Citizenship Tab

[Grido]

I think that you (Mur) agreed with something i said in the Kings thread, about not having to obey the leader of the land, but pledging to the land rather than the leader of said land....

but you've put at the bottom of the tab;
"By submiting this form you agree to obey the laws of the land you selected and obey its ruler."

I don't agree to "obey" the leader, and i think you agreed with the point i made about it in the other thread, so could this be changed please?




As a side note, since this is work in progress section, anyone else with comments/issues, post here?

[Jubaris]

well interpret it as: to be citizen of the kingdom of Loreroot (example) you must follow the laws that King made, if you dont, you won't be considered citizen of Kingdom of Loreroot, you can still be there tho, playing an outcast, rebel, disident...

[Metal Bunny]

Well, obviously, I agree.
And this time, it has absolutely nothing to do with the leader.

Take any random leader, any random, supposed powerful king, with a strong mandate.
One could still be a citizen without following the laws and rules of the land, or more specifically, of the king.
One could be pro-slavery, like in America, before Lincoln. Imagine, if you will, that I was a wealthy slave owner from the south. Three generations in, I am a true blood American.
Then, all of a sudden, civil war breaks out and I refuse to follow the new laws that ban slavery.
But I'm still a citizen of America, no?
I fight for what I believe is right, or in this case, more profitable, no?
I disobey the leader, but I am still a citizen.

A clash over laws and what one perceives as best for the land should not and does not automatically remove one's citizenship. At most, it makes one a pariah or prisoner, if the law or king is popular, but a hero when the law or king is very unpopular.
But one would still be a citizen.

Also, what if one person completely identifies himself as a citizen of a land, in this case GG, but simply because of one stupid law, or disobedience, he is stripped of his citizenship. Then what? Should he apply to LR, MB or NC? Nonsense; those lands are so different that the person, even though he still committed a small crime, like, pee on the GG bridge, would still identify himself as a GG citizen.
Just because he peed on the GG bridge he can't be a citizen? Even if someone removed his citizenship, he would still consider himself to be a citizen of GG, mainly because he completely dislikes how alltogether different all the other lands are, and most importantly; he still cares for the land GG as a whole.

Laws and kings are not the land as a whole.

Identifying with the nature of the land and the totality of the population, culture as well as having an affection or good intentions for the land as a whole, that's what makes someone a citizen in my opinion.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Metal Bunny

[Kafuuka]

It seems useful to have a historical perspective. I'm no historian and there have been lots of different rules. There is one system that comes to mind though. People gained citizenship by:
a. birth -> this is difficult in MD which features lots of outsiders (different plane, universe or what you call it?)
b. gift/pardon from a sovereign
c. living in a country for 5 years
You lost citizenship if you did not appear at your trial after an offense.

Loosing citizenship implied you were no longer protected by laws. ie. Someone could kill you in plain daylight and walk away, no questions asked.
Back in the day people didn't have any political rights, except the 'we stake our king on pitchforks if he raises taxes again' rights. Unless you put a trade ban on those giant forks, you can't take away those rights anyway. People also payed taxes, especially during war.

This seems quite like what's mentioned in these quotes:

[quote]
what about this:
- king can allow new citizens in based on their intention letter
- king can kick people out of the land (remove citizenship) only if they did something against the land. That allows people to be part of a land but also be against its leader and be immune to revenge on this reason, unless they do somethign wrong for the land itself (land image, military, treason, abuse, etc)

in other words, citizenship is gained by making the king accept you, but cant be removed same way
[/quote]

[quote]
There will always be people against the leadership.. ALWAYS.
There are two options that i can see:
1. To force by my rule the kings to accept within their lands also those opposed to them as long as they prove to be _LOYAL TO THE LAND_
2. To use No Mans Land as a outcast land for all those banished from their lands, basicaly an outpost for takeover attempts and political hits.
[/quote]

There are a couple of more complex things that could be added. People that had their citizenship removed could be labeled as such instead of 'no citizenship'. Those ex citizens should have the option of joining a rebel force or to request amnesty in another country or even be pardoned. Imo it makes more sense to overthrow kings with the support of the citizens and banished people. Not more nor less and without the ex citizen and free spirit distinction, that would be difficult to enforce.

[awiiya]

About this time is when Factions would be incredibly convenient. Then we wouldn't have to worry about the birth thing; people could choose in which land they wanted to be born.

Personally I think that Factions should be a reworking of Alliances. To make two systems to group players is... not so useful. Why not just use the alliances we already have as the framework for Factions?

Or why not even make an entire land the Faction? The Faction of GG, Loreroot, Necro, and MB? And new people could choose which land they wanted to be a citizen of.

Anyways.

Awi

[Liberty4life]

i would like to ask question of technical nature.... so when one becomes citizen of one land... does it says that he is member of that land like it says when ya join one ally, it automatically associates ya with its land, so is this same case with citizenship? so if answer is yes then citizens of land get same regen as alliances of that same land... so only difference is that citizens then have everything as player in alliance has except alliance bonus (there are two bonuses one bonus is from land and other is from ally which is based on how much players of ally are online) and ally chat and ally badge, i think this is pretty much fair and i guess citizens get new flag which indicates belonging to one land like atm have pirates and knights order

[dragonrider7]

[quote name='Grido' date='19 October 2009 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1255890930' post='45100']
I think that you (Mur) agreed with something i said in the Kings thread, about not having to obey the leader of the land, but pledging to the land rather than the leader of said land....

but you've put at the bottom of the tab;
"By submiting this form you agree to obey the laws of the land you selected and obey its ruler."

I don't agree to "obey" the leader, and i think you agreed with the point i made about it in the other thread, so could this be changed please?




As a side note, since this is work in progress section, anyone else with comments/issues, post here?
[/quote]

I agree with you!! ........ rules are always there.....but it is up to us whether to follow it.............. a land should have all kinds of people (theives, rebels, murderers etc) ...if everyone agree and obey the laws then there wont be anything interesting in the land :-) .....this is what the rider's says....


btw....what is the law for the sky :-) ?

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Liberty4life' date='19 October 2009 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1255954513' post='45189']
i guess citizens get new flag which indicates belonging to one land like atm have pirates and knights order
[/quote]

That would totally defeat the purpose of having normal country flags in the first place. Not everyone is meant to have a special flag :/

[Muratus del Mur]

First of all keep in min is a new thing so dont expect it to be just fine from first try.

The king and its subjects will adapt to whatever tehnical ways i will be able to construct. I am not sure myself what the king will be able to do or what the citizen "hardcoded" rights will be. This is something to be decided at developing time while taking into consideration all neede aspects.

One thing for example, other citizens of that land will be able to vote others in or out. Sort of a gang mentality, but for now i think a land should be "a BIG group of people that agree on a common purpose." The words big and purpose are the keys here. Purpose is of course the land well being, while the size of the people will determine the overall importance and power of that land.

So far, the way i develop the citizenship interface, the peple of a land will have a lot to say about new citizens. The king will have power, that I assure you. If the king will not have the support of its people, the land has to suffer but in the end the king will fall too ...after a period of tyrany.

I think tha king should be as powerfull as half of the lands people. that way if land is divided in two, kings position will be threatened. I am not sure how to acomplish that, but i am sure i don't want a kingship change too soon because that way i will never find out what could go good or wrong.

THESE ARE IDEAS, PLANS, NOT FIXED DECISIONS.

If it sais the you sign to obey your king if you apply for citizenship, then so it is. Afterall A KING is a king, not a president. People of that country OBEY their king, regardless if they like him or not...or if they do not obey him, the king can take actions against them.


No king will be dethroned by one or two people, a king is symbol of an entire land and it will be changed when the land, meaning majority usualy, thinks so.

I am not sure if kicking someone out of the land should be done so easy...i supposed not..so i'll see how i will do that.

The land should function properly also WITHOUT a king, because lets be honest, how many of you play so long. Its a handfull of people that realy have age, but others, kings too, might quit unannounced at some point. Its a sad fact, but its also a reality i should consider when doing sometinhg that involves other people. Not only that, but the land should function also without the king in order to keep stress and chores off the kings shoulders.


Anything unclear?

PS: i think rules are made to be broken, but i see the kingship issue from perspective of honor, not moderator/strict rules perspective. Try to see my point.

[ladytwin]

*wonders where she belongs because Tara Town in in the underworld but demons haveno real home here*

i feel at home any where *chuckles* and demons can belong in any land can i have all lands *winks naughty*

[Jester]

[quote name='dragonrider7' date='19 October 2009 - 06:36 AM' timestamp='1255955808' post='45192']
I agree with you!! ........ rules are always there.....but it is up to us whether to follow it.............. a land should have all kinds of people (theives, rebels, murderers etc) ...if everyone agree and obey the laws then there wont be anything interesting in the land :-) .....this is what the rider's says....


btw....what is the law for the sky :-) ?
[/quote]

If the King doesn't catch you, you can't get in trouble. Its that simple.

[Sharpwind]

I like the whole idea of citizenship and Kings

I think it already has made the game more interesting

What I want to know is if it will be easy to change citizenships?

Will anyone be able to forfeit his citizenship at any point ?

Edited October 21, 2009 by Sharpwind

[Muratus del Mur]

Its a delicate question

"Citizens" obey the rules of the land. You should be able to change citizenship if you so want but in a way that will not alow you to flee the laws of your land whenever you crossed them.

Right now, i am thinking of a citizenship score

For example you have 10 points LR, 5 GG, 0 MB and 30 Necro .. indicating your evolution as a citizen of those lands.
I am still far from a just system... but we dont need a just system, unjust systems are fun too, in their own malefic way.

At the end is about how you can get punished or cought and what harm you can actualy do. I should remind you that the citizenship rules or land laws call them however, will not be reinforced by me but by the land, represented by its king and other citizens

We shall see...

[Grido]

is it possible to be a citizen of multiple lands in MD?

In reality, for instance, my grandma is a citizen of both Australia and Britain, so wondered if it'd be possible in MD?

[Yrthilian]

This is an intresting subject.

I have a question i may have more as i typr

When one become a citizen. Will this give them access to the land they are a citizen of?
As in will this open the gates that are normaly locked to them?

For the ballance of kingship.
Well this is something very difficult to code into the system
i beleve if it is made mechanical then one will find a way to use the system
to force a change that might not be welcome to all. (no i am not saying this as
a way to hold power).

I would think if there is enough people to want a change in kingship
it might be an idea to have on the king account or on the player running the king account
a meter of sorts. As in a way to measure and truthfully measuer when people thing of the king
and how well he is running things. Something like a mini vote system may be.
I am not to sure but this might be a way to look at it.

For the citizenship.
I think the idea of citizenship point system could work.
But i would think it might be a good idea to limit how ofthen one can change
there citizenship. As in only allowed to chage once a mont or quarter of year.
this would limit the jumping from one land citizenship to another everyday.
The point system might also give more points for thoughs that stay as one citizen for a longer
time. So for example for each week you gain 1 point. this is so for say 3/4 months. The after
that time you gain 2 points for another 6 months and so on.

This would show what land you are most associated with and show your loyalties to.
i dont know if this would work or if it is a good idea but just something i was thinking of.
while writing this reply.

Now i cant remember most of the other stuff so i will post again later

[Muratus del Mur]

Most ppl want to "be safe", to be able to jump from one land to an other or to excuse their actions by saying they belong to more lands...to avoid responsability in a way. Also some already think of ways to dethrone the kings hoping for new ones. It happens in politics, it happens all the time.

I am sorry for them.

[Shadowseeker]

Actually, the interesting thing is more..what's the relationship between alliance and the land affiliation, and citizenship?

I mean, being in an alliance belonging to the land of your citizenship is usually a given, but I'd like to see some seperation here.

Perhaps make alliances be based in a land, and granting specific stat bonus like already, however make the regen timers be varied according to your citizenship? And make those show up..like, You are in the GG alliance Golemus golemicarum, get the stats like already..however, your land affiliation belongs to Necrovion since you're a citizen of that, and thus you get that housing and those regen timers.

Would be more interesting if you ask me.

[Daemon Torvez]

I think it's logical and would be more intuitive for new players if players were factioned to a specific Land, either by free choice or application for admission. And that the use of Alliances was only done so to explain the RP or hard coded two way relationship between various Factions. I think it'd be better to use Guilds as a means to allow members of factions to join into smaller like minded groups. These guilds could also be used a different political parties or in keeping with a feudal system, Guilds could denote royal families.

This way players can still have their small run groups (Guilds) that are currently called Alliances and MD would have it's needed lands with players grouped in them (Factions). These Guilds could work together for their land for example, work to unsuper their lands current Ruler or protect the ruler such as the Musketeers; develop the culture of their lands through unified RP and writing; Function as a royal family with each one vying for the Rulers favor; or function as a traditional guild as merchants, traders, or educators; or as a small unique unified group: pirates, traveling circus etc.

But using factions or alliances in any other way can be too confusing for they are not being used in conjunction with their RL definitions that most people already know and understand. MD needs multiple levels of player interaction; that for whole lands and that for smaller player driven themes, but please keep this structure intuitive and logical.