Also regarding a possible rule change

[Pipstickz]

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12864-regarding-a-possible-rulechange/"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12864-regarding-a-possible-rulechange/[/url]

While I see no problem with making sure nobody gets cheated, I do have one question: What would be the punishment for breaking this rule?

[Shadowseeker]

We didn't discuss it, but as an option infraction points and a possible ban for the market section were named.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

What are infraction points?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Ackshan Bemunah' timestamp='1345296654' post='120389']
What are infraction points?
[/quote]

each user have a warning level whereby they are warned officially via moderators. If you haven't been warned then you have 0 points. When you reach a higher level you are likely to face punishment such as being banned for a period of time, or having the posts moderated for a period of time.

if someone wishs to inquire about their warning level, they can ask a moderator.

[Pipstickz]

I don't like the idea of punishing somebody on the forum for something they did in-game. Banning from the market section, maybe, though that is quite harsh, but general forum warning points, no.

[url="http://magicduel.com/pages/trial.jaco_vs_granos.php"]Jaco Vs Granos[/url]

If somebody is cheated, I would suggest going to the Council and posting about it on the forum.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Does Council have power in the forums? Seems like that would be the mods' domain...I don't know, I'm asking.

[Grido]

Pip, you should note that the punishment is only for misleading topics on the forum in relation to it, not if someone does some dodgy trade in game which doesn't have a part on the forum...

[Pipstickz]

If Joe posts a topic saying "I'm gonna sell you a grasan with 20 million heat" and it turns out to only have 6500 heat when you get it, Joe would not only be punished in-game, but on the forum as well. If Steve does the exact same, but using PMs or mood panel instead, he gets off with only the in-game punishment. That does not make sense.

The forum rule is a preventative measure that is unnecessary, when you take into account that not only do people get the system punishments, but social pressure and bad trading reputation as well. Best case scenario if you do this, you prevent the one or two people who actually try something, worst case scenario, you warn/punish a bunch of people who've done nothing strictly wrong and may have good intentions, and make plenty of people frustrated.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Pure speculation follows:

Think of the rule as more of a protection of the role of the forum, similar to the way those who haven't contributed to an alliance remain excluded from an alliance-specific forum.

There is also a question of the community image.

[Burns]

In my opinion, the market section has a far greater reach then the mood panel. You can do a better presentation of your goods if you are not limited to 70 characters, more people read it, it doesn't vanish, and it's a lot easier to track offers, because those don't vanish, either.
Also, as far as i know, there are no ingame punishments for attempted frauds, while i think those should definitely exist on the forum.

The Central Market makes trading a lot easier, because both supply and demand know that they can go there for most of their needs. It's like a stock exchange, if you wish. The stocks could be sold without a stock exchange, but it's way easier for buyer and seller to meet in NYSE than in the backyard of their homes. In turn for the benefits of the centralized market, they have to obey stricter rules than in other places.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Burns

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1345355633' post='120446']
Also, as far as i know, there are no ingame punishments for [b]attempted[/b] frauds, while i think those should definitely exist on the forum.
[/quote]
I don't, this is the point of contention for me. I don't like the idea of people being punished for what the mods believe is an attempt, because you simply have to look at Fang to see where this could get messy. Therefore, I would suggest punishments and warnings stay out of it until it can be proven that somebody is actually trying to pull something, whether that's the actual crime or a second attempt.

[Shadowseeker]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1345415224' post='120499']
I don't, this is the point of contention for me. I don't like the idea of people being punished for what the mods believe is an attempt, because you simply have to look at Fang to see where this could get messy. Therefore, I would suggest punishments and warnings stay out of it until it can be proven that somebody is actually trying to pull something, whether that's the actual crime or a second attempt.
[/quote]

We warn first typically anyways, so first offenders would be informed. If that happens more, with one party or another being unhappy about the change especially (we have no method and time to track the heat of every creat that is being sold for example normally), then there would be punishments. It's easy to remedy if every seller just adds a sentence saying these values may change, final confirmation before sale etc.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Shadowseeker

[Pipstickz]

It's also easy to forget, then you get unnecessary warnings. People would love that.

[Shadowseeker]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1345442379' post='120515']
It's also easy to forget, then you get unnecessary warnings. People would love that.
[/quote]

People would love to pretend to forget as well at times. But I'd rather have a bit more work when setting up a sale in here and in return get guaranteed satisfaction when I actually buy something.

[Pipstickz]

Not guaranteed satisfaction, just extra punishment if they're caught. If somebody actually intends to cheat you, they know about possible risks and have most likely accepted the possibility, an extra possible punishment isn't going to deter them all that much.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pipstickz

[BFH]

Well this is part of forum so forum penalizations sounds correct. On the other hand, it can be simple. We just have a public chart with the "warning level"X player have. If I'm going to buy and I notice X have a high warning level I won't buy from him/her.

[Chewett]

I was considering having someone deal with these issues and the forum section day to day runnings. If someone is interested in running the forum as sieg did (as fenrir) please send me a pm

Since the clc are running trials would it not be better to hand issues over to them and such? Punishment can be dealt with them and a method to warn people against bad traders can be upheld and devised by the person who runs the forum