"Known" Bugs

[Change]

Edit by chew: Edited out last part of post because of a bug publicly posted. Now im going to have to go waste time fixing it

From http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/16098-mp3-erolin-heat-checker/

 

Why is it a waste of time to fix such things? If such bugs are commonly known and abused, say, 50% of active MDers know them, then you seem to be saying it's better to give 50% of people an advantage because they know certain things than it is to let all active MDers know these things equally.

 

I wouldn't say that the people who know of the bugs 'deserve it' more than others. For example, the clicky bug might have been told by LHOs to people asking how to use clickies, or by close friends, or by people posting things in the game chat, etc. When I asked how to use and edit clickies, I was told of no such bug. Thus, it's very much a case of chance.

 

Now, perhaps there's a desire to hide these bugs from the other 50% because if they were made publicly available then every newbie would know about them, rather than the active people who often play MD. Then why not make a list of such bugs sent to a player once they reach say 100 AD?

 

That might seem ridiculous, but if 50% of people already do know about a particular bug (with some people not knowing about any bugs at all) then should MD really stay a game where some people do quests or other activities and have the deck stacked in their favour because they won a coinflip?

 

Should MD stay a game which is ruled by those who break the rules and are told they can?

Edited January 13, 2015 by Change

[Chewett]

You misrepresent this entirely, And I feel this is quite unfair Change.

Firstly, you pick the number 50%, If that number of people knew about a bug, and were abusing it, it would have been fixed months ago. You will then point out that clearly a large number of MD'ers knew about this, Quite possibly indeed. However I have not heard about this bug for a number of years now. Perhaps its hidden away, told via pm, etc, but then how could I know that it was traded around? I had not even thought about this bug for quite a long time now.

You question why its a waste of time fixing things like this? Because it is. For people to enjoy MD, you dont need to bugless, working perfectly. There has been a tremendous number of issues with MD codewise, and people have still enjoyed it. If one person reports a bug, and I hear nothing else about it for months, leads me to believe that its minor and few others know of it. Therefore it doesnt get fixed.

"Well why didnt you fix it immediately?" Well, becuase I wasnt actually a coder for MD when I first heard of it. And why didnt I fix it when I could? Because I had not heard of it for so long, it was not in my mind to do so.

There are a number of bugs and abuses, that honestly will take months to fix properly. Why dont I fix them? because for many of them, only I know them. Its much easier to spot abuses from looking at the code, than someone randomly stumbling onto it. Im not going to spend my time fixing a bug, that no one can find, or even worse, that its theoretically possible to trigger, but practically impossible.

Why dont you make a list? Well, as Iv said above, its very hard to track what bugs are being abused and what are not without setting up honeypots and people are so greedy in MD. I personally doubt im going to get anyone asking "is this a bug" because they are greedy and dont want to possibly lose an exploit they have been using. Im not in favour of giving people a list of things to abuse, some of which can be game breaking, when possibly no one knows of them.

----

What do you propose to do? Just tell everyone every bug? Well MD will be broken within minutes. I fix things as and when they come into the public and need fixing. Currently there is one abuse relating to images that it appears people are still using, and im planning to set up some auto banning code for. So if you see a lot of people suddenly getting banned and requesting unbanning, you will know they are abusers.

What can people do? Well if you are using something you are unsure if it is an abuse or not, and you get caught, you are likely to face some exciting punishment. This is why bug testers need to report bugs, because then if they get caught we wont be banning them forever. So, if you are worried, report the "abuse" and you can be properly informed as to what you are/aren't allowed to do with it.

[Change]

I'm incredibly sorry for my post being rude and unfair (as it has been pointed out to me). While I did not intend it to come off as blaming you, Chewett, it did. You are not to blame at all.

 

Then, according to the situation shown above, the problem is the perception that someone (like me) might get that everyone knows about all these cool 'hidden' features but them. This is an incredible turn off, and the people who have these hidden features both think they're features and occasionally hoard them as 'secret spoilers' it seems. Or, they tell them to people who ask sometimes.

 

Under [Restrictions] in MD the following is written:

 

If something is restricted by the interface and you find a way to do it any way, assume it is a bug or exploit. If you proceed to take actions that the limitations of the interface suggest you should not be able to, you may be banned at any moment without warning.

 

Search for bugs and exploits, if you report them.

 

The first quote is under longer general rules while the second quote is under things you are allowed to do. Personally, I'd put the first in bold font at the top of the restrictions. Also, I'd point out underneath it that you may be rewarded for reporting such bugs/exploits, especially if it is a significant one. Then say, 'if you especially like to do this, you may wish to apply to be a Bug Tester' and then link to a forum post perhaps.

 

Make a list of official positions that's easily available under a 'Want to help MD?' link. The link could be located beside 'Logout' and 'Idle' or under the LHO button. Some of the positions could be as follows:

 

Coder: Chewett, Muratus del Mur

Bug Tester/Playtester: dst, etc.

LHO: Syrian, Eagle Eye (etc., etc.)

Forum Moderator: Grido, Burns, Change, Shemhazaj

 

and so on. Descriptions could be added under each, including ways in which one can apply. I'm a playtester in another game, and yes, there are thousands of bugs that are still not fixed. I get that not all of them can be fixed, and some of them are too minor to be fixed. When new features are being worked on, those features are the priority for the playtesters, not 5-10 year old bugs.

 

Yes, you can effectively be a playtester in MD, but it's a less public role than a forum moderator, and the ways to be one are less publicaly talked about I'd guess. If Magicduel had more official playtesters, then perhaps there would be less bugs that the coders don't know about. The coders could then prioritize the bugs as they do now, but at least they'd know about more of the significant ones faster.

 

Will I be applying? Probably not, since, like I said, there's enough to test/find bugs for in one game, nevermind two. But I personally find testing stuff rewarding, and I know from talking to people that others do as well.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Change

[Ary Endleg]

Another conflicting statement Chew.

 

Aren't we supposed to ask around and check if bug is already reported or not? In order to avoid repeated reports of same thing?

 

In bug reporting guidelines it says that, check if bug is already reported first. So by such policy is one is to ask LHO for example and LHO says: "Oh yes it's a bug, I myself reported it 2 months ago, but Chew says it's a secret bug that's why it's not listed on forum/redmine". Then you guess it, player who follows bug reporting routine won't re-report it.

 

What happens then is that you don't get to know that which you claim you should know (quote: "I have not heard about this bug for a number of years now. And why didnt I fix it when I could? Because I had not heard of it for so long, it was not in my mind to do so.").

 

 

This above wasn't the case in my situation with clicky bug, but I'm pointing out the flaw in your methods/policies regarding handling of this bugs.

[Chewett]

In bug reporting guidelines it says that, check if bug is already reported first. So by such policy is one is to ask LHO for example and LHO says: "Oh yes it's a bug, I myself reported it 2 months ago, but Chew says it's a secret bug that's why it's not listed on forum/redmine". Then you guess it, player who follows bug reporting routine won't re-report it.

Correct, then we need to change it. How do you suggest we change the bug reporting guidelines. No one actually follows them, even LHO's that rush to bug me, so im not entirely sure how effective it actually is.

[Chewett]

Another conflicting statement Chew.
 
Aren't we supposed to ask around and check if bug is already reported or not? In order to avoid repeated reports of same thing?
 
In bug reporting guidelines it says that, check if bug is already reported first. So by such policy is one is to ask LHO for example and LHO says: "Oh yes it's a bug, I myself reported it 2 months ago, but Chew says it's a secret bug that's why it's not listed on forum/redmine". Then you guess it, player who follows bug reporting routine won't re-report it.
 
What happens then is that you don't get to know that which you claim you should know (quote: "I have not heard about this bug for a number of years now. And why didnt I fix it when I could? Because I had not heard of it for so long, it was not in my mind to do so.").
 
 
This above wasn't the case in my situation with clicky bug, but I'm pointing out the flaw in your methods/policies regarding handling of this bugs.

Actually no.

The first stage

Is the bug abusive? - If you could gain significantly from using the bug, then it is not appropriate to post on the forum. These should be sent directly to bugs. See Step 4: Contacting bugs.

If its abusive, you should contact me directly.

[Ary Endleg]

How do you describe the last situation where huge majority of people that knew about didn't saw it as bug or saw anything abusive in it, it was rather viewed as feature.

[Chewett]

How do you describe the last situation where huge majority of people that knew about didn't saw it as bug or saw anything abusive in it, it was rather viewed as feature.

Do you know a huge majority knew of it? I see you, dst, saying they did, a load of people saying they didnt.

[Ary Endleg]

That's exactly your problem in here I'm talking about.

 

You don't get told such stuff. Due to how things currently are you lack such communication channel.

[Chewett]

That's exactly your problem in here I'm talking about.
 
You don't get told such stuff. Due to how things currently are you lack such communication channel.

What im saying is, How do _you_ know if everyone knew about it. From what I can see it was mostly isolated to a minority and not a majority. Iv no clue how many people knew about it.

You can say everyone knew about it, and therefore I need a better report channel, but if only a few did, then its a moot point surely?

[Ary Endleg]

Point taken.

[Change]

What about the Bug Tester thing? I'm not sure if this was tried to be done in the past, or if there are enough people in a semi-official capacity for it already, but if not, why not ask for more people? Yes, dst might not have known it was a bug (that's not her fault--you can't expect one or two people to catch everything). But if there's more people, there's more perspectives.

 

I know that it might not just be up to you if this happens, which sucks.

 

Honestly, I do agree that there doesn't seem to be too many plausible solutions for this.

[dst]

I knew it was a bug (aka not intended outcome in this situation or a side effect) BUT I treated as a feature because it WAS nice. Besides, it's harmless imo. And helpful...sometimes.

 

 

 

Offtopic: I HATE THE CONSTANT REFRESH OF THE PAGE! PREVENTS ME FROM WRITING STUFF!!!! GAAAAA!!!