Reducing the power of Freezes

[Chewett]

If we were to change freeze to some percentage chance, with the chance decreasing the more freezes in the ritual?

[DARK DEMON]

YES! I was typing the same in a much longer way but you beat me :P

Edited October 10, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Tal]

percentage chance depending more on the type of crits.

snowman 75% for each freeze  (they are made to freeze)

bird   60%  magic birds, common to get, and besides weakening, they don't do much else for crits in a rit. besides helping angiens.

drachs 30%,  but levelscare is disconnected from the freeze. (should do some testing for it, but I think levelscare is on the same crit that is frozen)

                      so that even when freeze doesnt work, having a drach has an effect on the others rit.

 

all numbers for freezing chance are just a random number to give an example

 

 

of course if we change it to a percentage chance to freeze,

same should be done to unfreezing.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Tal

[Burns]

I think it'd make more sense to have the first freeze have a 100% chance, then second 66%, third 44%, fourth 30% etc. (or another factor, i just started with 2/3 because i like that fraction), rather than give drachs a flat 30% chance... rustgold and reindrach would be a lot less desireable on their own if they don't freeze anymore.

[lashtal]

If we were to change freeze to some percentage chance, with the chance decreasing the more freezes in the ritual?

 

Completely agreed. 

 

As for how to set said percentage, I tend to agree more with Burns than with Tal.

From my own point of view, I would set 100% chance for the 1st freezer, 50% for the 2nd, 33% for the third and so on until 15% for the 6th freezer.

Might be a little nerfed, but I hate how statless tournaments mean "if you have 6 freezers you win".

[Ary Endleg]

???

 

Currently:

First freeze against enemy with single creature is 1/3 chance because it selects one slot if creature is there it freezes it, if not then selects once more and it can still hit same empty spot, no?

Against 6 creats rit, first freeze is a hit, second freeze can still hit already frozen creature.

 

My point is we already have this decrease of chance for freeze. I don't see how this changes much. You are just making it more complex luck factor. I would pretty much prefer idea of freezes being reworked as abilities with a round or two effects.

[Burns]

It could, but if you bring 5-6 freezes to a fight you end up with a pretty good chance to get 3-4 creatures frozen. If the third freeze had a chance to hit something that's already frozen, and on top of that only 25-40% chance to work at all, it would make using large amounts of freezers rather ineffective, and if you don't even use more than 3 freezers because they have such a little chance to give you an advantage, your opponent will likely not end up with more than 2 frozen creatures ever again, giving him more of a chance to fight.

[Tal]

Giving each crit its own chance percentage to freeze, would keep them more distinct from each other.

 

a drach without freeze is still good. levelscare reduces attack to 20%. increases defence, but defence is most of the time a lot lower then attack. making the increase in defence not much of a problem.

reducing damage done to you is always good. As it works now, freeze and levelscare usually ends up on the same crit (unless it gets unfrozen) making the ability kind of useless most of the times.

a frozen crit cant do damage anyways. Levelscare on it is wasted then.

if you want to keep drachs more desirable, remove an anti-freeze and add a levelscare. as side-effect, it will make hollows more special with their anti-freeze.

[No one]

percentage chance depending more on the type of crits.

snowman 75% for each freeze  (they are made to freeze)

bird   60%  magic birds, common to get, and besides weakening, they don't do much else for crits in a rit. besides helping angiens.

drachs 30%,  but levelscare is disconnected from the freeze. (should do some testing for it, but I think levelscare is on the same crit that is frozen)

                      so that even when freeze doesnt work, having a drach has an effect on the others rit.

 

all numbers for freezing chance are just a random number to give an example

 

 

of course if we change it to a percentage chance to freeze,

same should be done to unfreezing.

While I agree decreasing the chance of freeze, I would like to add another pattern:

 

Similar creatures (in families) to boost their freezing chance. First , lets say, bird tries to freeze with a percent x, then the second would have a small boost (depending on creature , see rust and rein drachorns) like 1.3 * x and the third like 1.3 * 1.3 * x .

But this would require to lower the chances of freeze to about 50% at max.

 

Also, in similar way, the antifreeze has to have chances. Also a creature hit with anti-freeze should have the (anti-freze) percent to resist freeze.

 

Another way to have this freeze / antifreeze sistem is to have at each round the affected creature compute their chances again ... would need to refine this idea.

 

 

Edit: I forgot this : the freeze / antifreeze should be applied according to initiative of each creature

Edited October 10, 2014 by No one

[Ary Endleg]

I like initiative idea as well as that round-based idea. So if after X rounds due to antifreezes chances creature unfreezes itself, would the next round freeze chances make it possible for creature to get frozen again? As in freezes and antifreezes get applied by auras at start of combat but their effect would be volatile from round to round.

 

Not exactly the freezes topic but since whole discussion drifted onto them does that mean that this topic purpose for further limitation of number of creatures is actually over? With agreement that doing such nerf would only lower the big numbers in logs without having any other significant effect on combat? It would also further "damage" economy by lowering trade values of such creature due to lower demand for them since player would need fewer of them.

[Chewett]

I have split the topic.

[Eagle Eye]

morph 33%

drach 75%

bird 100%

Its a Big Changes hoping this is allow?

[Rophs]

Have antifreeze target before antifreeze choosing friendly slots with the following priority (from highest to lowest):

• A random slot containing a creature not under the effects of the antifreeze aura
• A random slot containing a creature under the effects of the antifreeze aura
• A random slot

Have freeze use the same targeting priority.

 

Have a creature's auras not apply if it is frozen.

[Azthor]

Tentative summary:

 

I - Reduce the chance of Freezing, with each cumulative Freeze in a ritual having less chance of firing off (Chewett's suggestion, seemingly supported by Burns, lashtal and DD).

 

II - Reduce the chance of Freezing, subordinating it to the source creature's type (Tal's suggestion with demonstrative percentages. Similar suggestion by EE with specific percentages).

 

III - Reduce the chance of Freezing, then subordinating it to the amount of creatures of a given type in the ritual (No one's suggestion).

 

III' - Apply similarly to Antifreeze. Have Antifreeze also give the providing creature a chance of outright resisting Freezing.

 

III'' - Freeze and Antifreeze should be based on the initiative order of each creature, not on their ID.

 

IV - Freeze and Antifreeze percentages clash each round, with creatures freezing and unfreezing during combat. Specifics pending (No one's alternative suggestion).

 

I am particularly fond of IV, though I believe balancing it according to the availability of Freeze and Antifreeze in a ritual, without, even more so than now, rendering creatures without either useless, would require a baseline bias towards creatures remaining unfrozen, rather than frozen.

 

Please, inform me if I've misunderstood any of the ideas above.

 

@Ary Endleg: I have at last updated all of the threads.

[Ary Endleg]

Awesome, thank you.

 

I'm also fond of IV suggestion but I honestly understood it that it would be aura reworked into ability, hence making a bird more useful.

[Rophs]

That would certainly be a good way to do it. Give the bird the freeze/antifreeze ability along with the rule that it is unfreezable itself. Current freeze/antifreeze auras increase the probability of the freeze/antifreeze working.

 

One problem would be that the player with higher init invested in the ritual would always get to freeze first, so the player with less stats would lose out heavily.

[Jubaris]

Not sure if this was ever brought up: How about when you kill a creature, all of its effects/auras drop? For instance, you manage to kill a reindrach, from that moment on, his freezing aura is annulled, as well as his boost to the gg drach?

 

Also, the III'' suggestion: Initiative giving lead has sense, but the ID portraying the 'fixed' age of a creature is also interesting to me, giving advantage to an older creature - since it is a matter about auras, and not actual attack, the whole spiritual level, it being stronger as it evolves, so makes sense to me that an older creature would unleash its aura first as it is 'stronger' in that aspect.

This is a bit controversial since it overrides the 'age' stat of the creature, making its ID 'the actual age', but still...

[Grido]

Not sure if this was ever brought up: How about when you kill a creature, all of its effects/auras drop? For instance, you manage to kill a reindrach, from that moment on, his freezing aura is annulled, as well as his boost to the gg drach?

 

Freezing wouldn't make sense to be annulled, but maybe it might wear off after a certain number of rounds - you have an ice cube in a freezer, if the freezer is turned off it's still ice, just starts melting.

 

Boost auras would make sense to be removed though

[Myth]

 

Freezing wouldn't make sense to be annulled, but maybe it might wear off after a certain number of rounds - you have an ice cube in a freezer, if the freezer is turned off it's still ice, just starts melting.

 

Boost auras would make sense to be removed though

 

I don't see a freeze coming from a drach as the target turning into a popsicle. More like, drach uses "roar", random enemy starts to shiver in fear = frozen. By this logic, I'd say that once the poor frozen target notices that what he was afraid of is out of the picture, it would summon the courage to act again. :P

[Grido]

Even being frozen in fear, it'd take a while to get over it, even if the object of that fear is no longer present. If someone threatened you with a knife, you'd still feel the effects of the encounter after the aggressor had left.

[Ary Endleg]

I was thinking of a rework for freezes in different manner.

 

Freeze and antifreeze auras would be removed. Instead new abilities would be put in place Freeze and Unfreeze. (naming really isn't important now)

 

Bird and morphs would get freeze ability. Hollow warrior would get unfreeze ability.

 

Freeze ability would hit target/s and apply freeze effect on them lasting for a round or two. Unfreeze ability would remove that effect.

 

Obvious problem is that bird has target multiple while morph has single target. This would get switched.

 

Next problem is that freeze with target multiple seems overpowered, especially if you combine morph and birds and especially if HW who would be antifreeze creature can only do single target. Meaning target multiple shouldn't be allowed, 3 birds and 2 morphs vs 3 HW seems okay if all of them have single target abilities.

 

Another thing I would do in such case is to make unfreezers immune to freeze. If HW is set to use Unfreeze he wouldn't be able to be frozen during combat, while if it's set to use heal he would be able to get frozen.

 

Hitting and missing with either of ability doesn't change, it sort of works like current system. If you set it to target random you are playing a game of chance, if you set it to dying/weak/strong it can be specifically targeted, moreover abilities such as weaken defense, defend and martyrism change the defense stat so it shifts targets as well as normal damaging does for dying, making whole thing chaotic and interesting but it's no longer "gamble".

[Azthor]

If all creatures other than those specified were to lose Freeze and Antifreeze, drachorn and angien rituals would nevertheless maintain their current advantage in that they are left more slots to use those other creatures now bearing Freeze and Antifreeze in. That might make for a relatively low-impact method of placing Freeze and Antifreeze within the initiative roster.

 

Drachorns may gain a somewhat greater advantage from those modifications than the angiens, however, and, barring those occasions were the battle would end before the first turn is complete, rituals would still be pidgeonholed into maintaining creatures with Freeze or Antifreeze to remain competitive.