I am concerned about the fact that players will have no more protection.

[quote name='Bronzometh' date='27 June 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1277665671' post='62782'] If you want to destroy GGG, I would suggest to reset the game first, then make all MP not able to loose personal experience (so that MP5 veterans will be forced to move to MP6, and so on). Protect the new players before destroying their only hope. Or you will have no more new players that will play for more than 2 months. [/quote] This is from my first post. Someone asked me for solution. I suggested the solution in my first post. Resetting the game would be too much. I admit this is not a good solution. but making all MP to not be able to loose personal experience, would be a good solution. some ppl say that MP4 newbies will be scared by seeing and MP4 with 10K attack. maybe they will, but they will soon realize they have no reason to be scared, since that MP4 with 10K attack will not harm them. And if they didn't come to GGG, they didn't even notice him. More than that, that MP4 with 10K attack (Nadrolski), will actually help them, because he also have about 200K vital energy (400K with burst), and he often give the burst to whoever needs experience for their creatures. Actually, did anyone ever said he/she is scared by Nadrolski, Apophys, The Phoenix, or other MP4 that grind stats at GGG? And if someone said he/she is afraid of them, did he/she gave solid reasons? I can tell you that they NEVER attacked me outside GGG (except Nadrolski, who attacked me once or twice during last HC competition, because I had some heads). as for MP5, ppl actually have reasons to be scared by those with 10K attack (or more), because they will actually be killed by them. and there will be more and more ppl with huge stats at MP5, and newbies will be attacked more and more. I played alot of MMORPGs. indeed, in most of them, high lvl players can attack lower lvls, but usually they don't, because they have small gains by attacking low lvl players (so, they don't have reasons to attack them). actually, they loose something by attacking them (either waste time, or energy - something similar to APs here, but probably more important). But here, old MP5 players loose nothing by attacking younger players (except honor maybe, which is not a big deal). This is the big problem with this game. Old players are encouraged to attack young and weak players, a fact that I never saw in other games. I know this game is unique, different from all the other games, but to keep it balanced, there must be a protection system for new players, as other games have. there is a protection system for MP3 and MP4 (the personal exp cap, which doesn't allow ppl like Nadrolski to attack weak players, since he already is close to exp cap). But there's nothing to protect MP5 newbies.