Citizenship

[Nimrodel]

I don't understand the concept. For instance, If you opt for the citizenship of MB and want to join an alliance in LR, where will you belong to? LR or MB? Can someone explain the concept to me?

[awiiya]

I think theoretically your alliance and your citizenship should match up. If you deserve citizenship, then you are fully committed to your land. This is not a passing fancy, as some alliances are. Citizenship is a serious deal

Awi

Edited October 22, 2009 by awiiya

[de la Rey]

Then, once you chose your citizenship, you can only sign up for alliances within that land?
I believe this is quite alright.

[Chad]

In my opinion, it shouldn't be like that. Alliances have nothing to do with the citizenship issue I believe.

For example, a player is a citizen of Loreroot, then he/she is a member of the CoE, but he quits and joined the KotB, is it possible to also change his/her citizenship just because he/she joined the alliance of MB? Because if you look at it the other way around, I think it's not possible, you can change an alliance but you can't change your citizeship. Alliances differs from lands, so it should be out of the question. Just an opinion.

[de la Rey]

If you get citizenship within a land, yet you enroll into a foreign alliance, then the citizenship changes too?

Each player should be entitled to three things: a Land, to belong to a land wether is or isn`t a member of an alliance of that land, an alliance and a guild (which would be a cross-borders organisation).

If one moves from CoE to KotB, then the land should be changed also.
But then that makes no sense, it`s nothing unusual, there are no restraints and citizenship has no purpose.
It is impossible to be from Loreroot and be a part of the Sentinels at the same time.

I say once you choose your land, then you can be a part only of alliances from that land (like, taking the example of Loreroot, are the Savelites and CoE) or from guilds, if no alliance wants you. But guilds should be marked accordingly and be considered of lower state than alliances.

[Chad]

[quote]But then that makes no sense, it`s nothing unusual, there are no restraints and [b]citizenship has no purpose.[/b]
It is impossible to be from Loreroot and be a part of the Sentinels at the same time.
[/quote]

I believe it has a purpose, that's why it exists.

And the second line is answerable by roleplaying, like Ailith I believe, she was once a member of Dimensional Shifters which belongs to the Archives, but due to her character roleplay, she became a Sentinel now, the leader of NS.

[Nimrodel]

A few doubts.

Consider Mr. Noob who has been in LR Ever since he has managed to defeat the LR guards. Now due to internal politics in the GotR alliance, he quit GotR. He doesnt want to join the crafters, savelites or the CotE because they are way away from his charecter. But then the principles he believes in, are shared by the members of GG. He doesnt want to leave LR, because he knows, wherever he will be, his loyalties will be towards his home. What should he do?

Now, in heat of a patriotic moment, he selects LR as his homeland, and later on regrets it.. Because of the fact that he is kicked out from GotR and due to some misunderstanding, he is shunned by all the other alliances of LR as well. Then what is he to do? Can he change the citizenship to something else?

If Mr. Nöob is being stupid, and he wants to mislead people about his citizenship, selects underground as his home land, does it mean that he will be joining dst's alliance?

[Burns]

What if i told you that alliance hopping is not an option anyway?
If you feel comitted to something, and really comitted, then you CAN'T change your alliance anyway, so there would also be no need to change your land, at any time...

it was pretty popular in the last few weeks to 'fall to darkness', like Jester, Ailith, and Pample (to name a few veterans we all know) did, which should be a reason for a king to dismiss those citizens if they do it to an extent which implies they don't fit the land anymore, but this is pretty much the only reason to change citizenship AT ALL!

If you don't feel at home ina ny land, don't pick one!
If you don't think an allies targets are _perfectly_ fitting your own, don't join!

Do you need stat-boni to RP? Does the 40 min cooldown help you with developing your role?
Blessed were the days when allies were something special, for the crème de la crème of players...

and now you suggest that citizenship should meet the same fate? another thing that people change like their socks?

[Nimrodel]

[quote name='Burns' date='22 October 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1256201571' post='45430']
What if i told you that alliance hopping is not an option anyway?
If you feel comitted to something, and really comitted, then you CAN'T change your alliance anyway, so there would also be no need to change your land, at any time...

it was pretty popular in the last few weeks to 'fall to darkness', like Jester, Ailith, and Pample (to name a few veterans we all know) did, which should be a reason for a king to dismiss those citizens if they do it to an extent which implies they don't fit the land anymore, but this is pretty much the only reason to change citizenship AT ALL!

If you don't feel at home ina ny land, don't pick one!
If you don't think an allies targets are _perfectly_ fitting your own, don't join!

Do you need stat-boni to RP? Does the 40 min cooldown help you with developing your role?
Blessed were the days when allies were something special, for the crème de la crème of players...

and now you suggest that citizenship should meet the same fate? another thing that people change like their socks?

[/quote]

You dont seem to get the point Burns... Fine. Let me put it this way. You belong to timbuctoo, and want to emmigrate to ougadougou for a job that suits your needs, does that mean your loyalties have to lie with ougadougou? Can you forget timbuctoo? The place where you actualy grew up just because you find a better job? That is not country hopping... Its called using oppurtunities to help yourself grow up. Why should MD be different?

And its human to make a mistake. If you think you've made a mistake you rectify. If you think after a period of time that you have made a mistake joining alliance xyz one tries to rectify it. Just because some people misuse that option isn't a reason to punish all the other players who never thought about using it in that way.

-gets ready for another negative rep-

P.S.: timbuctoo and ougadougou are real places.

[Observer]

There is a difference between finding a "job" and joining the military in another country without being sure if it'll go to war without knowing if that country will go to war with your motherland. I think some people could be citizens of a country and at the same time be an archivist for example.

But being citizen of LR and joining the KoB is asking for a conflict of interest. Therefore I believe that surely for joining the military alliances you need be citizen of the land. Alliances that just happen to be in a land might accept members from other lands (I'm mainly thinking of alliances not stationed in one of the 4 kingdoms). But one way or another, you should think carefully about which land you wish to join and why you do so for the implications may be big (I sure hope they will be).

[Firsanthalas]

I think that is the thing about citizenship. It should be a big deal and should not be entered into lightly. If you become a citizen of a land you probably shouldn't be joining an alliance in another land, at least not one that could potentially see you at odds with your land at a later point. For instance, little Johnny joins MB as a citizen and then enters the Sentinels. Later on war breaks out between the Sentinels and Knights of the Bell. If he were to engage in the fighting, he would be attacking fellow citizens. If he refused, he would be letting the Sentinel alliance down. In short, if you become a citizen of one land and enter an alliance in another your setting yourself up for a possible conflict of interests. The one exception I can think of off the top of my head would be the Archives. The Archivists, Advertisers etc are neutral, so I wouldn't see a problem for people of other lands joining them.
To be honest I also think that citizenship could and hopefully will be a way for people to show their affiliation with a land without the need to be in an alliance. So if a person falls out with their alliance and isn't keen on the other alliances of the land, they are still seen as a part of that land, despite not being in an alliance. It may also help show diversity in the neutral alliances and guilds where people of different lands work together despite their different citizenships. Providing of course, citizenship of a particular land doesn't become a prerequisite for joining such an alliance.

[de la Rey]

Well, this is one difficult conversation.

Esmerelda, if you belong to a country and you pledge your allegiance to the secret service of another, that`s treason.

A citizen of the land is by all means a civilian. If he wants to become more active and help protect its borders, he signs in for one of the military alliances of THAT land. If he doesn`t want to have anything to do with the military, he signs with an alliance or guild without borders. If he wants just to roam around freely, he just remains a citizen of that land.

Now, by role-play or by wp, citiyenship might be able to be changed. But you cannot let it be freely changed, like socks. And its stupid to allow citizenship in a land and membership into an alliance of another land. It`s like, I`m a citizen of Romania and I want to sign up in the japanese regular army. Plus: in MD, would it be a good idea to be a citizen of Loreroot and a member of the GGG? How can you be a citizen of a land and a member into an alliance who might decide to attack your land? What`s that called?

And.. To avoid confusion, alliances should be those entities bound to a land, while guilds should be neutral and 'international' organisations.

Edited October 22, 2009 by de la Rey

[phantasm]

I think alliance jumping is something that has plagued these lands too often. Most people in alliances are dedicated to them, but there are a few who are fickle and on whims jump from one to another. There are also those who feel they need to direct alliances and jump them trying to put their influences into the alliance. I think the citizenship will help lower that. Exactly like de la rey said to belong to one land and to join an alliance in another is treason. Punishable in any country by death. An alliance is not a small matter like ,"oh I want to join an alliance today i think ill pick *closes eyes and shoves finger on the map* This one!!"

They should be a lifelong commitment to not only being a part of, but improving the alliance. Jumping "ship" in times when the alliance is in struggles or when war comes along is going AWOL in my book. That's why most alliances won't even take mp3 or mp4 unless they have ALOT of days on them and are dedicated to the game.

[cryxus]

Does citizenship mean that the crafters will switch to what all guilds should be in my opinion, something that isnt affiliated with any land because it is affiliated with all of the people? ...hmmm... guilds working for the greater good of all people... provocative... but whatever, crafters can dabble in all the LR affairs they want, though, and claim neutrailty although that seems counter-intuitive to me.

[de la Rey]

[quote name='cryxus' date='22 October 2009 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1256221673' post='45455']
Guilds working for the greater good of all people... provocative... but whatever, crafters can dabble in all the LR affairs they want, though, and claim neutrailty although that seems counter-intuitive to me.
[/quote]

Usually guilds work for themselves, not for the good of others. Of course, there are exceptions.

If there`s a war, a guild can decide to support one side, the other, both or none of them. In case an alliance attacks members of a guild, as retaliation for meddling with the so called neutral status, the guild might choose to set an embargo on tradeable goods over that alliance, and so on.

The possibilities are innumerable. I strongly believe lands, alliances and guilds should differentiate and the relations between them should be reglemented.

[cryxus]

[quote]Usually guilds work for themselves, not for the good of others. Of course, there are exceptions.[/quote]


I'm thinking in MD terms, not like a thief's guild which would be more akin to an alliance in MD.

here guilds such as the Archivists, Legend Speakers, Advertisers all do work for the good of MD as a whole, although it seems that most of them are winking out of existance now.

While I agree with you if you were looking at the classical definition of guilds i personally feel that here in MD guilds are working for the good of all of MD, and those that are allied with a land are called alliances... just my view on things and my view on why guilds are given such a higher degree of immunity.


~Cryxus

[de la Rey]

[quote name='cryxus' date='22 October 2009 - 06:22 PM' timestamp='1256224935' post='45462']
i personally feel that here in MD guilds are working for the good of all of MD (...), just my view on things and my view on why guilds are given such a higher degree of immunity.
[/quote]

I agree with you, but this is just theory speaking. As I see things, a guild should be formed with a higher purpose in mind, than to serve the partisan wish of one or the other. But who can quarantee they shall remain in line and not cross their principles? I`m thinking hypothetically, of course, but this is what I do, think of all (or at least those that come to mind after some analysis) possible developments and outcomes.

Let`s say that for the sake of the game (to add some pepper and salt) the Archivists start forging some papers in order to help an alliance against another (decision taken after heavy negotiations), what is to be done then? Would Mur say, ''abide thy code of conduct or be disbanded''?

Each guild should have the right to choose its own destiny and path to follow. This is the natural way to separate the worthy from the mediocre, this is the only way one can learn.

------------------
I`m sorry if i have an appetence for complicating things, but this is just me, speaking my mind.

[stormrunner]

just a small note on all this

mercenary

adjective 1. working or acting merely for money or other reward; venal. 2. hired to serve in a foreign army, guerrilla organization, etc. noun 3. a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army. 4. any hireling.

Edited October 22, 2009 by stormrunner

[dst]

de la Ray is right.At least concerning SI. SI is working only for itself. So far nothing and nobody convinced me to work for others' good. Although...but neah...I still think it's a conspiracy...

[Udgard]

[quote name='cryxus' date='22 October 2009 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1256221673' post='45455']
Does citizenship mean that the crafters will switch to what all guilds should be in my opinion, something that isnt affiliated with any land because it is affiliated with all of the people? ...hmmm... guilds working for the greater good of all people... provocative... but whatever, crafters can dabble in all the LR affairs they want, though, and claim neutrailty although that seems counter-intuitive to me.
[/quote]

Hopefully, yes. As soon as I heard about the possible kingship election on Loreroot (which is around the time of necro election), I submitted a request to Mur to change the crafter's land affiliation to the neutral archives (this is something Kragel wanted as well, IIRC). While I am personally very attached to Loreroot, I want the best for the guild and association with a mainland seems counterintuitive with the guild's neutral nature. I hurriedly requested the land change before the election started because I don't want it to be misunderstood as a dislike toward any candidate, but because the land association itself does not suit the guild well, now that Lands are ruled by Kings. The change to land affiliation has not been granted/done yet, but I hope it will pretty soon.

[cryxus]

Well the archivists really shouldnt be favoring one land over another, it is their duty to archive as much lore as they can, although i do see your point. I think that if they did drop neutrality, however they would easily discredit themselves, as well as open themselves up to attack from outside sources, and do a fair bit to negate their previous work... that's just my opinion... when people see weakness in those that are supposed to be working for all they have a tendency to attack it.


P.S. sorry this post was way late because i got preoccupied

Edited October 22, 2009 by cryxus

[de la Rey]

[quote name='stormrunner' date='22 October 2009 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1256226695' post='45468']
mercenary
adjective 1. working or acting merely for money or other reward; venal. 2. hired to serve in a foreign army, guerrilla organization, etc. noun 3. a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army. 4. any hireling.
[/quote]

Stormrunner, I believe no guild would qualify for the term ''mercenary'', for the simple reason that being a hired hand requires a state of servitude to the employer. And I believe no guild would submit to an alliance, or King/Queen.

It`s not servitude, it`s strictly business. And by the way, even mercenaries may have honour.

[stormrunner]

you need to meet more mercs ray. some may have honor not all and it was more for the topic over all then the guilds

[de la Rey]

I know, [b]stormrunner[/b].

I hope the whole idea of citizenship is based on something serious, on what can`t be bypassed easily.

I may have a relative sense of morality, but I am picky when it comes to using it. Mercs are everywhere. The difference is within them, it depends on what they do with freedom of choice.

[Firsanthalas]

On the subject of the Crafters and neutrality.
I'll say this now and I believe that the others in Loreroot would not object. I would not, nor I believe others in Loreroot expect the Crafters to act in any manner that would affect their neutrality and impartiallity. Thus, if for some reason Loreroot were to be embroiled in, lets say a war, the Crafters would not be expected to particpate and indeed, others would be expected to treat them as a neutral party. It is important for a group like the Crafters to be allowed to do their work and for everyone to benefit from their work equally. I would never intentionally do anything to jeapordise that fact and I believe neither would anyone else. Im just saying this here so that people are clear on that matter.