Long Term Issue with new Win/Loss System

[Eldrad]

With the new system for counting player wins and losses every fight will produce exactly 1 loss but only some fights will produce wins. As time goes on this means that the total number of losses will be larger than the total number of wins. As a result most people won't be able to maintain an even number of wins and losses so they won't get the 2x XP reward.

However you are also rewarded for having far more losses than wins and in fact the reward can be substantially larger. If you would get more than 200 honor for a fight you get extra XP instead. It is now much easier to get your losses much higher than your wins while still attacking and gaining plenty of XP and wins for your creatures (therefore increasing your stats). Simply attack with overwhelming strength and you will often not get a Victory.

Eventually if this system persists most of the players who had been actively playing will have far more losses than wins. Which will reward them nicely any time they fight with someone who has a win/loss ratio that isn't as extreme. A new player who comes into this will be presented mostly with targets that give them lots of negative honor (odds are this will be most extreme at the highest MP level and not particularly noteworthy at lower MP levels). Especially if the player has managed to keep their profile balanced they will be severely punished by the honor system and their 2x XP reward will be much smaller than the XP reward given to someone else for beating them.

[Sacosphilz]

I have few experience with game play beyond MP3, so I don't know how serious the loss farming problem was, but I'm worried about the long term effect of the new system as well.

In my opinion, no matter what rules are put in place, total win and loss counts in the game world should always be equal.

(Aside: Of course, there is the effect of new players who lose a lot with few won fights giving up and leaving the game, and the effect of people rushing wins to advance to MP4, which make total win counts exceed loss counts at high MP, but they do not affect the overall balance in the long term in any extreme way -- the player-average win/loss difference at each MP level would stay the same. I believe there are other ways to address these problems other than the new win/loss system.)

As long as there is no better solution to the loss farming problem, I'd like to suggest that the current "new" win/loss criteria works the same way for win and loss counts, meaning if a player gets a loss count if and only if another player gets a win count.

There are also some comments that the new criteria isn't fair or doesn't make sense in some scenarios, and that some rules might need to be tweaked, but I'm not qualified to comment on the details.

[necro]

As long as there is no better solution to the loss farming problem, I'd like to suggest that the current "new" win/loss criteria works the same way for win and loss counts, meaning if a player gets a loss count if and only if another player gets a win count.

There are also some comments that the new criteria isn't fair or doesn't make sense in some scenarios, and that some rules might need to be tweaked, but I'm not qualified to comment on the details.

I already suggest this in a previous subject, I really think that this matter should be seriously taken in consideration or it will happen as Eldrad said...I'm sure that no one wants that

[No one]

Actually No one wants something else

I'm pretty happy with the new system because YOU choose when you need a lose. It does not depend now on the other players. Maybe Eldrad is right: on long term it will not be a solution but the prevoius one was even worse. So for the moment I say: stick with this system fight.

ps:maybe the go idle function is no more needed because now you do not expect players to attack you (or...most ou the players i guess)

[Sacosphilz]

I already suggest this in a previous subject, I really think that this matter should be seriously taken in consideration or it will happen as Eldrad said...I'm sure that no one wants that

I hadn't read the other thread properly. Sorry.

[phlegmtheorem]

As I posted in the other thread, it's mathmatically not possible for this system to sustain itself (as elrand put much more eloquently) unless the players that accumulate the most losses just reset their accounts, which is not the optimal outcome for anyone.

[william sharp]

Well so far I think the new system has some serious issues. 1) I finished story mode (going into MP4) and left it alone. I come back the day and now have 33 new losses. I have no idea how someone above chooses to loose with the new system but I'm getting losses like hotcakes. Not only that but creatures require wins to level up and so far I haven't been able to get any of those. All in all I give this new system two thumbs down and will probably quit playing pretty soon.

[Metal Bunny]

My my, such a pessimist. It's like the start of mp3, you will get wins after a while, it's usually this way once you start in a new mp. Also the new system is primarily targeted at the stronger players who simply got to much wins. It's not really fair to judge this new system while it hasn't even really applied to you yet. (you, I guess, haven't had a chronic need of losses yet, and with chronic I mean like 50 a day, if you're active).

But I must agree, it isn't fair that the new system, for which you do not yet have a great need for, is applying to you.

Remember it's still in a test phase, so giving up so soon is kind of working against you and the game, it sends the wrong message.

[Akasha]

Plus, it's good for a mp 3/4 to have losses....but i thing that at mp 3/4 u can get wins easier then at mp5/6. the players from that mp don't have all the creatures up (or at least more then half of them)like us, the pl from mp5/6. so if u make a good ritual with good creatures u can have wins. and if u don't want to get losses when ure not at the pc then click logout, this way u won't be attacked.

[SilkenMinx]

I'll honestly be happy with the new system when I figure out how to win a single fight... As it stands right now, I can never find people online to attack and I'm always losing when others attack me.

[thrall]

I'll honestly be happy with the new system when I figure out how to win a single fight... As it stands right now, I can never find people online to attack and I'm always losing when others attack me.

just put your best armie and be shure to have max ve on them, 8 times out of 10 works

[necro]

just put your best armie and be shure to have max ve on them, 8 times out of 10 works

I always do that and it doesn't work, because most of the time I win with about 5%/100% or I loose I rarely get victories....I say there should be also a restriction to the lost counter so the profiles could be balanced...I think something as simple as you getting losses only when the other player gets a victory should work just fine...

[omegaweapon]

hmm there is a problem that i cant understand when we had people with 700 more win than loss there was not lots of people with 200 more loss than win beacuse there was alliances

but now when in any fight there is a sure loss but not sure win how we can keep the balance?(withough alliances i mean) its very easy mathematic loss will win (lol)

there wont be any balance soon only very rare people can keep their balance but it mean nothing beacuse balanced people have no one to get honor from so they force to get more loss

in 1 month everyone go to have unbalance profile toward the loss

[william sharp]

My my, such a pessimist. It's like the start of mp3, you will get wins after a while, it's usually this way once you start in a new mp. Also the new system is primarily targeted at the stronger players who simply got to much wins. It's not really fair to judge this new system while it hasn't even really applied to you yet. (you, I guess, haven't had a chronic need of losses yet, and with chronic I mean like 50 a day, if you're active).

But I must agree, it isn't fair that the new system, for which you do not yet have a great need for, is applying to you.

Remember it's still in a test phase, so giving up so soon is kind of working against you and the game, it sends the wrong message.

Yeah, I deserved that. I was came to the game that day with a bad mood already. I wasn't aware that at higher levels their is such a need for loss farming so that makes a bit of sense to adjust the system to compensate. I figured it was still in test phase which was one of the main reasons I left the comment. Bit of feedback to the programmers. Anyway, I'm still here and I finally got a couple of wins. I noticed their aren't that many people around the shop tonight, hope thats not due to people fed up with the new combat rules.

[A A T S E]

I don't have any problem with the new system though, really it only mean you dont get the 2x bonus, it doesnt make the game unplayable. All it means is you dont take the 2x bonus for granted(or at least more difficult to get than the previous system), you need to work for it.

There is further no promise made by anyone that everyone will have a balanced win/loss ratio, so the mathematical approach that there will be no win/loss balance is really irrelevant.

In fact im happy with the new system because I can farm losses much easier As long as my creatures can get wins even I dont get the win count, imo, its all good

[phrog]

I think the logic showing how we (higher MPs) will eventually all have more losses than wins is solid. It makes sense to me. I like the concept of giving losses when somebody achieves a victory.

[shadowice]

this already happens when an mp4 comes to mp5 they are dinner for a few weeks. Most of them give me 200-300 honor by now and i still try to win against everyone in site

[Skyite]

Right now im in thte getting killed stage T_T

[ZaiTh]

When I came to MP4 I was 112/110. Now I am Won: 129 | Lost: 283

I am at Max Honor but what does that really do for me? So far from what I have noticed, it does pretty much nothing for you, that most people would be bothered to worry about. To get max honor, all you have to do is sit outside of a sanctuary for a few days and get farmed. People like myself who play at work with low bandwidth are getting farmed lol.

There is a huge disparity throughout MP4. I think the levels, sorry Mind Powers, need to be broken up more. Is MP5 the same way?

This game can be fun but it is very limiting and will discourage new players.

[Firbran]

I agree that there's a large disparity in power in mp4, I don't know if splitting it up would help or make things worse... More importantly, it's because extremely hard to balance out my win/lose. Almost everyone in my range at the low end of mp4 has more losses than wins. A LOT more losses. If I keep winning against them I'll get to -500 honor in a flash. I agree, I don't understand how you can have balance in a system that breeds more losses than wins.

[Morgana Le Fey]

try me with my negative 750 honor lol

and i am 5 losses away from balancing my mp4 out

and only 450 away from balancing my mp3 out

but my mp5 Morgana Le Fey has a few more wins than losses about 50 or so

and i dont gain any honor from maybe one active mp5 or 2

[thrall]

i know what you mean, i have about 45 more losses that wins and i can barly feind someone i can fight 4 positive honor and the thing is that almost evrybody gives me more than -50 honor

so the thing is that the honor sistem neads to be redone if we all want to have balance fights

[Tremir]

I've said it before, in a different thread, and I'll say it again.

From what I've seen so far, the problem isn't the honor system, it's the win/loss determination system.

To be more precise, it's the fact that the "loss" counter is a lot more likely to rise then the "win" counter in most battles.

The problem doesn't begin with people wanting a high loss record.

It begins with people getting a high loss record, because losses are much more likely then wins.

This leads to other people wanting losses too, which sends the while system into a spin.

But the while problem begins with the fact that there are more losses in the while system then there are wins.

Again, this are mostly my observations, but the same thing has been noted by other players I've talked too.

[Gchick]

I've said it before, in a different thread, and I'll say it again.

From what I've seen so far, the problem isn't the honor system, it's the win/loss determination system.

To be more precise, it's the fact that the "loss" counter is a lot more likely to rise then the "win" counter in most battles.

The problem doesn't begin with people wanting a high loss record.

It begins with people getting a high loss record, because losses are much more likely then wins.

This leads to other people wanting losses too, which sends the while system into a spin.

But the while problem begins with the fact that there are more losses in the while system then there are wins.

Again, this are mostly my observations, but the same thing has been noted by other players I've talked too.

The fact that the attacker needs to lose a certain percentage of his or her health for it to be counted as a win, makes it SO much harder. In the past week I have gotten exactly TWO wins. Although I have fought over 40 (tried to do 10 a day) and won at least 95% of those fights. That way it's just impossible.

We can't be expected to look for people that give positive honour and at the same time are strong enough to take the right amount of health from us during a fight so it counts as a win, yet not too much so we can still continue and all that WHILE trying to find someone from your MP level PERIOD. (I swear, yesterday I spent 2 hours just looking for MP4's, and found maybe 5. Most of which quickly escaped to santuaries after losing.)

[Glaistig]

The two of you have a point here. However, though the problem is started by the win/loss system, it wouldn't exist if the honor system was changed somehow. The reason why other players want to get as many losses as those who have gotten a bad ratio is because of the honor system. The honor system give incentive for players to have a worse ratio than other players.

Say that the win/loss system was changed back to simple who-did-more-damage, like it still is for mp3s, while the honor system remained. If that happened, the same thing that occurred in the past would reoccur: players would farm losses to gain huge amounts of honor (and exp bonus) from other players, and accordingly, the average balance ratio would keep on worsening.

@Gchick, the reason why those who give you positive honor don't do enough damage to you is that they are probably new to the mindpower and have a better win:loss ratio than you and other players. Originally, people who gave you positive honor were supposed to be stronger than you, as they had a greater win:loss ratio than you. It just goes to show how the system hasn't worked out so well as hoped. x_x;