Combat System Redesign

[Liberty4life]

[color=#0000cd]Split from [/color][url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12348-skill-damage-block/"][color=#0000cd]here[/color][/url][color=#0000cd] ~Burns[/color]

no lone wolf... point is only elite will be able to win shield from skill dmg, meanin they will be able to keep up trainin

ya are distributin shield in same manner as skill dmg, thats biggest problem (in addition to others i already said in previous post), it will all finish where on eon, or some other lucky winner who is also one of top fighters soz i dunt see point in that

and no again, everybody can beat anybody is nut called spells, its called usin creats in smart way by anticipatin wut defender is usin and then usin yoar brain wut to use against him, this concept is lost since stats became ubber high and when ya combine them with tokens good auras and uber creats, ya created unbeatable rit

yeah i am also against idea of buyin stats from shop thats idiotic imo, and they increase by percentage... even worse, thing is nobody complained that ya can buy shitload of ve attack and def, why? cuz everybody wants to use that option one day when they think they are ready and get few dozen million of stats over night and hopefully bypass eon, and hit the roof of sky with their head, why i didnt complained, well idc actually just sayin how things are, if folks like it like that then np idc really cuz i dunt fight anyways

if ya ask me, md needs to get rid of stats and rework whole combat system from scratch, md needs one new dev just for that (which md cant afford), and need to implement new ideas that aint affect with stupid numbers, i dunt understand why every game sooner or later has to fall on that: hey lets raise our number value in "damage" then lets raise this up too..... etc etc and we are pro, i hate that kind of approach, the reason why almost all games use that kind of system is becoz its easy to implement, its finished solution, ya dunt have to think much, since implementin system that is both fair to veterancy of fightin and to be balanced while nut usin some stat crap is very hard, well ya can notice that it cant really be done, but ya must that md initially was set towards that path with some quazi-stat system, back then stats didnt mattered ya had some it helped ya but nut much and that was point, mur never anticiapted they would grow up so much, and thats problem, and also addin other things that effect combat like items, spells and tokens well it makes things worse and its too late to go back and fix things up on way they were intended to be, back then spell were oke they were this op as today, but today they are and they need to be cuz of all other stuff that is scalin up, but still they aint good solution to balance things up, which is obvious

anyway back on topic, by implementin this shield of yoars, we could say yeah its oke we solved problem of stat dmg (read up wut i think about stats....and ignore it for this paragraph since atm i am writin in ideal situation thats nuw actual and from yoar point of view) but then ya would have ppl still complainin and sayin stuff, then they would get reply: "win bhc earn shield", and then the angry poster would reply back and say how the heck am i supposed to win bhc to guard myself from skill dmg if i cant train up stats high enough in first place to win it, so seeeee this aint fixin problem but rather makin it even deeper

but as i said, skill dmg is there to lower down stats to reasonable levels they were meant to be, but skill dmg aint doin its work succesfully, since acquirin stats is still much higher, and eon is immune to it, it can only slow down others from gainin stats

all this talk about skill dmg, while actual problem are stats

point of stats (i am repeatin myself) is to act as small bonus for fightin veterancy (or dedication towards it), its nut meant to be ultimate tool for destruction

imo very good solution to all this would be to make base multipliers for each stats used in combat (init, power, luck, att, def) and then make relative system which would compare amount of stats two confronted players have and then make ratio which would be multiplied with base multipliers (which are same for all) and then add those relative stats in combat and use them instead, so if somebody has 10 times more attack for example and if multiplier is for att is 10, then ya get 10 att for that fight, and he gets 100, simple as that, it would make ya stronger in fight so yoar trainin wasnt for nuthin, but it still would be the ALFA&OMEGA of whole fight, ofc there needs to be exceptions for cases such as player with 10mil att attacks dude with 10 att that would make first one still get insane amount of stats in actual fight, so it should have some exception to it

redesign of system like i proposed in last paragraph would solve many things, but thing that ya propose would just add another thing into system that is already crowded and wouldnt solve anythin, current combat system doesnt need new counterbalances, IT NEEDS TO GET REDESIGNED

Edited May 22, 2012 by Liberty4life
mod note added

[Fire Starter]

I second you, Lib, but sadly we are humans. Our outdated human nature still draw us back to the caves we started from (if this theory is true at all).

Sadly, being on top of the top easily replaces the opportunity of being different. What was the word... "show off"?

Edited May 22, 2012 by Fire Starter

[Guillak]

(Building on Liberty's "offtopic" paragraphs, mods feel free to split)

[size=2][quote name='Liberty4life' timestamp='1337690996' post='112587'][/size]
[size=2]if ya ask me, md needs to get rid of stats and rework whole combat system from scratch, md needs one new dev just for that (which md cant afford), and need to implement new ideas that aint affect with stupid numbers, i dunt understand why every game sooner or later has to fall on that: hey lets raise our number value in "damage" then lets raise this up too..... etc etc and we are pro, i hate that kind of approach, the reason why almost all games use that kind of system is becoz its easy to implement, its finished solution, ya dunt have to think much, since implementin system that is both fair to veterancy of fightin and to be balanced while nut usin some stat crap is very hard, well ya can notice that it cant really be done, but ya must that md initially was set towards that path with some quazi-stat system, back then stats didnt mattered ya had some it helped ya but nut much and that was point, mur never anticiapted they would grow up so much, and thats problem, and also addin other things that effect combat like items, spells and tokens well it makes things worse and its too late to go back and fix things up on way they were intended to be, back then spell were oke they were this op as today, but today they are and they need to be cuz of all other stuff that is scalin up, but still they aint good solution to balance things up, which is obvious[/size]

[size=2][...][/size]

[size=2]point of stats (i am repeatin myself) is to act as small bonus for fightin veterancy (or dedication towards it), its nut meant to be ultimate tool for destruction[/size]

[size=2]imo very good solution to all this would be to make base multipliers for each stats used in combat (init, power, luck, att, def) and then make relative system which would compare amount of stats two confronted players have and then make ratio which would be multiplied with base multipliers (which are same for all) and then add those relative stats in combat and use them instead, so if somebody has 10 times more attack for example and if multiplier is for att is 10, then ya get 10 att for that fight, and he gets 100, simple as that, it would make ya stronger in fight so yoar trainin wasnt for nuthin, but it still would be the ALFA&OMEGA of whole fight, ofc there needs to be exceptions for cases such as player with 10mil att attacks dude with 10 att that would make first one still get insane amount of stats in actual fight, so it should have some exception to it[/size]
[size=2][/quote][/size]


Another suggestion, possibly "cleaner" than such multipliers: make all stats relative to each other, rather than using absolute values. For instance, if my profile has three stats

Attack 20
Defense 100
Power 5

Then the actual numbers used in combat would be

Attack 16% (20 / (20+100+5))
Defense 80% (100 / (20+100+5))
Power 4% (5 / (20+100+5))

Obviously not usable as such (I guess some veterans have very unbalanced stats, e.g. my "attack" is 15 times higher than "trade sense"), but hopefully you get the idea. In the above example, I would clearly have a "defensive" profile.

To put it differently: [i]shape[/i] is more important than [i]size[/i]. That's what one of the trigger tips suggests, regarding the principles. The longer you stay in the realm (the more you "train"), the more unique, and robust, your shape. Thus your "absolute stats" (current ones) can still grow indefinitely, but there would not be any point in increasing them ad lib, except to reinforce your shape.

Veterans would thus not be "stronger", but "insensitive to change", as their percentages would evolve much slower if their stats are huge. The older you are, the more difficult it is to change your identity. Veterans already have stronger creatures and tokens already.

Back to skill damage: in this context, it would only [i]alter[/i] your shape, not [i]hurt[/i] it. You might even [i]need[/i] skill damage if you are a veteran that wants a major change of profile. And I don't think giving skill damage to all players would be a problem …

Again: not usable as such. But something along this line sounds quite MD-ish in my opinion, as it would introduce the concept of balance in your very profile. And all newbies would have a chance to overcome vets again etc.

[Grido]

Just pointing out %'s wont work like that because players with neg stats would mess up stuff :-P

General concept of reworking stat system might be nice though, it'd have to be made so that it wasnt pointless for thpse players to get he stats in th first place is te only thing else you might get a number of players leaving. Fighting and stat game would need to remain an aspect of md, even if the stats themselves are altered somehow

[lightsage]

I was in the process of writing an email to the council with the shock of: I went from 8500 attack to 1000000 in no time at all.

Yes, combat system needs to be changed.

No, solutions cannot be discussed on forum.

Why not? Because the likely scenario (in fact already on going) is that a proposal is made that wouldn’t work due to some combat mechanic. Changing the stats has impications on the rest of the fighting system. It’d require altering that too. Current combat mechanics themselves (on 0% for example) are flawed as well. To rebut proposals, I’d have to post spoilers on inner game/combat mechanics on the forum.

Alterations would be preferable if they are to be made the real question is: Who’ll design them?

There are few people who have an understanding required. Most of them have been around for a while and are not as active as they were. Most people these days copy tactics (The Monkey Banana and Water Spray Experiment). And don’t actually know why that is what works. In addition to this the essence of creatures would have to be maintained.

I think Rendril would be capable of doing this. However, he already has too much work on his hands. And make no mistake: ‘Balancing’ everything would be a LOT of work. By balancing I mean making sure several tactics are viable and that there’s a higher diversity of creatures that have their uses. As well as making stats less significant.

I’d suggest that if the council actually wants the combat system/application of stats to be altered they assign a group of people whom have actual understanding to ‘redesign’ it.

EDIT: Wrote it in a text editor and accidentally pasted it twice.

Edited May 22, 2012 by lightsage

[Liberty4life]

hmm yeah part with mine base multipliers can be changed and would be good to change into somethin else than actual number but still... need to think about those stuff a bit

problem with yoar example is that it still makes one side with tons of stats still op, but if we combine yoar idea instead in place of mine base multipliers (guess that was yoar point) with mine relative stat calculating, it would made things work

then we would have "shape" of profile which would be influenced by ratios of yoar own stats, and then we would have relative ratios which are the ones that compare yoar and opponents stats

so lets see... combat stats are regen, power, attack, defense, initiative and luck; tradesense, energ imm and brisk aint used in combat so it doesnt matter, regen is used only at end of combat, and imo it shouldnt be altered as well that leaves us with power, init, luck, att and def, att and def tend to be VERY high due to them bein easier to gain, and also they are acquireable in shop, we need to take that in account when makin this base multipliers in guillak's fashion cuz we would only have "two" (it would always be att or def at first place mostly att, and then def in second) BASE shapes otherwise rather than 5^5 >_> atm me has no solution for this, other 3 stats would need some % handicap to determine shapes properly, so in next example i will use guillak current method...

so lets say...
(where the heck is table button?)
| Me | Wodin (his stats were first public ones i could find atm so i use him )
att | 1742 | 3140
def | 1078 | 1901
luck | 164 | 124
power | 470 | 74
init | 255 | 165
------------------------------------------
sum | 3709 | 5404

personal ratios aka base multiplers (it says how much is percentage of yoar single stat in yoar overall sum of all yoar combat stat, in other words, which stat is dominating out of 5 combat stats)
------------------------------------------ just roughly calculated atm...
att | 47% | 58%
def | 29% | 35%
luck | 4,5% | 2,5%
power | 12,5% | 1,5%
init | 7% | 3%

relatives ratios between two players aka relative multipliers (it says how much times player stat is higher against other players same stat)
att ratio: 1:1,8025
def ratio: 1:1,7634
luck ratio: 1,3225:1
power ratio: 6,3513:1
init ratio: 1,5454:1

so those relative multipliers should be multiplied with personal multipliers... >_> but problem is how to get good personal multipliers, guillaks idea is nice with profile shape... but obvious problem is how to make them fair so stats dont skyrocket again, and how to make them that att and def aint so dominatin in every single situation... (which is caused by fact that they are gained easiest and in biggest quantity >_>), so we might need to get different solution for that

so however for now lets say base modifier is 10 for each stat, which would mean that in combat stats applied would be like this

| Me | Wodin
att | 10 | 18
def | 10 | 17
luck | 13 | 10
power | 63 | 10
init | 15 | 10

so this is roughly how it would work, mine idea is that stats applied are relative and that they do their small influence on combat but not much, we dunt wanna see "one shot kill" rits anymore i guess, and wanna see some brains used again, but we still wanna see that stats affect combat and that there is still point in havin more, we just dunt want it to be that stats decide alone, so relative is way to go, but still there are exceptions to be made in case of immense stat differences in first place, then exception with too low stats, and ofc the better solution for base modifier, when that is done we would need to adjust it with spells and tokens... (whos effect i guess get added to stats just like before and aid yoar stats before relative ratios are calculated, and that seems simple and easy way to solve it but still open to discussion if somebody has better idea)

oh ps.... wut about ve...?
there are very high ve pools, problem with applyin this relative method to ve is that it would affect heat gain/loss a lot, and also there is that percentage modifier of stats used before fight which affects tokens, stats and ve (first two aint problem, ve is problem cuz of heat) >_> so..... idk... heh

so still lookin for good solution to base modifiers and ve/heat thingy >_> actually i would like oppinions on ve/heat first discussed and then look for solution

heat is problem in here if we lower it with relative thingy... then less ve would be applied and whole heat gain/loss system would be needed to be changed as well, but then again noob would also have more ve left to heal... imagine they put in 100% but due to relative they use only 10% for example meanin 90% are still left for healin creats afterwards....

and if we let ve remain as it is, then eles would be OP, as well as angys and priests, since dmg creats with so small stats wont be able to kill off multy million ve creats

edit: as lightsage pointed out and as i discovered in this post, yep nut just stats need to be changed but rather much more, so rename it into combat system redesign? or can i maybe do that myself? ...

Edited May 22, 2012 by Liberty4life

[Rannel]

Reading what Libery4life wrote i had an idea that could repair the system without changing it. (Warning!! some may hate it passionately )

Idea is based on RL. Anyone keeping themselves fit know that you have to work on it. And to do any sport on a serious level you need to work even harder. Finally professional sport demands constant work on your form. If a pro stops his workouts, he looses his top form and needs time to get back to it.

What i'm proposing is a kind of viscosity on your stats. You don't fight on a regular basis, you loose your stats (temporary as a negative "lazy" bonus or permanently even). To keep up with the analogy with sports, high stats should demand much more work so the stat loss should be some percent of the current. With proper math (witch i will have to work on) it might create a max stats level because you can only fight so much in one day.

This would need a well made proportional system to promote some average stats that relatively easy to keep.

Since its something i came up just now i need to think on possible problems with it i see:
- Grinders might pester ppl just to keep their stats high
- Sharing your game time between fight and quest/RP would become a harder decision since you would really loos something by not fighting.


Like i said its just a stub of an idea without any real math yet but i would like to hear you toughs on it

Edit: Yes it is a constant stat damage basically and it will hurt in the beginning but the stat should stabilize at some point into a much more balanced environment.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Rannel

[lightsage]

No comment, I refer to my previous post.

[Liberty4life]

interestin idea, how i missed that, i like it but it also has some problems, like difference on how much players are online and attackable for example, and how much time ya win and such, some win more some less, and psychology problem behind player when he sees that nothin is permanent, irl its different, cuz ya cant really go inactive irl

[Rannel]

Still thinking it through to make some sensible math model. First thing i noticed is that it would have to be based not on fights won/loss but rather fights xp gained or vit damage dealt.

Your right about inactive thing Liberty. I think it might be working on active days only or with some much more slower form working on inactive players (like one time a week or more).

[Grido]

People going to ignore LS then? Alrighty...

Also i reitterate about not being able to do ratios or percentages because of neg stats. Also cannot visc stats for the same reason, makes sense when they're more than 0 but none at all, less than none if a player has neg stats.

[Liberty4life]

grido, point in here is first to work on main schema and then to expand it with exception which would include negative stats as well

as for lightsages post, were wut can we say, except to wait till somebody steps up for that job officially which council/mur havent opened yet and in meanwhile brainstorm possible solutions on forum

[Grido]

I was kinda hoping to avoid going in depth about how there arw no solutions with regards to neg stats with the % ration or visc ideas... I can, but my thumbs would get sore from typing on phone. I'm all for a solution, just those wont work or would be so overcomplicated it'd be ridiculous.

[Liberty4life]

well its also impossible to make base modifiers purely % due to before mentioned exceptions with very low stats goin vs anythin

yeah... at first look i cant think of any solution that is simple for neg stats, only complicated ones

but then again question is if neg stats are even needed

[Maebius]

[quote name='Liberty4life' timestamp='1337732700' post='112644']
but then again question is if neg stats are even needed
[/quote]

They are needed, that's all I'm going to add here.
I agree there are issues with combat, but why re-write it entirely? That fundamentally changes what MD has become.

[Grido]

And even if they weren't (they are). There's no real way other than a reset to remove them in the first place, and md being againgst resets leads me to believe thatd be unlikely.

[Chewett]

[img]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/20830946.jpg[/img]

seriously, a reset would bugger up everything that people bought, ect, which for some peolpe its a lot. It would be entirely unfair, unless you are suggesting to REFUND ALL THE THINGS!

Edit: images are nice

Edited May 23, 2012 by Chewett

[Fire Starter]

Is this a new movement rising up? LOL

[apophys]

How about leaving stat gains and most things alone, and just scale down how increased stats affect a creature's strength? This would then fix tokens as well, while doing no harm to people who spent tons of effort to raise their stats.


For example:

If <total increase in a stat by tokens/influence/skillvampire> is not negative,
<creature's stat> = <creature's base stat> * ln (<stat increase> + e)

This way, even with a billion attack, you'd only multiply the creature's attack by 20. And with only 150 attack, it would be multiplied by 5.
There would be no limit to how high you could increase a creature's attack, but the effect of further training your stats would be absolutely miniscule at the high end.
With 0 stat increase, the stat would stay as it is.
Logarithms are very simple and useful.


You could use a similar equation for negative stat increases, just making sure that the two halves of the piecewise function are continuous at 0.


EDIT: Woot, 500th post.

EDIT2: I just realized that this type of change would make creature initiative matter again. For example, a newbie's aramor would always attack before a veteran's grasan.

Edited May 23, 2012 by apophys

[Eagle Eye]

How about mp4 creature can maxed here creatures to maximum level. we know the strongest are mp5,mp6,mp7. Let allow the mp4 to maxed level here creatures. this is the way to know who are the stronger in MD.

we hoping for the best

[Fire Starter]

Glad to see you back in action, apophys

Still, the problem with unsatisfied players, who worked hard for those millions of stats would remain...

[apophys]

[quote name='Fire Starter' timestamp='1337777709' post='112683']
Glad to see you back in action, apophys

Still, the problem with unsatisfied players, who worked hard for those millions of stats would remain...
[/quote]

Certainly they should be taken into consideration, but honestly, for them the best system is the current one. However the system gets changed, they will likely be unsatisfied.

I think my suggestion is the best compromise so far. It still gives some kind of real combat benefit to increasing your stats.

[Fire Starter]

Yes, it makes sense and I like it. But let me share an experiment of mine.

A while ago, when I was experimenting with my new creatures, I was hunting for Eon to try them on. And here the big day came. I found Eon, I attacked him with 3 crits + 3 Soulwavers, Eon was set on 100%. I knew I couldn't win, but I hoped the auras combined would've helped me to be able to resist, just a little while. Well, even with few mills stats increased (and Eon's decreased), again I was wiped out in the middle of the second round
And I forgot - there was a Pope to aid me also.

This comes to show, that with the current system, even powerful creatures, that normally I've seen turning the tables, now are rendered useless.

My 2 coins on the matter. I hope some good solution would come out of this topic. I feel it's going the right way.

[Liberty4life]

zomg apophys good reminder bro

how i could have forgotten about creats base stats

so if stats are negative they are applied normally

if they are positive, relative stat modifier is bein calculated between players, and instead of base modifier we use creat stats, so creat stats are multiplied by relative modifier

that way earned stats still matter which "isnt" (well the more ya get less useful it is so it counts as nut useful) case with logaritmic function...

and this way problem with big ve pools is solved as well cuz relative multiplier gets multiplied with creat stat, it comes to acceptable values even for dmgers

nuw only remains to make additional exception for low stats (need to decide which interval is considered as TOO low stats)

imo i can see this workin with no problems and without much changes since it would take like 3 new php functions to be writen

[Rannel]

Been busy but I've given a bit of thinking about my idea and other ones in this topic.

The biggest flaw i see in Liberty and Apophys idea is that it adds another level of complexity to the combat system. Now the stats inform you how much your crits will gain but with the introduction of those changes it gets much less clear. Remember that newbies are supposed to learn this system without us explaining it to them (at least that's how i understand this no spoilers rule).

Other then that i find it a very good idea It takes care of both stats and tokens and is much more possible to implement then mine.

But that won't stop me from proposing it so the simple system could look like that:

Everyday stat modificator = stat * fall variable(see below) * (-1)

In the beginning i wanted to condition this stat fall based on player activity but i realized there's no need for that. A small stat fall each day of active playing can be stopped by gaining stats normally. Now depending on the fall variable it means a player with 8k stat would need to gain 0,8 (at 0,0001 fall variable) or 8 (at 0,001). A low stat player won't have to worry about it really but a big one would have to work hard to keep their stats.

I must say i can't honestly choose an optimal variable - i don't have enough knowledge to say what is an average stat value in MD now.

As for the negative stats this equation aims to zero so negative stats will get a positive modificator. I might not understand the true reason for negative stats but i find the idea of stats slowly balancing to zero a good thing (but it's optional).

Minuses:

- Gargantuan stats are impossible to keep with this system.
- At some point this will make veterans and newbies similar in stats - the differences will be based on activity mostly (some might see it as a plus others as a minus).
- This does not takes into consideration the tokens or other stats modifications. it will in fact make them more powerful i guess.

Pluses:

- The stat fall isn't instantaneous, it will take some time to balance the game so players will have time to adjust.
- This is something you add on top of the current system. No need to change other things so its easier to implement.

This is a simple system. I'm still thinking how to add an accumulation of experience witch doesn't fall with a physical (or rather mental) fitness witch does and still keep the balancing properties. Also not sure all stats should be treated equally.

Edit: made some space to make it easier to read plus stat amount corrected

Edited May 23, 2012 by Rannel