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Story mode removal discussion

Sasha Lilias

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Here is the chat log from the discussion held on day 52 year 10 at the GoE.


[log=Chat log]

[21/02/15 22:14] Chewett:As some of you may know, we have planned to modify the tutorial 
[21/02/15 22:14] Chewett:This forms part of the A25 work 
[21/02/15 22:14] Chewett:Now, to modify this, we shall be removing all of story mode 
[21/02/15 22:14] Chewett:Story mode forms the basis of much of our lore, sadly this lore is not all correct 
[21/02/15 22:14] Chewett:It has been announced for a while, that you should not treat story mode as canon (aka true)
[21/02/15 22:15] Chewett:This is a needed step to create the new A25 tutorial
[21/02/15 22:16] Chewett:We are looking to reimplement it at a later date 
[21/02/15 22:16] Chewett:But once its removed, you can consider it being aded back in as "future" not even soon 
[21/02/15 22:17] Chewett:This is a drastic change, and needs a lot of coding work, mainly because everything is tied into it 
[21/02/15 22:17] Chewett:Therefore, I have been assigned to do this piece of work, Mur doesnt feel able to nicely remove it, and join everything back to it 
[21/02/15 22:17] Chewett:This means the changes will be done entirely according to my time scale 
[21/02/15 22:17] Chewett:If nothing else, it will be done around June when im "back" 
[21/02/15 22:18] Chewett:It might take anything from a couple hours, to a couple weeks/months 
[21/02/15 22:18] Chewett:We expect many things to break, mainly because everything is dependant on it 
[21/02/15 22:19] Chewett:And we will need to decide how things work, like principles, Im planning some things at the moment 
[21/02/15 22:19] Chewett:Once I start working on it, its likely to disappear quickly 
[21/02/15 22:20] Chewett:This means that, if you are wanting to do anything in story mode, I recommend you do it sooner than later
[21/02/15 22:21] Chewett:And, when I start implementing things, saying "Oh wait can I just do X" wont be heeded 
[21/02/15 22:21] Chewett:For example, keys obtained in story mode, will no longer be able to be obtained 
[21/02/15 22:21] Chewett:Furthermore, we are likely to remove all keys gained by storymode 
[21/02/15 22:22] Chewett:The MB keys gainably in story mode are really bugged 
[21/02/15 22:22] phantasm:so now areas will only be opened by WP shop? 
[21/02/15 22:22] Chewett:A large number of people have gained the key due to some bug 
[21/02/15 22:22] Chewett:Its like 80% of those holding the key attained it "somehow" 
[21/02/15 22:22] Chewett:This is an ongoing bug 
[21/02/15 22:23] Chewett:So, for example, if you want the MB keys, you will have to get it via a WP, or something 
[21/02/15 22:23] lashtal: *raises his hand* Somehow here.. 
[21/02/15 22:23] Chewett:Im considering adding more interesting things into MB 
[21/02/15 22:23] Chewett:Precisely, Loads of people "somehow" get it 
[21/02/15 22:23] Chewett:Its a really annoying bug, and I ahvent been able to track it down yet 
[21/02/15 22:23] Chewett:Mur had a simialr issue with his account before, But he cant remember how he broke it to make it trade keys 
[21/02/15 22:24] Chewett:Im working on combat ATM, so im looking into that possibility 
[21/02/15 22:24] Chewett:Since previously it was due to attacking and trading keys 
[21/02/15 22:24] Chewett:So, we will probably remove all story mode keys 
[21/02/15 22:24] Chewett:Its going to be a big job 
[21/02/15 22:24] I am Bored:The MB keys I'd hope (at least the main 2 for champions dome and the sac altar) would be open for all? 
[21/02/15 22:24] Chewett:Its going to be hard, and going to cause a lot of bugs, because its so deeply integrated into MD 
[21/02/15 22:25] Chewett:But, thats why Mur gave it to me, because he trusts me more to be able to fix it than him 
[21/02/15 22:25] Aeoshattr: (well... if you can't do it, then nobody can. We'll be here to cheer for you, Chew.) 
[21/02/15 22:26] Chewett:So, Yay for team Chew! 
[21/02/15 22:26] Chewett:There wasnt much else so say, This will be posted as an announcement later, along with any of your questions. 
[21/02/15 22:26] Chewett:If anyone has a question, Put there hand up, and we can go through one by one 
[21/02/15 22:26] I am Bored:As the current story mode will be going, and a large portion of it isn't quite true to the realm's lore, are there any plans to publish the current state of the story branches? 
[21/02/15 22:26] Asthir:Just make sure you don't remove ALL keys... WP gaine ones included :P 
[21/02/15 22:27] Chewett:Bored: Its likely to be reimplemented into MD for "The future" 
[21/02/15 22:27] Chewett:In some form where people can choose to go into story mode 
[21/02/15 22:27] Dark Demon:What will happen to those in tutorial or those in the middle of story mode, while it gets removed? 
[21/02/15 22:27] Chewett:Possibly also not stopping them from playing, since thats a tad annoying 
[21/02/15 22:27] Chewett:Asthir: I have done this kind of key removal before, it will be fine 
[21/02/15 22:28] Chewett:DD: Their accounts will be mauled beyond recognition
[21/02/15 22:28] Chewett:I havent decided what will happen 
[21/02/15 22:28] Chewett:Likely they will just be chucked out 
[21/02/15 22:28] Chewett:Of story mode, into normal playing 
[21/02/15 22:29] Chewett:I can probably code it to give them all the right keys, etc 
[21/02/15 22:29] Chewett:Or, their account will be mauled by bears 
[21/02/15 22:29] Chewett:Either or 
[21/02/15 22:29] Chewett:Couldnt say atm 
[21/02/15 22:29] I am Bored:After the main work is complete, the best-case senario would be to stick them back at the start, with a clean slate.
[21/02/15 22:29] Chewett:I dont know what the best case is, because I dont know how it will work
[21/02/15 22:30] Chewett:So stating one or another, at the moment, is foolish 
[21/02/15 22:30] BFH the WHITE:when story mode gets removed, how long will it take to implement all the other a25 changes? and in terms of completion, which will be the percent completed for a25 after the removal of story mode? 
[21/02/15 22:30] Chewett:Currently im imagining them doing tutoriall, up until the shade gives them the cube, them stopping it 
[21/02/15 22:30] Dark Demon:A temporary coded "shortcut" that automatically bypasses story mode after the tutorial should be made. 
[21/02/15 22:30] Asthir:This doesn't imply a "game reset", right? Stats and other things will remain as they will be at that point? 
[21/02/15 22:30] Chewett:So it would probably chuck them into that state 
[21/02/15 22:30] Aeoshattr: (shade giving the cube is pretty important methinks) 
[21/02/15 22:30] Dark Demon:Rather than manually plucking each player out 
[21/02/15 22:30] Chewett:STOP TALKING A SECOND 
[21/02/15 22:31] Chewett:BFH: Story mode is a very important change, it will let the new tutorial be slotted into its place, I dont know how much more work is needed after that, im working on it bit by bit 
[21/02/15 22:31] Chewett:DD: I dont know how the code works, I cannot comment what is the "best solution", and unless you know how it works... 
[21/02/15 22:31] Chewett:Asthir: We dont do game resets :) 
[21/02/15 22:32] I am Bored:We have, once. 
[21/02/15 22:32] Chewett:As a note to everyone, While its great to hear people suggest code solutions, they dont help. 
[21/02/15 22:32] I am Bored:I believe it was stated though that that would be the last one. 
[21/02/15 22:32] Dark Demon:Ah yes, I still remember that shiny red button 
[21/02/15 22:33] Chewett:Mainly because, You dont know how MD is structured, I know this sounds a bit rude, but its MUCH much much, more helpful to tell me how you think it should work, from your point of view 
[21/02/15 22:33] Chewett:And not trying to convert it into some idea of how MD works, coding wise, Again not trying to be rude here :) 
[21/02/15 22:33] Chewett:We had one, once, before most of your times.
[21/02/15 22:33] Chewett:Unless you have an account in the 10k range or so 
[21/02/15 22:33] Chewett:After that it was agreed no more, ever 
[21/02/15 22:34] Chewett:Its going to make it a lot harder for me, but we are not doing one
[21/02/15 22:35] I am Bored:I believe what Asthir was referring to was more of a partial reset, resetting just the parts relating to the tutorial and story mode.
[21/02/15 22:35] Chewett:Asthir, clarification?
[21/02/15 22:35] Asthir:IAB is right :P 
[21/02/15 22:35] Asthir:Everything gained or lost as a resut of story mode 
[21/02/15 22:35] Chewett:So, if you are in story mode, you will be thrown out of it 
[21/02/15 22:36] Chewett:where you are, as you are 
[21/02/15 22:36] Chewett:The page will just disappear 
[21/02/15 22:36] Chewett:No story will be present 
[21/02/15 22:36] lashtal:I have a question, sorry if was asked already: is story mode content -as we know it- to be considered "wrong"? I mean, like lore and stuff? 
[21/02/15 22:37] Chewett:As announced many years ago, Story mode Lore is not true 
[21/02/15 22:37] Chewett:Some of it may be true 
[21/02/15 22:37] Aeoshattr: (Yes and no. It's agreed that it shouldn't be considered canon, but some chunks of stuff you experience in the tutorial/story mode/ beginning of the game are "bits of truth") 
[21/02/15 22:37] Chewett:But its not announced what is, and isnt true 
[21/02/15 22:38] Aeoshattr:If I may butt in... will there be an effort to write the true lore of MD after t he removal of story mode? Would it be allowed, encouraged for such an effort to take place? 
[21/02/15 22:38] Rophs:The lore is wrong. 
[21/02/15 22:38] *Nimrodel*:Mur will go psycho if you'll mention lore again :P 
[21/02/15 22:38] *Nimrodel*:We've seen him lose it on the forums plenty of times till now :P 
[21/02/15 22:38] lashtal:Thank you. I would probably open a thread asking people to save their story. I found some interesting stuff in there so far... 
[21/02/15 22:38] Chewett:That isnt part of the conversation, Nor I couldnt reply for Mur
[21/02/15 22:39] Dark Demon:I still never understood why Mur hated old lore like Helen Wasp, etc...? 
[21/02/15 22:39] Chewett:The lore is wrong, becuase someone just made it up, and it goes against what he previously wanted 
[21/02/15 22:40] Chewett:Its to be treated as a story, nothing more. 
[21/02/15 22:40] Chewett:There are indeed facts in there 
[21/02/15 22:40] Aeoshattr: (Alright, I'll see if I can discuss this withMur then) 
[21/02/15 22:40] Azkhael:Mur had intended for a rather specific range of symbolisms in the game. "Ancient lore" is an alleged misdirection in relation to those. 
[21/02/15 22:40] Chewett: (Enjoy him exploding :P) 
[21/02/15 22:40] Chewett:Indeed 
[21/02/15 22:41] Aeoshattr: (I'll wear a safety helmet ^^)
[21/02/15 22:41] Chewett:Does anyone have any comments about the removal of story gained keys? 
[21/02/15 22:41] Asthir:I hate it :P
[21/02/15 22:41] *Nimrodel*:umm I dont think that should be there... 
[21/02/15 22:41] Aeoshattr:Hm. Would it be perhaps reasonable for players to gain keys once affiliated to a land? Or will they just all be available in the WP shop? 
[21/02/15 22:42] *Nimrodel*:it adds an rp element to the stuff. I liked it that way. 
[21/02/15 22:42] *Nimrodel*:but there is of course the whole spoiler thingy *rolls eyes* 
[21/02/15 22:42] Chewett:Necro had the idea of giving keys based on time in the land 
[21/02/15 22:42] Aeoshattr:Ah, alright! That's pretty much what I meant. 
[21/02/15 22:43] I am Bored:A large portion of the story mode outcomes, that I know of, as long as you don't die, end up with champions dome and wasps altar unlocked, my view is that those two places be public, rather than 
[21/02/15 22:43] *Nimrodel*:I believe keys should be available in the wp shop too 
[21/02/15 22:43] I am Bored:even the wish-shop only mode they are in currently. 
[21/02/15 22:43] Dark Demon:Thanks *nods* 
[21/02/15 22:44] Chewett:Its something I am considering, unlocking the land as you grow in it. 
[21/02/15 22:44] Chewett:I havent decided one way or another, although it gives large benefits to some lands 
[21/02/15 22:44] Chewett:E.g. who cares about going to MB to get loyalty and such, they have nothing cool 
[21/02/15 22:44] I am Bored:There's both a sac altar and an item dispatch point on the wasps altar side.' 
[21/02/15 22:44] Guardian of Root 24230:I do think a key to Champions Challenge should be there... (Though is it already?) 
[21/02/15 22:44] I am Bored:The champions challenge key is not in the wish shop] 
[21/02/15 22:45] I am Bored:THat's a chapter 3 key. 
[21/02/15 22:45] *Nimrodel*:access tot he angien shrine is pretty awesome if you ask me >> 
[21/02/15 22:45] Guardian of Root 24230: (Didn't think so) 
[21/02/15 22:45] Chewett:Thats something a little different Nim 
[21/02/15 22:45] Asthir:They might if stuff gets implemented? Angiens are cool... A "would-be" puzzle might also be cool in MB 
[21/02/15 22:45] Chewett:Any other questions? 
[21/02/15 22:45] Guardian of Root 24230:I was getting a cup of coffee so excuse me if this as been asked. 
[21/02/15 22:46] Guardian of Root 24230:What happens about the stat gain received from story? 
[21/02/15 22:46] I am Bored:Any chance you're willing to explain a couple of your possible ideas for dealing with principle distribution with storymode gone? 
[21/02/15 22:46] Chewett:It goes . 
[21/02/15 22:46] Chewett:Asnwering sasha first. 
[21/02/15 22:46] *Nimrodel*:That stat gain is kinda useless anyway :P 
[21/02/15 22:46] Azkhael:The story mode stat gain is rather pitiful for most. 
[21/02/15 22:46] Chewett:Stat gain, it goes. So if you want to gain stats, advance sooner than later 
[21/02/15 22:46] Guardian of Root 24230:So how will one gain their base stats? 
[21/02/15 22:46] Asthir:Depends on when you got it, Nim 
[21/02/15 22:46] Azkhael:Base acquisition of principles aside. 
[21/02/15 22:46] Chewett:Like everyone else.. sacraficing, etc 
[21/02/15 22:47] Guardian of Root 24230:No no 
[21/02/15 22:47] *Nimrodel*:i think mp3 stat gain should stay.. 
[21/02/15 22:47] *Nimrodel*:just to give them basic stats to start with. 
[21/02/15 22:47] I am Bored:Principles are not useless, and you get the vast majority of your principle points from story mode. 
[21/02/15 22:47] Chewett:Thats the plan 
[21/02/15 22:47] Chewett:Starting them on a specific number of stats after killing the shades from story mode 
[21/02/15 22:47] Guardian of Root 24230:Each story mode allows you to pick one extra principle for your MP. 
[21/02/15 22:47] Chewett:well, giving them X stats 
[21/02/15 22:48] Guardian of Root 24230:How will they choose what they want to master or will it be random? 
[21/02/15 22:48] Chewett:Once you have advanced, it would let you pick one more principle 
[21/02/15 22:48] Chewett:Simple box in the story mode page, and then stats of what you need to advance 
[21/02/15 22:48] I am Bored:Yes, but the distribution of those points is heavily dependent upon how you went through story mode. 
[21/02/15 22:48] Guardian of Root 24230:So the option to acquire principles of your own choosing will remain? 
[21/02/15 22:48] Chewett:Yes, and to get more you then just sacrafice creatures 
[21/02/15 22:49] Guardian of Root 24230:Ah alright. Just as this would affect tokens as well remember. 
[21/02/15 22:49] Chewett:This is all, what is currently planned 
[21/02/15 22:49] Guardian of Root 24230:Thought you were saying you'd just "give" them random principles. 
[21/02/15 22:49] Chewett:Things possibly might change a little 
[21/02/15 22:49] Chewett:That doesnt seem entirely fair 
[21/02/15 22:49] I am Bored:It has a pretty big effect on tokens, which is why the principles need to be distributed in some way. 
[21/02/15 22:49] Guardian of Root 24230:No, exactly. 
[21/02/15 22:50] Azkhael:I'd actually deem story mode's principle points (though not the choice of principles) rather insignificant, I am Bored. 
[21/02/15 22:50] Guardian of Root 24230:Which is why principles should always be allowed to be chosen by the player. IMO 
[21/02/15 22:50] Guardian of Root 24230:Az, it's not about the points. 
[21/02/15 22:50] Azkhael:Read the parenthesis. 
[21/02/15 22:50] Asthir:Points gained in priciples through story mode are based on % of what you already have, no? 
[21/02/15 22:50] Guardian of Root 24230:Its about actually CHOOSING which principles to have and work with. 
[21/02/15 22:50] I am Bored:In my eyes, it is about the points. 
[21/02/15 22:51] Azkhael:As I said, read the parenthesis, sasha. 
[21/02/15 22:51] Guardian of Root 24230: (Ah sorry, didn't see that part :P) 
[21/02/15 22:51] Azkhael: :P 
[21/02/15 22:51] I am Bored:And yes, they are based on the % you already have, the exact part of the story you are in, as well as your meditation time.
[21/02/15 22:51] Asthir:Then the points gained there are quite a big deal, if you maxed your principles before advancing through story mode
[21/02/15 22:52] Assira the Black:Hmm.. 
[21/02/15 22:52] Guardian of Root 24230:Though we should perhaps be thinking how the new player would be... 
[21/02/15 22:52] I am Bored:And the meditation time has a significant effect on it, as a full 24 hour meditation is a 2x boost in stats.
[21/02/15 22:53] Azkhael:Tokens aside, it is still rather easy to get 1000 points or more in any given principle through saccing. 
[21/02/15 22:54] lashtal:I just hope principles will have their context. I wouldn't just throw them on the table without proper context. 
[21/02/15 22:54] I am Bored:There are many ways to play MD, not all of them revolve around combat. I've only rarely sacrificed creatures, and, while my stats definitely show that, they don't have to. 
[21/02/15 22:54] Guardian of Root 24230:Indeed IAB 
[21/02/15 22:54] I am Bored:How many times have inner magic spells been cast Chewett? 
[21/02/15 22:54] Chewett:Unrelated. Next question. 
[21/02/15 22:55] I am Bored:Other than tokens, those are the only things I know of that use principle points. 
[21/02/15 22:55] Azkhael:That seems like the most likely initial situation, alas, lashtal. 
[21/02/15 22:55] Azkhael:Though I certainly wouldn't want it to be so in the long run. 
[21/02/15 22:56] Chewett:You think that the principles are currently treated well? 
[21/02/15 22:57] Azkhael:No. 
[21/02/15 22:57] Chewett:"Hey you have just started this game, here is 9 pages worth of material to read, pick these principles, They are uber important" 
[21/02/15 22:57] lashtal:I think we're using 5% of their potential. 
[21/02/15 22:57] Aeoshattr:^ 
[21/02/15 22:57] Chewett:"BE really careful, reload and lose these principles, but pick now!" 
[21/02/15 22:57] Aeoshattr: (what Chew said) 
[21/02/15 22:57] lashtal:But they were, imo, well introduced. 
[21/02/15 22:57] Azkhael:The descriptions, themselves, are quite interesting. 
[21/02/15 22:57] Azkhael:But their actual usage ingame? No. 
[21/02/15 22:57] Chewett:Howso lashtal? How are they well introduced? 
[21/02/15 22:57] Asthir:Personally, I don't see how having more points in one principle affects the power of tokens, for instance. I can't speak of inner magic spells. 
[21/02/15 22:57] lashtal:The story supported their choice, or at least hinted it 
[21/02/15 22:57] Dark Demon:We aren't using any of their potential, lash 
[21/02/15 22:57] Chewett:Iv done tutorial a lot of times, its literally "pick some of these" 
[21/02/15 22:58] lashtal:But the picking is at crucial point of the story 
[21/02/15 22:58] Chewett:They are not even led into, you dont get told how they work 
[21/02/15 22:58] Dark Demon:Apart from a paid feature, tokens 
[21/02/15 22:58] Chewett:No, picking doesnt affect the story at all 
[21/02/15 22:58] Dark Demon:which is related to combat (something less than 20% are interested in) 
[21/02/15 22:58] Chewett:Literally, you do story, and get "rewards" and pick some random principles 
[21/02/15 22:58] Azkhael:Some read the principle descriptions at the onset of the decision - others do not. 
[21/02/15 22:59] Chewett:So, those that read it, end up deciding based on which ones they like 
[21/02/15 22:59] Azkhael:If they did, the descriptions could be quite a good introduction. 
[21/02/15 22:59] Azkhael:If they didn't, it is quite the out of context choice, indeed. 
[21/02/15 22:59] I am Bored:I actually didn't read the principle descriptions until recently... 
[21/02/15 22:59] Chewett:You dont get introduced how they work, etc, why you are picking them 
[21/02/15 22:59] Dark Demon:Random question to people: Am I the only one who's happy with their principle choice and doesn't wish for them to get changed? 
[21/02/15 22:59] Chewett:It doesnt even say "Oh these are your characters principles" 
[21/02/15 22:59] lashtal:I don't know, maybe I was overthinking, and assuming something that wasn't there. But it's what hooked me in MD :-p 
[21/02/15 22:59] Azkhael:I am quite happy with my own choices, DD. 
[21/02/15 22:59] Chewett:It just goes "ok here is a shade, here is a cube, pick some primciples, READ CAREFULLY" 
[21/02/15 23:00] Azkhael:lashtal, had you read the principle description on the main page at the time you picked them? 
[21/02/15 23:00] lashtal:Yes, many times. 
[21/02/15 23:00] Chewett:It would be cool if it said "these are your characters traits, as you level up they learn more" but it doesnt relate them to your character at all 
[21/02/15 23:00] Azkhael:After you read them, they do, indeed, seem to relate to the story on many levels. 
[21/02/15 23:00] Chewett:It just presents them and lets you pick, without actually telling you about them 
[21/02/15 23:00] Azkhael:So I agree with you. 
[21/02/15 23:00] Dark Demon:One thing I REALLY REALLY REALLY disliked about principles was the fact that they aren't written in english 
[21/02/15 23:00] Azkhael:If, however, you did not read their descriptions on the main page [...] 
[21/02/15 23:00] Orvid:They are in english. 
[21/02/15 23:00] Azkhael:Then it mostly seems out of context information, I'd venture. 
[21/02/15 23:00] Dark Demon:They were in RO 
[21/02/15 23:00] Orvid:Originally, yes. 
[21/02/15 23:00] Azkhael:They are in english. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Dark Demon:"illumini", "innoculi", "elementor' and what not 
[21/02/15 23:01] lashtal:Not entirely. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Azkhael:You can google the odd word, if you don't know them. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Orvid:Those are internal names, those are never displayed publically. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Guardian of Root 24230:And is it hard to work out what they mean? 
[21/02/15 23:01] Guardian of Root 24230:No. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Lania:That is not romanian... 
[21/02/15 23:01] Azkhael:But I can at least recall it being fully understandable 6 years ago. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Azkhael:Lania is correct. 
[21/02/15 23:01] Guardian of Root 24230:^ 
[21/02/15 23:01] Dark Demon:Last I remembered, they were like that and I actually picked a wrong one because of it 
[21/02/15 23:01] Dark Demon:I heard someone saying it was RO, not sure, cause I don't speak RO 
[21/02/15 23:02] Orvid:And those names are not displayed anywhere, I've sent multiple characters through both tutorial and story mode recently :P 
[21/02/15 23:02] Guardian of Root 24230:T'is Latin 
[21/02/15 23:02] Chewett:There is, a bug I reported with the principles 
[21/02/15 23:02] Azkhael:Indeed, sasha. 
[21/02/15 23:02] lashtal:The sacrificing altars display principles in a weird language, perhaps RO. But not the main page, not that I remember
[21/02/15 23:02] Asthir:Yes, the first time they show up in story mode, Time = Timp. 
[21/02/15 23:02] Chewett:Causing some issues 
[21/02/15 23:02] Dark Demon:Of course, by "wrong one" I mean one which I initially didn't want to pick, but have now seen how it suits me 
[21/02/15 23:02] Chewett:With picking stuff, etc 
[21/02/15 23:02] Azkhael:Back on track, however [...] 
[21/02/15 23:03] Dark Demon:I think "entropei" got me time irrc 
[21/02/15 23:03] Dark Demon:iirc* 
[21/02/15 23:03] Azkhael:Reading the main page descriptions is not necessarily intuitive for a new player. 
[21/02/15 23:03] Azkhael:So it is likely many players' first contact with the principles -was- in picking them. 
[21/02/15 23:03] Azkhael:And in that context, they were, indeed, a mostly outside-context choice. 
[21/02/15 23:03] Orvid:So, the net result that we can agree on is that both the way principles are distributed, and what they are used for needs revision. 
[21/02/15 23:04] MaGoHi:as new player i can say something, i picked principles after what felt right not really because of the description
[21/02/15 23:05] Azkhael:I went to check - the altars are in RO. 
[21/02/15 23:05] lashtal:You're probably right, Azkhael.. I always included that in MD's attitude "secrets hidden in plain sight" though, but I guess a new player cant just figure that. 
[21/02/15 23:05] Orvid:Random question I don't really expect an answer to: What is the distribution of the current principles in the realm? Ideally they would be roughly equal, but is that really the case? 
[21/02/15 23:06] lashtal:That's interesting Orvid, why don't you/we start a poll? 
[21/02/15 23:06] Chewett:[w] >= 0; norm (w) == 1 
[21/02/15 23:06] Dark Demon:It is not equal 
[21/02/15 23:06] Azkhael:I do agree with you that a sufficiently curious player would make the choices within a very appropriate context - but I don't believe that can be expected of players as a rule. 
[21/02/15 23:06] Dark Demon:lashtal, you had divided them up in their respective lands if I recall correctly
[21/02/15 23:06] lashtal:I did. 
[21/02/15 23:07] Orvid:We've got a wookie, we don't need a poll. Perhaps limit the query to just the players currently online? 
[21/02/15 23:07] lashtal:Divided by what the altars in the 5 lands return once you sac something 
[21/02/15 23:07] Guardian of Root 24230:Mine are all based upon tokens. 
[21/02/15 23:08] Chewett:Any more questions about story mode? 
[21/02/15 23:08] lashtal:Mine are based on myself. They define my character and some traits of my person very well. 
[21/02/15 23:09] Guardian of Root 24230:You can make any of the principles work for you as each one makes up who we are or something around us. 
[21/02/15 23:09] Orvid:The current flow of the tutorial will stay, right?
[21/02/15 23:09] Chewett:Im not sure what that means Bored 
[21/02/15 23:10] Orvid:Will players be doing the same things in the tutorial that they currently are, or will there be adjustments to it? 
[21/02/15 23:10] Chewett:revamping the tutorial is an A25 project 
[21/02/15 23:10] lashtal:Yes sasha, just like dominant and recessive traits 
[21/02/15 23:10] Chewett:Likely, they will do things up to the shade giving you the cube, then they will be able to do the A25 tutorial 
[21/02/15 23:10] Chewett:But that will be free flow 
[21/02/15 23:11] Orvid:The cube is where I consider the current tutorial to end so, no, no changes to the tutorial as it stands. 
[21/02/15 23:11] Asthir:The mini quests in the Paper Cabin. Are they related to story mode and will disappear with it? 
[21/02/15 23:11] Chewett:Aeo? Iv found a key problem with your quest
[21/02/15 23:12] Chewett:I can complete it now, FYI, as can anyone 
[21/02/15 23:12] Dark Demon:Indeed... 
[21/02/15 23:12] Aeoshattr:I'm here. 
[21/02/15 23:12] Dark Demon:I think I know 
[21/02/15 23:12] Dark Demon:Let me test 
[21/02/15 23:12] Aeoshattr:Well, I know people can check the Fictionist's house 
[21/02/15 23:13] Chewett:Yeah... so they just do that, bingo 
[21/02/15 23:13] Aeoshattr:But it still involves all the effort of going there, coming back to their assigned scene and doing that multiple times for each of the 5 days 
[21/02/15 23:13] Asthir:Takes a day to get there >.> 
[21/02/15 23:13] Intrigue: *facepalms* I didn't think of that either 
[21/02/15 23:13] Intrigue: *laughs* no worries Aeo, I'll do it the hard way 
[21/02/15 23:13] Aeoshattr:It might be easier for natives of the East 
[21/02/15 23:13] Chewett:Bingo 
[21/02/15 23:13] Aeoshattr:I don't really mind HOW people do it. 
[21/02/15 23:13] Chewett:East land always get advantages 
[21/02/15 23:14] Orvid:Significantly easier. It's 40 AP per step for everyone else. 
[21/02/15 23:14] Aeoshattr:It's not meant to be too difficult, for now at least. 
[21/02/15 23:14] Chewett:Meeting over unless anyone else wants to ask anything 
[21/02/15 23:14] Chewett:RIP Story Mode 
[21/02/15 23:14] Aeoshattr:The effort will come when my algorithm is implemented. Huehuehue 
[21/02/15 23:14] lashtal:Thank you 
[21/02/15 23:14] Asthir:I asked something :P 
[21/02/15 23:15] Azkhael:A moment, please (on phone with a secretary) . 
[21/02/15 23:15] Chewett:Ask again then? 
[21/02/15 23:15] Chewett:Shame people killed off molly, they could revive it :P 
[21/02/15 23:15] Asthir:Are the mini quests in the PC related to story mode and will they disappear with it, if they are? 
[21/02/15 23:15] Chewett:mini quests in PC? 
[21/02/15 23:15] Chewett:I wasnt aware there were any quests in the PC...? 
[21/02/15 23:15] Chewett:Please clarify 
[21/02/15 23:16] Asthir:The ones which begin there. Berserker? 
[21/02/15 23:16] Chewett:They are entirely unrelated 
[21/02/15 23:16] Asthir:LR Gurads 
[21/02/15 23:16] Dark Demon:The Berserker's way quest and LR guard quests involve the PC 
[21/02/15 23:16] Chewett:If you mean beserkers way quest, etc 
[21/02/15 23:16] Asthir:Yup, those 
[21/02/15 23:16] lashtal:Nightshade quest.. *grins*
[21/02/15 23:17] Azkhael:The PC likely cannot be removed.
[21/02/15 23:19] Chewett:Ok then, im probably going to head off then?
[21/02/15 23:19] Azkhael:I may be mistaken, but I believe the appearance of the Marble Dale Park [...] 
[21/02/15 23:20] Asthir:What, that's it? No cake? 
[21/02/15 23:20] Azkhael:Is subject to some variation according to story mode. 
[21/02/15 23:20] Azkhael:What will become of that? 
[21/02/15 23:20] Chewett:It will be the default view 
[21/02/15 23:20] Azkhael:Alright, thank you. 
[21/02/15 23:20] Orvid:No Carnival :( 
[21/02/15 23:21] Asthir:Well then... I'll be off to story mode, to get whatever bonuses I still can :P 
[21/02/15 23:21] Asthir:June, right? 
[21/02/15 23:21] Azkhael:Since I was distracted on the phone, what was settled for principles as chosen? 
[21/02/15 23:22] Asthir:Nothing settled. It's to be thought of, as I understood.
[21/02/15 23:25] Chewett:I havent decided whta we will do with the principles 
[21/02/15 23:26] Azkhael:The descriptions are unlikely to change.
[21/02/15 23:26] Azkhael:And if they do, it won't be a consequence of story mode's removal.
[21/02/15 23:26] lashtal:Let's just make a round table about that. Decide how they should pop in, if they would be reset on character's death, possibly other uses for them? 
[21/02/15 23:27] lashtal:Not now, sometime. 
[21/02/15 23:27] Azkhael:That'd be optimal, I imagine, as is.
[21/02/15 23:27] Asthir:Reset on death, probably not. Unless you lose whatever knowledge you might have gained, MD-wise
[21/02/15 23:28] Chewett:I think we will entirely change the principle descriptions 
[21/02/15 23:28] Azkhael:The integration of player knowledge with character stats is an interesting point against it, in the grand scheme of things, but I doubt that discussion is to be undertaken right now. 
[21/02/15 23:28] Chewett:Since this guy Azkhael claims we wont :P 
[21/02/15 23:29] Chewett:As a note, be careful what you "claim" when you stand from non authoritive position :) 
[21/02/15 23:29] Chewett:The last time Mur caught someone claiming a load of stuff, he purposely changed it all so they were wrong 
[21/02/15 23:29] Chewett:As a word of warning :)


I have removed parts that were not of the topic to clear it up a bit.

Edited by Sasha Lilias
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  • 3 weeks later...

Any heads up on what will this tutorial cover?


I'm guessing that big chunks of my tutorial campaign quest will now be redundant, should I schedule its removal and possibly make an alternative from scratch or something can be salvaged?

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my eyes hurt, my brain explodes, apparently i have increasingly big issues with long texts, but i had to read this log :)

I will speak in parallel to chew not necessarily continuing or answering to what he said. We are both planning this migration and nothing i say here should be considered in contradiction to what chew said or plans to do, as his plans are from what i understand also "under construction".


I can't do this change myself... its some sort of blockage, poetically speaking MD doesn't let me do them, it needs a fresh mind doing them, i am way too entangled in the original plans to be able to plan their extermination. I believe my role here is much much better aimed to assist than to do the actual changes. 


Principles will not vanish from md, they will be instead set free so that they can be introduced in a much more meaningful way. Principles remain a big part of what md represents and as they are now, in my view, they remained "under construction" since year one.


Long ago we talked about factions..but back then it was not ready to implement such a thing. the new md beginning will be a totally different one, that will be a lot more coherent in the current md reality. The gap created by the suddenly ending story and the filters set in story mode, are killing md slowly. ANYTHING is better than the current story mode. However, the story is a big aspect of how md is seen first time you start it, and a while back, in an attempt to start md "directly" in mp2/illusions, was a total failure. Somehow this needs to be fixed in A25, and new things need to be introduced in order to make it appealing for the newcommers. I wish to keep current storymode as a side quest..but this will depend entirely on Chew if it will be possible or not. I am willing to completely sacrifice the huge work done for the story mode, the artworks, the beautiful ideas, the story itself...just to give md that bit of freedom it needs to continue to evolve.


It is as if i am cutting a limb or two and hoping they will grow back "better".


Technically, the changes needed to remove storymode are not THAT big, but removing them without destroying most of it is a very very hard task. Back then, i never thought that story will be removed..but i also was thinking of md as a mostly singleplayer game (lol). 


I think the timing is perfect... its been TEN years..ten full years...afterall many things changed in ten years and many will change...but without story and without the filters forced by storymode, they will change faster and healthier. 


Talking about how things will be after this change is useless in my opinion, because many things will become more clear only once me or chew will face them. One thing is certain, there is no turning back after this. MD will either explode or implode.


Back in the beginning, i was just talking about principles, describing some, but most of all putting the bricks for the principle concept...unseen forces that govern the mechanics of how things work. Now after a long and meaningful learnig time in md, i also know how to use them. I am yet uncertain if this change will be good, but i know for sure its needed and md is stuck without it.


All the awesome things chew or me do in md, are mainly aimed to the older players, people that survived the story mode. The new players are abandoned in a part of md that was done many many years ago. This kills  md because its supply of new characters is cut from the start. The world of online games changed dramatically, the mentality of people changed, we need to adapt. The creative and most intriguing part here will be to keep md values presented in a form that is easier to digest by "already trained" players, people that are used to certain gameplay and lack the patience to try something totally different. I don't plan to change md into something more similar to other games, i just plan to make it more "world" friendly at first , so that more can get closer to the personal experience md can become for them.


Wish you luck and inspiration chewy :)

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I must admit, part of me is slightly worried that, should the creative ideas deviate too far from the original story mode - or game in general - then, it may be what kills MD, rather than reviving it.

As with anything new and 'untested' you can never be too sure if it will work or not. Destroying story mode - the introduction to a deep and quite complex game - and re-creating it could be the best thing you've ever done...or the worst.


I trust both what you and Chew are doing, as do most people I'd say, but there are a lot of big changes happening at once, if you change it too much...you might lose your oldest, most loyal players.


It sounds like you're doing it already but, all I'd say is, keep to the roots and ensure that these changes are in the best interest of both older and newer characters. 


This isn't a criticism, just my thoughts on things. I apprehensively look forward to seeing the changes.

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